Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1408 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #42211 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 10:30 AM
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I have a long-winded question about adding a sub (pretty much sold on PSA) and which room to place it:

We are in the very early stages of converting a den from a gathering/entertainment spot for teenagers to a sitting area for adults. Kids are (almost) gone, so no need for gaming etc. I (we) envision little TV/movie use in that area, but quite a bit of music. That could possibly change to more TV as time goes on, but I am doubtful. I want to replace the two BIC F-12s that are there now with a decent sub. I initially planned to get a 15" (probably sealed) PSA sub. Then I thought it might be better to move my Epik Legend (sealed, 12" dual opposed) from the MBR to the den, and put the new PSA in the MBR. We do a lot of TV/movie watching in the MBR. I anticipate that the time spent listening to music in the MBR will probably be done in the "new" den instead, so maybe a vented (15"?) sub would be better for the MBR than the Legend.

The room dimensions are approximately the same in both rooms: 18' X 14' X 8'(MBR) or 9' (den). The den has concrete floor overlaid with wood laminate. The MBR is currently carpeted but plans are to rip that out (may be a few years down the road) and replace with wood laminate. The MBR also has more "open" area than the den which has practically none.

I welcome any suggestions but don't want duals in either setting. We have a living room setup with one V1800 (and another or V1801 some time in the future), so neither of these two rooms will be the "primary" movie watching area.

I am now thinking that I should decide the best spot for the existing Epik Legend and then decide which PSA sub is the best fit for the remaining room.

Is there any upside/downside for a down-firing sub in either location? Does carpeting vs wood laminate alter that equation?
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post #42212 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Hi Jeffrey

Here's exactly what I have been doing


*After running Audyssey, I make sure DEQ and DynVol are off. And change crossovers to 80hz.
*I put the umik-1 in the same place as the Audyssey mic.
*I open the REW tone generator and set it to Pink Noise and select "speaker cal." and set it to -30dBfs.
*I then turn my AVR master volume to 0dB and press play on the Tone Generator. I check inputs hdmi1, 2,3,4,5,and 6.


My subs usually come back spot on or maybe a dB low(which is close enough and well within the margin of error between the different mics)

My speakers come back at between 79 - 80dB


If I use the AVR test tone (instead of REWs tone generator) my speakers will measure very close to 75dB,usually fluxuating between 74.9 and 75.4dB and the subs will be around 77-79dB.
BUT, here's the thing - using the AVR's tone DISABLES Audyssey's room EQ and as I don't listen without Audyssey REQ in normal usage - I don't see the point in setting the levels with it disengaged

Looking at your last post, it looks like your last tests showed similar kind of results I'm getting?

..... Well I went to high school with Pat Rafter(not sure if you remember him) Top bloke, as nice as you'd ever meet.
Cheers
Jamie
Jamie, I responded to Mike's post and totally agree with him and confirmed what he's saying, the differences with Audy engaged trim results are within +- .5-1dB with regards to Audy trim levels not engaged. Like I mentioned earlier a lot of folks use Audy to set trims (levels) and distances (delays) and then manually EQ their systems, I believe it's a constant and not so much a variable as the TG with regards to generating a 75dB signal at -30dBFS. I wonder if the Windows audio settings could affect both the AVR (output) and UMIK (input) with regards to the TG signal. Like I mentioned, I got very similar results with the meters and UMIK when playing a -30dBFS MV 0 signal from the TG, all 4dB hot..................................

Speaking of Pat Rafter, he was one of my favorite players, I watched him just coming up in the tennis ranks as a young pup, he was always a fan favorite, he now coaches a female USA women player Coco V.

My next move is to verify the output of the TG with regards to reference 75dB at -30dBFS at MV 0, I'll figure it out mate.............

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #42213 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Cost is not a factor, right now I have a single VTF3 MK5.
They will each offer you something different. For music I don't think you can do better than the Submersives, Mark just has done a great job on the DSP calibration. For size, S1 has a lot of performance, but IMO, quad 18 inch drivers with the dual S3601s will something to experience. It will give you the most headroom and bang for your buck plus the outstanding CS from Tom. The Rythmik F18 is a great sub as well plus the upcoming G25HP looks pretty impressive on paper as well. Still I would say the 18 inch drivers have something special about them.
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post #42214 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 11:37 AM
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There's definitely something to be said about having that great customer service. Knowing that when I order subs I'll have them in like 2 days and if there's a problem with them it will get fixed in a timely fashion. I think dual S3601 will give me a ton of headroom and have nice tactile response in my smallish room.
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post #42215 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Ames View Post
I have a long-winded question about adding a sub (pretty much sold on PSA) and which room to place it:

We are in the very early stages of converting a den from a gathering/entertainment spot for teenagers to a sitting area for adults. Kids are (almost) gone, so no need for gaming etc. I (we) envision little TV/movie use in that area, but quite a bit of music. That could possibly change to more TV as time goes on, but I am doubtful. I want to replace the two BIC F-12s that are there now with a decent sub. I initially planned to get a 15" (probably sealed) PSA sub. Then I thought it might be better to move my Epik Legend (sealed, 12" dual opposed) from the MBR to the den, and put the new PSA in the MBR. We do a lot of TV/movie watching in the MBR. I anticipate that the time spent listening to music in the MBR will probably be done in the "new" den instead, so maybe a vented (15"?) sub would be better for the MBR than the Legend.

