Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1410 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #42271 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
What is this nonsense? You are supposed to be spending every second getting this "new" product completed and released! Get back to work!

Seriously though, any idea when you will have some info about it that you can provide us with? Thanks Tom.
there nothing to update. nothing new. I'm rowing the boat as fast I can, 364.5 days a year in the office...


The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli.


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post #42272 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
there nothing to update. nothing new. I'm rowing the boat as fast I can, 364.5 days a year in the office...





The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli.





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That’s deep...


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post #42273 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 03:30 PM
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Recent S3601 build.

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post #42274 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 03:58 PM
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[quote





The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli.





Tom V.

Power Sound Audio[/quote]


Lol. My all time favorite show! By the way what do you that 0.5 day in the year?



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post #42275 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
That is what happens when you mix and match data sets. Unless all the subs were tested by the same gear in the same conditions, it's not apples to apples. Just a difference in temperature outdoors can change the numbers 2db. If I had to guess the S3601 is at least as strong as the S1 down low, but more like the S2 up top.
+1
When I thought about the S1 and S3601, I came up with the same guesstimation as you.
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post #42276 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 04:25 PM
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I recently watched the new 4k Saving Private Ryan, and it was amazing! I did, however, have an issue with my dual V3601’s I’m trying to figure out. In the beginning Omaha Beach sequence and the battle at the end, my subs would occasionally emit some strange sounds, hard to describe, sort of like violent pumping sounds, or the driver’s flopping quickly back and forth. I’m fairly certain it wasn’t port noise, and i couldn’t identity anything in the room that might be responsible. I sent Tom an email, waiting for his thoughts on this. I’m running at about 9:00 on the gain switches, my Yamaha 3060’s sub level is at its lowest and my MV was -15. It appears to be a specific frequency causing this, but i haven’t yet identified it. It also appears that both subs are doing this. Any thoughts?


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post #42277 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I recently watched the new 4k Saving Private Ryan, and it was amazing! I did, however, have an issue with my dual V3601’s I’m trying to figure out. In the beginning Omaha Beach sequence and the battle at the end, my subs would occasionally emit some strange sounds, hard to describe, sort of like violent pumping sounds, or the driver’s flopping quickly back and forth. I’m fairly certain it wasn’t port noise, and i couldn’t identity anything in the room that might be responsible. I sent Tom an email, waiting for his thoughts on this. I’m running at about 9:00 on the gain switches, my Yamaha 3060’s sub level is at its lowest and my MV was -15. It appears to be a specific frequency causing this, but i haven’t yet identified it. It also appears that both subs are doing this. Any thoughts?


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Since this movie doesn’t have enough ULF to strain the drivers much, my guess would be signal clipping.

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post #42278 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Since this movie doesn’t have enough ULF to strain the drivers much, my guess would be signal clipping.


Thanks for your response. Tom also mentioned clipping, but how is this happening? I have the sub channel levels in the Yamaha 3060 to -10.5 (the lowest they can go), the MV volume is at -15 and the sub’s gains are at 9:00. How is this clipping occurring do you think?


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post #42279 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Wow that must be some driver in that S1, the PSA has 2 drivers and a bigger enclosure and is somehow still behind the S1.
The output comparision between S1801 and S3601


22" D x 20" W x 20.5" H includes grille


20" D x 28" W x 24" H includes grilles

The dual opposed S3601's cabinet is only 50% larger than S1801. This is the reason the S3601 is not a full 6dB across from the S1801.

S3601 is also using the 1400W SpeakerPower Amp module vs the S1's 2400W SpeaperPower Amp module.

There is also the difference in design philosophy. PSA's efficient 18" driver will get you a lot of output above 40Hz, where as JTR's powerful 18" driver will get you the same below 32Hz.

At the end of the day, the ID subwoofer market is very cut throat. Spending more $$$ on the same type of products usually yields more output and/or extension.
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post #42280 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Thanks for your response. Tom also mentioned clipping, but how is this happening? I have the sub channel levels in the Yamaha 3060 to -10.5 (the lowest they can go), the MV volume is at -15 and the sub’s gains are at 9:00. How is this clipping occurring do you think?


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You mention that the Yamaha AVR subwoofer level trim was set to -10.5 after room calibration. This could mean that you have maxed out the subwoofers ability to compensate for too much sub amp gain. Whenever you max out the calibration settings, you cannot be sure that you aren't too high on the amplifier gain setting.

