Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1409 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #42241 of 53110 Old 05-11-2018, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I am not seeing those kind of differences you noted even though PSA is averages, the separation is too great. Help me understand please as I am keen to know



dio, FV18(12Hz Tuning)
Sing. 18

94 99.7 106.7 110.1 112.7 115 116.1 117.2 118.2 118.5 119.1 118.8

Rythmik Audio, FV18(16Hz Tuning)
Sing. 18

/ 99 106.5 111.3 114.6 116.2 117.4 118.3 118.7 118.9 119.4 118.9



S3601

16Hz - 25Hz: 117.3 dB
31Hz - 50Hz: 131.1 dB
63Hz - 100Hz: 134.5 dB
16Hz - 100Hz: 130.1 dB
Rythmik FV18 is from Data-bass:



PSA S3600 is from Hometheaterreview: https://hometheaterreview.com/power-...viewed/?page=2



Then the S3601 is +2dB below 25Hz, -1dB above 50Hz or something like that... so you get the table below:



I was at work and I eyeballed the data and said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
More like +4dB over 50Hz, but -5~-7dB under 25Hz...

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Last edited by chucky7; 05-11-2018 at 07:49 PM.
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post #42242 of 53110 Old 05-11-2018, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Rythmik FV18 is from Data-bass:



PSA S3600 is from Hometheaterreview: https://hometheaterreview.com/power-...viewed/?page=2



Then the S3601 is +2dB below 25Hz, -1dB above 50Hz or something like that... so you get the table below:



But why are the numbers not even close to the table published by PSA?


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post #42243 of 53110 Old 05-11-2018, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
But why are the numbers not even close to the table published by PSA?
PSA's CEA- 2010 numbers are 1M Peak, which are 9dB higher than Data-bass's 2M RMS. I also used HTR's 2M RMS numbers in my table.
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post #42244 of 53110 Old 05-11-2018, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
PSA's CEA- 2010 numbers are 1M Peak, which are 9dB higher than Data-bass's 2M RMS. I also used HTR's 2M RMS numbers in my table.


Ah yes. Now it makes sense. I forgot about that. The FV18 is one to get then if one can accommodate the size.


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post #42245 of 53110 Old 05-11-2018, 08:14 PM
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I do have the space to accommodate the FV18. I’m thinking I will just stick with my original plan.

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post #42246 of 53110 Old 05-11-2018, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
I do have the space to accommodate the FV18. I’m thinking I will just stick with my original plan.


I think you would happy with the Rythmik especially if you are looking deep extension at a higher output. Plus the sub has low distortion so sound like sealed sub anyways. Size and form factor would be the only limiting factor which as you say you don not have.


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post #42247 of 53110 Old 05-11-2018, 08:39 PM
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I love your charts Chucky, they always make things much easier to read and compare, but surely the 31.5hz and under numbers are a little on the low side for the S3601??


The XS15Se was tested by DB and made
107.6dB at 31.5hz ,
104.2dB at 25hz
97.6dB at 20hz
93.5dB at 16hz


With 3x the power, much larger cabinet and probably close to 3x the cone area of the XS15Se, the S3601 should be a fair bit higher and the numbers given look to be only a dB or 2 more than the XS30Se was said to be (XS15se +4dB) at 16 and 20hz and actually lower than the XS30Se at 25 and 31.5hz


I know you're only going by the numbers you have but I personally think they are a tad low
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post #42248 of 53110 Old 05-11-2018, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
PSA's CEA- 2010 numbers are 1M Peak, which are 9dB higher than Data-bass's 2M RMS. I also used HTR's 2M RMS numbers in my table.
Do you happen to have a S3601 vs Cap S1 chart?
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post #42249 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Do you happen to have a S3601 vs Cap S1 chart?
For S3601, we use the numbers from above. S1 is -5dB across from S2's data-bass numbers. Then we get:


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post #42250 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 03:38 AM
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Wow that must be some driver in that S1, the PSA has 2 drivers and a bigger enclosure and is somehow still behind the S1.
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post #42251 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
You plugged in the data and calculated differences almost 100% incorrect.

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post #42252 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Ah ok wait. I see you had to estimate the 3601 output vs the 3600 that was tested. Math errors still in the higher frequencies. Your a dB off on several differences.

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post #42253 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Ah ok wait. I see you had to estimate the 3601 output vs the 3600 that was tested. Math errors still in the higher frequencies. Your a dB off on several differences.


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post #42254 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Nevermind, I'm stupid. Need more coffee.
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post #42255 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
I do have the space to accommodate the FV18. I’m thinking I will just stick with my original plan.
Yeah what you're seeing with those comparison numbers between the S3601 and the FV18 is to be expected. Usually when you're comparing a ported sub to a sealed sub of roughly the same category the ported sub will have significant stronger output from 30Hz and down, which is exactly what we see here. So if you're interested in having more output below 30Hz then I would look at ported... it's where they shine.