The room dimensions are approximately the same in both rooms: 18' X 14' X 8'(MBR) or 9' (den). The den has concrete floor overlaid with wood laminate. The MBR is currently carpeted but plans are to rip that out (may be a few years down the road) and replace with wood laminate. The MBR also has more "open" area than the den which has practically none.

I welcome any suggestions but don't want duals in either setting. We have a living room setup with one V1800 (and another or V1801 some time in the future), so neither of these two rooms will be the "primary" movie watching area.

I am now thinking that I should decide the best spot for the existing Epik Legend and then decide which PSA sub is the best fit for the remaining room.

Is there any upside/downside for a down-firing sub in either location? Does carpeting vs wood laminate alter that equation?
Since neither of the rooms you are planning on adding the new sub in will be used for movie watching then I think I would probably go with a sealed sub and I think the 15S or the S1801 would both be good choices. There is no real upside or downside to down firing. IMO the 15S is the best choice if you want to save a little money while the S1801 would be the better choice if you wanted a little a more output capability.

I would probably choose the to go with the S1801 because I would rather have more sub than I need than wish I had more sub than I have... YMMV.
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post #42216 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
There's definitely something to be said about having that great customer service. Knowing that when I order subs I'll have them in like 2 days and if there's a problem with them it will get fixed in a timely fashion. I think dual S3601 will give me a ton of headroom and have nice tactile response in my smallish room.
It will probably be unreal, those two subs, in your smallish room. Extension to prob 8 or 9 hz... crazy.
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post #42217 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
There's definitely something to be said about having that great customer service. Knowing that when I order subs I'll have them in like 2 days and if there's a problem with them it will get fixed in a timely fashion. I think dual S3601 will give me a ton of headroom and have nice tactile response in my smallish room.
Yeah PSA's customer service is incredible and it really adds peace of mind to the ordering process.

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It will probably be unreal, those two subs, in your smallish room. Extension to prob 8 or 9 hz... crazy.
Agreed. It would be incredible.

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post #42218 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 12:00 PM
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S3601's should sound decent for music too right?
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post #42219 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
S3601's should sound decent for music too right?
While I can't speak for the S3601 directly I do have it's little brother the S1801 and it sounds great with music. I use it in the living room set up which is at least 80% music use.
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post #42220 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 12:23 PM
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I have dual s3601's in my smallish living room and they are way, way more than I'd ever need. I think you will really like them both for music and movies. They can be subtle and musical and then destroy your house when called upon.
That and the first class customer service from Tom is the icing on the cake.
Best of luck in your quest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
There's definitely something to be said about having that great customer service. Knowing that when I order subs I'll have them in like 2 days and if there's a problem with them it will get fixed in a timely fashion. I think dual S3601 will give me a ton of headroom and have nice tactile response in my smallish room.
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post #42221 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
S3601's should sound decent for music too right?
I exclusively listened to music on pure direct with my JBL S310 towers until I got my PSA S3601. I previously had ported SVS subs and didn't like the sound. Once the PSA arrived I have been slamming stereo music and have not looked back it sounds fantastic!!!!!! Movies, Music it does not matter. I dream of the day I get another

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post #42222 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 05:14 PM
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Quick REW question guys. I'm testing out my center on it's own and I can't figure out how to make the type of visual graph that I see others posting. When i test 50hz to 20,000 hz the lines end up all over the damn place, so wondering if there's something in REW to get a better visual on what response I'm getting taht's not so jagged. Attached is my graph for my center and a comparison frequency repsonse I found online of what I'm trying to get. Is the other response just that much better, or do they do something in the settings?
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post #42223 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
I exclusively listened to music on pure direct with my JBL S310 towers until I got my PSA S3601. I previously had ported SVS subs and didn't like the sound. Once the PSA arrived I have been slamming stereo music and have not looked back it sounds fantastic!!!!!! Movies, Music it does not matter. I dream of the day I get another
What size room?
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post #42224 of 52935 Old 05-10-2018, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Quick REW question guys. I'm testing out my center on it's own and I can't figure out how to make the type of visual graph that I see others posting. When i test 50hz to 20,000 hz the lines end up all over the damn place, so wondering if there's something in REW to get a better visual on what response I'm getting taht's not so jagged. Attached is my graph for my center and a comparison frequency repsonse I found online of what I'm trying to get. Is the other response just that much better, or do they do something in the settings?
All speakers should use the 1/6 smoothing with the exception of subs which should be no smoothing. I see you haven't read the rew guide that is in the REW thread?
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post #42225 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 08:34 AM
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What size room?
I have an L shaped room with no door when you enter. The theater part is about 24 long by 12 wide with 7 or 8 foot ceiling. I am unsure how large the opening is at the back of the room forming the L. I can measure later but is the size of a small office, the rest of the basement laundry room is separated by wood paneling so not even a real wall.