I would recommend that you run your calibration until you get -9.5 or -10.0 max. At that point, you will have eliminated one of the possible causes. Good luck.
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post #42281 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Well, I'm curious the output numbers for the V1500 psa sub vs svs pb13. Since I just got that sub recently to compliment my dual svs pb13s, I find them very similar in output when measuring using rew but would like to see chucky come up with numbers for the pb13s in 20hz port mode and psa v1500 for comparison. The psa v1500 mates perfectly with my dual pb13s and using it very nearfield for TR. Very happy with it and 3 subs work very well in my room.
The PSA V1500 and the SVS PB13-Ultra are indeed quite similar:

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post #42282 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Along with the 2m rms versus 1m peak conversion it's also important to look at other details as well. In this specific case you have dual drivers on opposing baffles. Cea-2010 has no method to compensate for the losses involved when measuring this specific design outside. Josh(data-bass) has a very good article on this and how to properly scale a design like this accurately. I have pointed this out in the past repeatedly when these "charts" are posted but this fact is always ignored.

https://data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=77

And conversely you have the mono15 measaurements from the SAME guy (brent butterworth) that are under the manufacturer's data across the ENTIRE operating bandwithd and those are also ignored in these charts.

I lost track of how many times I tried to explain why the pc13u measurements compare the way they do(makes TOTAL sense if you actually read the measurement method), how many times I tried to explain that it's not fair to use two widely different port "tunes" when comparing variable tune subs, how many times I had to explain why the XV15 data needed to be scaled because the driver wasn't facing the mic(databass even did an article on it!!!), or even trying to explain the very BASICS of this all( 1m, 2m, 3m, rms, peak. I had to point out how these charts where 3dB(!) off in the past because these basics weren't followed correctly. OR even had LIMITED cea-2010 really is in predicting how loudly the subwoofer will play with actual source material...sigh. I mean, just ONE example, people are being misled to believe the mono10 is going to sound more powerful than the hsu vtf-2 with real world use just because at ONE frequency measured outside(25hz)...the mono10 scored 2dB more. I point out the hsu is almost DOUBLE from 40hz and up. Meh, none of that matters...I mean look at the thx badge! And the mon10 uses HDF!!! Then it turns into why is tom even explaining this in this thread what sinister motive is there afoot?

avs is turning into avBs and when anyone tries to point out ANY of these considerations and potential influences in something as limited as "cea-2010" you get shouted down by the same mob-of-3.

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Tom, I'm pretty sure just about everyone on this forum appreciates your helpful expertise and insight. I know I do. (When I presented my own measurements of the S3000i and the Submersive HP, I made sure to mention and adjust for the opposing baffles.)

I'd hate for you to stop or slow-down your contributing simply due to conspiracy theories about of the state of AVS (or aBS as you say) Forum. (I'm not sure who this mob-of-3 is?) I have never seen anyone attack you for simply correcting errors. Anyone who ignores fact and experience is a fool.

However, I did find it appropriate for users to call you out in the Monoprice thread. Fair or unfair, you (Tom V as in sVs) are going to be held to a high standard. As will other manufacturers, especially when posting regarding a competitor. Whether or not your intentions were truly noble, there are times that one must abstain from the appearance of evil (words I am learning to live by myself). One can be right and trolling at the same time.

A forum is what it is because of the contributions of the many, not the few. Users educating themselves is a great thing, not the downfall of AVS.

While, I have purposely avoided reading Brent's Monolith review as I was doing my own evaluation, I have now looked at his posted numbers. I don't think anyone is actively ignoring his numbers (what sense would that make?). My measurements don't match theirs exactly either. @basshead81 was spot-on regarding mixing data-sets. If anything needs to be corrected regarding the Monolith subs, you can PM me or @basshead81 and one of us can set things straight.
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Thanks for taking the time to post this Mike. I think everyone is beginning to realize that much of the "fart box" debacle may have had some agenda behind it
I don't blame you one bit for being unhappy about the "fart box" debacle. If someone calls my kid a name I'm going to be upset. I didn't make that comment nor did I post it (I believe it may have been @chucky7 who posted it, he did not make the comment originally). There is no need to rehash because it is all documented in its entirety (and I stand by my report and analysis). Some have taken parts of the events and used out of context. I have always debunked these reports whenever I am aware. There is no need to try and discredit or minimize me to debunk trolling. The truth is all that is needed. There were many attendants of the GTG including @Jsnow17 . There was no foul play or "agenda".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
There are clear reasons why that is so. We have to be careful not to misunderstand what cea-2010 represents and how limited it is in scope. Spending a few minutes copy/pasting the work of others into a chart is easy---especially if you don't worry about properly representing the data. To understand how limited that data is and how much more information you need to accurately correlate how a subwoofer will "sound" to someone in any given environment...that's a little different. I have spent 20+ years now on this and it still fascinates me. I hope to spend 20 more years on it. But even if I can I know I'll never have all the answers. I've tried to share more thoughts on it all in the past and it seems the way I present it...just draws a lot of trolling into the thread so I try to avoid it now. I cannot compete with someone with a u-mik and a whole weekend of measurement experience