On the other hand if you want stronger output below 30 Hz and really want sealed subs then I would suggest either having a room that will give you excellent room gain in that realm or plan on buying more than one sub. I think Slickman with his dual sealed sub search has the right plan in mind for going that route.

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post #42256 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 10:04 AM
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Well, I'm curious the output numbers for the V1500 psa sub vs svs pb13. Since I just got that sub recently to compliment my dual svs pb13s, I find them very similar in output when measuring using rew but would like to see chucky come up with numbers for the pb13s in 20hz port mode and psa v1500 for comparison. The psa v1500 mates perfectly with my dual pb13s and using it very nearfield for TR. Very happy with it and 3 subs work very well in my room.
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post #42257 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Well, I'm curious the output numbers for the V1500 psa sub vs svs pb13. Since I just got that sub recently to compliment my dual svs pb13s, I find them very similar in output when measuring using rew but would like to see chucky come up with numbers for the pb13s in 20hz port mode and psa v1500 for comparison. The psa v1500 mates perfectly with my dual pb13s and using it very nearfield for TR. Very happy with it and 3 subs work very well in my room.
My guesstimate would be that the V1500 has a couple dB advantage above 50Hz or so, and is down a few dB below.
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post #42258 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Wow that must be some driver in that S1, the PSA has 2 drivers and a bigger enclosure and is somehow still behind the S1.
I can assure you, It is one heck of a driver as i had two S-1's and they flexed the integrity of my house. Very powerful sealed subs.
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post #42259 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
But why are the numbers not even close to the table published by PSA?


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Along with the 2m rms versus 1m peak conversion it's also important to look at other details as well. In this specific case you have dual drivers on opposing baffles. Cea-2010 has no method to compensate for the losses involved when measuring this specific design outside. Josh(data-bass) has a very good article on this and how to properly scale a design like this accurately. I have pointed this out in the past repeatedly when these "charts" are posted but this fact is always ignored.

https://data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=77

And conversely you have the mono15 measaurements from the SAME guy (brent butterworth) that are under the manufacturer's data across the ENTIRE operating bandwithd and those are also ignored in these charts.

I lost track of how many times I tried to explain why the pc13u measurements compare the way they do(makes TOTAL sense if you actually read the measurement method), how many times I tried to explain that it's not fair to use two widely different port "tunes" when comparing variable tune subs, how many times I had to explain why the XV15 data needed to be scaled because the driver wasn't facing the mic(databass even did an article on it!!!), or even trying to explain the very BASICS of this all( 1m, 2m, 3m, rms, peak. I had to point out how these charts where 3dB(!) off in the past because these basics weren't followed correctly. OR even had LIMITED cea-2010 really is in predicting how loudly the subwoofer will play with actual source material...sigh. I mean, just ONE example, people are being misled to believe the mono10 is going to sound more powerful than the hsu vtf-2 with real world use just because at ONE frequency measured outside(25hz)...the mono10 scored 2dB more. I point out the hsu is almost DOUBLE from 40hz and up. Meh, none of that matters...I mean look at the thx badge! And the mon10 uses HDF!!! Then it turns into why is tom even explaining this in this thread what sinister motive is there afoot?

avs is turning into avBs and when anyone tries to point out ANY of these considerations and potential influences in something as limited as "cea-2010" you get shouted down by the same mob-of-3.

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post #42260 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akcorr View Post
I have two s3000i subs and they sound fantastic with music! I prefer a sealed over a ported for music and they do not disappoint!!!!
The S3000i is still among our most popular models. It packs a lot of value into the size/price/performance ratio. There's never a drawback to going sealed(from power sound) you just need to ensure you have enough headroom versus the vented options that may be considered. An easy rule-of-thumb is...always ensure adequate headroom first, THEN chase extension and any other metrics that someone might prioritize..

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post #42261 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Wow that must be some driver in that S1, the PSA has 2 drivers and a bigger enclosure and is somehow still behind the S1.
That is what happens when you mix and match data sets. Unless all the subs were tested by the same gear in the same conditions, it's not apples to apples. Just a difference in temperature outdoors can change the numbers 2db. If I had to guess the S3601 is at least as strong as the S1 down low, but more like the S2 up top.
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post #42262 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
I exclusively listened to music on pure direct with my JBL S310 towers until I got my PSA S3601. I previously had ported SVS subs and didn't like the sound. Once the PSA arrived I have been slamming stereo music and have not looked back it sounds fantastic!!!!!! Movies, Music it does not matter. I dream of the day I get another
Appreciate it Benzo.. People shopping for subwoofers/speakers tend to value user feedback like that to a very high degree so it's always nice to see actual Power Sound Audio customers here in the Power Sound Audio support thread offering their real world experience with our products.