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post #42226 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
I exclusively listened to music on pure direct with my JBL S310 towers until I got my PSA S3601. I previously had ported SVS subs and didn't like the sound. Once the PSA arrived I have been slamming stereo music and have not looked back it sounds fantastic!!!!!! Movies, Music it does not matter. I dream of the day I get another
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S3601's should sound decent for music too right?

I have two s3000i subs and they sound fantastic with music! I prefer a sealed over a ported for music and they do not disappoint!!!!

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post #42227 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Quick REW question guys. I'm testing out my center on it's own and I can't figure out how to make the type of visual graph that I see others posting. When i test 50hz to 20,000 hz the lines end up all over the damn place, so wondering if there's something in REW to get a better visual on what response I'm getting taht's not so jagged. Attached is my graph for my center and a comparison frequency repsonse I found online of what I'm trying to get. Is the other response just that much better, or do they do something in the settings?
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All speakers should use the 1/6 smoothing with the exception of subs which should be no smoothing. I see you haven't read the rew guide that is in the REW thread?
There's also variable smoothing.

The guide that ereed is referring to is linked in my sig.
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post #42228 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 10:34 AM
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Hey guys, been about 3 years since I logged in here, but just wanted to say that my XV15se that I bought 3-4 years ago is still working great. While one can always have more bass, I never find myself wanting while watching movies or gaming. If I ever upgrade someday, I'll go right back to these guys.

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post #42229 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 01:51 PM
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post #42230 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 02:30 PM
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I thought I would chime in on the Port noise drama that seems to be brought up every few weeks. My buddy bought a V3601 and I went to his house and ran REW and found the best location up front as he did not want the sub anywhere in the rear. His house is huge and the sub is in his family room on the 1st floor which is open to the entire 1st floor. The sub anchors his 4K tv and sits an inch to the left of his tv and measures +/- 4.5db before running ODY. I raised the sub trim 8db hot after running AUDY and listened to some demanding movie scenes and music and the 1st words that come to my mind is BUTTER. Every scene or song was as smooth as butter. I did not hear a hint of port noise and I also engaged Dynamic EQ on some material and the sound still had that smooth as butter feeling. I'm going to be back at his house in a few weeks to throw some more material at it and he's already talking about adding a 2nd . I think we can finally put the port noise drama to bed.

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post #42231 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 02:55 PM
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Hey guys, been about 3 years since I logged in here, but just wanted to say that my XV15se that I bought 3-4 years ago is still working great. While one can always have more bass, I never find myself wanting while watching movies or gaming. If I ever upgrade someday, I'll go right back to these guys.
The two bolded sections above are directly correlated with each other.
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post #42232 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 03:51 PM
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S3601's should sound decent for music too right?
More than just decent. Dual S3601s should provide you the best of both worlds. Music and movies.

My advice is to do your setup (run auto-EQ or manual) with Room Size at 12:00. Then adjust to taste. For me, Room Size Large for movies and dialed back towards Small for movies.
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post #42233 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 04:05 PM
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The PSA s3601 really has me intrigued. I currently have a Rythmik FV18 on order, but I would really like to try one of these as well.

I really like the sound of the Rythmiks but I’m assuming this would be right up there too. I’m a 60ht/40 music in an open floor plan. Would these two be comparable in output for HT?

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post #42234 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 04:10 PM
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The PSA s3601 really has me intrigued. I currently have a Rythmik FV18 on order, but I would really like to try one of these as well.

I really like the sound of the Rythmiks but I’m assuming this would be right up there too. I’m a 60ht/40 music in an open floor plan. Would these two be comparable in output for HT?
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post #42235 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 04:39 PM
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The PSA s3601 really has me intrigued. I currently have a Rythmik FV18 on order, but I would really like to try one of these as well.



I really like the sound of the Rythmiks but I’m assuming this would be right up there too. I’m a 60ht/40 music in an open floor plan. Would these two be comparable in output for HT?