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I agree regarding CEA/CTA's limitations.

I want to make something clear. I am not @chucky7 and he is not me. We are individuals who share a love for bass. He has been of help to me and I consider him a friend. Just because we are friends doesn't mean I have anything to do with what he posts or vice versa. In fact, we disagree here on AVS a lot. I don't think it is a secret that he is a JTR fan/cheerleader. His charts have been used primarily to compare JTR vs sub X in the past. However, I do believe he is developing a more balanced viewpoint. I have always seen him adjust his charts accordingly when someone has corrected him. edit: maybe not.

So, I am not sure who this someone trolling with a "u-mik and a whole weekend of measurement experience " is? It isn't me, because I have much more than a UMIK and a w/e of experience. Using the UMIK and EMM-6 microphones with REW for measurements were great experiences for me. In fact, many of my measurements with the EMM-6 validated PSA's posted numbers (fluke?).

I have spent about the last 6 months measuring and remeasuring many various subwoofers [both indoors and out] as I learned the Audiomatica Clio 12 suite. I have spent time alongside some real Acoustic Engineers (by trade and education). I'm still learning and gaining experience as I go. I will still be launching AVAnalysis.com and I will fully respect any vendors requests to be excluded.

There is no reason we can't all treat each other with respect here on AVS. I have no issue with PSA and I will be glad to feature PSA someday [once I can get A/V Analysis going full swing].
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post #42283 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Thanks for your response. Tom also mentioned clipping, but how is this happening? I have the sub channel levels in the Yamaha 3060 to -10.5 (the lowest they can go), the MV volume is at -15 and the sub’s gains are at 9:00. How is this clipping occurring do you think?

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Hi,

I thought that Yamaha AVR trim levels only went down to a minimum of -10? There has been a good bit of discussion lately on a couple of threads about whether subwoofers can achieve max output levels with low gain settings. I agree with climber07 that you probably want to recalibrate in order to get to a trim level of no lower than -9.5.

But afterwards, I would raise my gain level to at least 10:00 or 11:00, even if I ended up reducing the master volume slightly to compensate. You can always bump your center channel by a decibel or two if you need to. But, I think that you may need more sub gain.

My guess is that your sub's gain level wasn't high enough to produce the SPL it needed to, with some strong LFE peaks at a particular frequency, and that it clipped a bit when it tried.

Regards,
Mike
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post #42284 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:03 PM
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some of the prominent sub testers or gtg guys should record a clip of all the different subs playing different tones so the audience can get a feel of how different every sub can sound playing the same thing

measurements dont display sound.

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post #42285 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Thanks for your response. Tom also mentioned clipping, but how is this happening? I have the sub channel levels in the Yamaha 3060 to -10.5 (the lowest they can go), the MV volume is at -15 and the sub’s gains are at 9:00. How is this clipping occurring do you think?


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It could be something in the source material itself. In instances like these, subs sound fine for weeks or months but with one new movie disc and one specific scene there's an unexpected noise...the variable is the scene. Not saying this is definitive...but it's the variable in the room so to speak..

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post #42286 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:08 PM
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Lol. My all time favorite show! By the way what do you that 0.5 day in the year?



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post #42287 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I don't blame you one bit for being unhappy about the "fart box" debacle.... I didn't make that comment nor did I post it (I believe it may have been @chucky7 who posted it, he did not make the comment originally).
No. I have never used the term "fart box" in my posts. I believe a past PSA user came up with that term.

On a related or unrelated matter, I did not come up with the term "chuffmaster" either. The term was coined by one of the attendants of the GTG.