I still get weird responses(chat,phone) when someone asks..."what should I try first with your sub?" and I respond with "I'd grab your favorite concert discs, or a movie with a great soundtrack. I guess they think I should say loop the first 2 seconds of EOT

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post #42263 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post
Hey guys, been about 3 years since I logged in here, but just wanted to say that my XV15se that I bought 3-4 years ago is still working great. While one can always have more bass, I never find myself wanting while watching movies or gaming. If I ever upgrade someday, I'll go right back to these guys.
Thanks Omni, the XV15se remains one of our very best values in company history. The new 15V looks very similar and would integrate great so if/when you ever decide to add-on...just let me know.. Also, think about the trade in credit as well. That is handled on a case-by-case basis but in many scenarios it is something worth considering.

I bet I have a xs30 in trade for a new S3000i every month on average. They start out ordering a new SE upgrade and/or ICE upgrade. Then before we ship I contact them and go through all the performance gains they could expect versus trading their xs30 in for a new S3000i. So far(iirc) it has been LESS expensive to trade the xs30 in on a brand new S3000i versus upgrading(both amp and drivers). So they get a new, BETTER performing sub for less than doing the upgrades. AND---90% of the time I have the xs30 sold the same day it gets back here too. Win-win!


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post #42264 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I thought I would chime in on the Port noise drama that seems to be brought up every few weeks. My buddy bought a V3601 and I went to his house and ran REW and found the best location up front as he did not want the sub anywhere in the rear. His house is huge and the sub is in his family room on the 1st floor which is open to the entire 1st floor. The sub anchors his 4K tv and sits an inch to the left of his tv and measures +/- 4.5db before running ODY. I raised the sub trim 8db hot after running AUDY and listened to some demanding movie scenes and music and the 1st words that come to my mind is BUTTER. Every scene or song was as smooth as butter. I did not hear a hint of port noise and I also engaged Dynamic EQ on some material and the sound still had that smooth as butter feeling. I'm going to be back at his house in a few weeks to throw some more material at it and he's already talking about adding a 2nd . I think we can finally put the port noise drama to bed.
Thanks for taking the time to post this Mike. I think everyone is beginning to realize that much of the "fart box" debacle may have had some agenda behind it---or at the very least little ability to correlate things to real world listening experience. You can look at dozens if not hundreds of user posts here echoing your experience. Or, you can look at a youtune video with an iphone a inch away from a port running a sine wave. Everyone can weight each of those two scenarios as they see fit..

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post #42265 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 12:52 PM
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Had a few minutes last week to snap a couple of V1801 being built.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #42266 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 02:18 PM
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To me, in my room, the dual s3601's sound and feel louder than the two v1500's and two 15v's(four total subs)
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post #42267 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 02:45 PM
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Was trying to figure out how best to utilise my pair of 15S and then it came to me - full range for the center channel with the 210C. Very significant improvement in tactility. I dont have a seperate crossover for this config so right now I have the subs runnning from the center pre out on the receiver, with crossover at 12 oclock, so in the future will probably get something like a Behringer ultradrive 2496 to high pass the 210C at 80Hz.

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post #42268 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
To me, in my room, the dual s3601's sound and feel louder than the two v1500's and two 15v's(four total subs)
There are clear reasons why that is so. We have to be careful not to misunderstand what cea-2010 represents and how limited it is in scope. Spending a few minutes copy/pasting the work of others into a chart is easy---especially if you don't worry about properly representing the data. To understand how limited that data is and how much more information you need to accurately correlate how a subwoofer will "sound" to someone in any given environment...that's a little different. I have spent 20+ years now on this and it still fascinates me. I hope to spend 20 more years on it. But even if I can I know I'll never have all the answers. I've tried to share more thoughts on it all in the past and it seems the way I present it...just draws a lot of trolling into the thread so I try to avoid it now. I cannot compete with someone with a u-mik and a whole weekend of measurement experience

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The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep,

Last edited by Tom Vodhanel; 05-12-2018 at 03:16 PM.
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post #42269 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Had a few minutes last week to snap a couple of V1801 being built.

What is this nonsense? You are supposed to be spending every second getting this "new" product completed and released! Get back to work!

Seriously though, any idea when you will have some info about it that you can provide us with? Thanks Tom.
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post #42270 of 53110 Old 05-12-2018, 03:20 PM
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I have to admit, I got off on the wrong foot with PSA due to my own inexperience and ignorance but, once I figured it out, their **** pounds pretty hard! The CS is top notch. Im pleased.


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