I don’t have the numbers for the FV18 but have no doubt the S3601 with dual 18 inch drivers and a 1700 watt amp has substantial output over 30hz than the FV18


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
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post #42236 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I don’t have the numbers for the FV18 but have no doubt the S3601 with dual 18 inch drivers and a 1700 watt amp has substantial output over 30hz than the FV18
More like +4dB over 50Hz, but -5~-7dB under 25Hz...

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
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post #42237 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 05:05 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

It May seem crazy, but I run both the v3601 and v1801 at the same exact levels. At 130 ish db in my room, I finally found the level where my v3601 kept pushing on past v1801. It didn’t sound bad, just warm cone and the v3601 wasn’t. I turned it down immediately but I assume that was limits. I never play that high unless I’m testing, very drunk or having a party... so the same levels the stay. At reference, the v1801 keeps right up and has no issues. This may bother anyone that has OCD but ehhhh. Believe me, I tried the v1801 near field and my room just wont allow it (not a dedicated room). At any rate, I’ll be trading v1801 for v3601 in a few months or towards whatever new monster they release.

Am I crazy to think the v1801 will play just as loud as v3601, just with less spl? Same drivers and amp.

I haven’t moved from this configuration in quite sometime as it’s flat af, sounds great, and less to dial in . I’m happy!

Edit: I found a level I keep it at for music, movies, tv, etc. Its 1:00 on sub amp, -11 on AVR and room size largest. Rocks the room and my neighborhood!

Last edited by David Charles; 05-11-2018 at 05:11 PM.
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post #42238 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
More like +4dB over 50Hz, but -5~-7dB under 25Hz...
I am not seeing those kind of differences you noted even though PSA is averages, the separation is too great. Help me understand please as I am keen to know



dio, FV18(12Hz Tuning)
Sing. 18

94 99.7 106.7 110.1 112.7 115 116.1 117.2 118.2 118.5 119.1 118.8

Rythmik Audio, FV18(16Hz Tuning)
Sing. 18

/ 99 106.5 111.3 114.6 116.2 117.4 118.3 118.7 118.9 119.4 118.9



S3601

16Hz - 25Hz: 117.3 dB
31Hz - 50Hz: 131.1 dB
63Hz - 100Hz: 134.5 dB
16Hz - 100Hz: 130.1 dB
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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
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post #42239 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I thought I would chime in on the Port noise drama that seems to be brought up every few weeks. My buddy bought a V3601 and I went to his house and ran REW and found the best location up front as he did not want the sub anywhere in the rear. His house is huge and the sub is in his family room on the 1st floor which is open to the entire 1st floor. The sub anchors his 4K tv and sits an inch to the left of his tv and measures +/- 4.5db before running ODY. I raised the sub trim 8db hot after running AUDY and listened to some demanding movie scenes and music and the 1st words that come to my mind is BUTTER. Every scene or song was as smooth as butter. I did not hear a hint of port noise and I also engaged Dynamic EQ on some material and the sound still had that smooth as butter feeling. I'm going to be back at his house in a few weeks to throw some more material at it and he's already talking about adding a 2nd . I think we can finally put the port noise drama to bed.
Oh my gosh... that's so funny that you used the term "Smooth as Butter. That's literally exactly the very first thing I said to myself when I first set up my V3601's. I didn't post it because I was focused on the soul crushing bass; but when I first fired up the V3601's (after calibration) I simply smiled and said "It's like Butter." Looks like we think alike Mike.
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Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #42240 of 52935 Old 05-11-2018, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I thought I would chime in on the Port noise drama that seems to be brought up every few weeks. My buddy bought a V3601 and I went to his house and ran REW and found the best location up front as he did not want the sub anywhere in the rear. His house is huge and the sub is in his family room on the 1st floor which is open to the entire 1st floor. The sub anchors his 4K tv and sits an inch to the left of his tv and measures +/- 4.5db before running ODY. I raised the sub trim 8db hot after running AUDY and listened to some demanding movie scenes and music and the 1st words that come to my mind is BUTTER. Every scene or song was as smooth as butter. I did not hear a hint of port noise and I also engaged Dynamic EQ on some material and the sound still had that smooth as butter feeling. I'm going to be back at his house in a few weeks to throw some more material at it and he's already talking about adding a 2nd . I think we can finally put the port noise drama to bed.
Oh my gosh... that's so funny that you used the term "Smooth as Butter. That's literally exactly the very first thing I said to myself when I first set up my V3601's. I didn't post it because I was focused on the soul crushing bass; but when I first fired up the V3601's (after calibration) I simply smiled and said "It's like Butter." Looks like we think alike Mike.
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Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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