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post #42288 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Thanks for your response. Tom also mentioned clipping, but how is this happening? I have the sub channel levels in the Yamaha 3060 to -10.5 (the lowest they can go), the MV volume is at -15 and the sub’s gains are at 9:00. How is this clipping occurring do you think?
Can you provide the specific times in the movie where you hear this?
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post #42289 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
some of the prominent sub testers or gtg guys should record a clip of all the different subs playing different tones so the audience can get a feel of how different every sub can sound playing the same thing

measurements dont display sound.
Not sure if our customer's really prioritize what a test "tone" will sound like over movies and music tbh. I cannot speak for other fan bases of course, just going by my experience interacting with our guys in chat/email/phone. I never use test tones during our listening sessions so we may or may not sound great in that context. On the other hand when actual source material is used we often fair a little better

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...ng-better.html

So both subs arrived on Thursday but I was so tired from work I was not able to review them until this passed weekend. Man oh man let me tell you first let me start off by saying both subs were everything I was hoping for and more. So over the weekend I watched about 4 or 5 movies that were BASS heavy. I first watched behind enemy lines along with Thor and Batman vs Superman, also a little kids movie for my daughter in which I can not remember the name to. I first audition the Rythmik FV15HP and this subs is amazing. In my house this sub was able to go as low as 10Hz, 15hz with no problem at all. Between the two this one digged deeper in the lower FR. The overall sound quality was amazing and I almost ended up buying this one . I really have nothing bad to say about the FV15HP job well done Rythmik. Now on to the PSA V1801, man oh man this sub is like night and day compared to the 15V's I had previously, don't get me wrong I like the 15's but they were not strong enough in the lower FR in my theater. They just did not get me excited when it was called upon to hit me in the gut so to speak. Well with the V1801 I had no such problem at all. It really made my seats become a massage chair when it was called upon for bass and I mean BASS. My wife was not to excited at first about me upgrading and trying to get duals because to her the 15V's were more than enough. Not until she felt the beast of this thing. She could not believe how much air was flowing through the ports and how much clean bass was coming out of them. Now I mention earlier that the Rythmik produce a deeper bass response, however the PSA was much stronger overall as far as raw output. So even though the Rythmik dig deeper the PSA had a stronger feeling when producing the lows because of the stronger amp. So for that reason alone we decided to go with the PSA also because it was smaller as well (WAF). Overall job well done for both companies but I am going with the V1801 and will eventually get another one as well.

If all anyone read was one of the charts posted at avs along with the same three guys yelling "fart box"...I doubt they would have thought the v1801 would stand a chance against one of the very best subs available at the same price?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

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post #42290 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:28 PM
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there nothing to update. nothing new. I'm rowing the boat as fast I can, 364.5 days a year in the office...


The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli.


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What is that...a Titleist?
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TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
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post #42291 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
What is that...a Titleist?


Hahahaha! Man I love that show. Greatest of all times!


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #42292 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:38 PM
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I have to admit, I got off on the wrong foot with PSA due to my own inexperience and ignorance but, once I figured it out, their **** pounds pretty hard! The CS is top notch. Im pleased.


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Meh, that's water under the bridge. I always felt like you were caught in the middle to some degree. You weren't happy and I can only imagine how many PMs you got(from the same 3 guys) trying to convince you how "defective" the design is, what a con man I am, how you got ripped off, you need to get a full refund and get jtr...blah blah. You just thought they were trying to help when their priority was/is casting a negative cloud over power sound by any means available. Reminds me of the diner scene in Real Genius..

Anyway, let me know when you're ready for v3601 number two and we're make it happen!

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #42293 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:43 PM
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Hahahaha! Man I love that show. Greatest of all times!


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It really is. I JUST watched Curb your Enthusiasm last year(binged the whole thing in about a month) and it is right up there too with the same kind of humor if anyone hasn't seen that one yet.

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Power Sound Audio
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post #42294 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Not sure if our customer's really prioritize what a test "tone" will sound like over movies and music tbh. I cannot speak for other fan bases of course, just going by my experience interacting with our guys in chat/email/phone. I never use test tones during our listening sessions so we may or may not sound great in that context.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I just mention this because everyone seems to buy off of numbers on a chart vs how the stuff actually sounds...we have so many members on this forum, it would be easy to record a few clips of different subs with same material.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #42295 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:53 PM
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Is there any evidence that "everyone" or even a majority pick their subs based on chart numbers?
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post #42296 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 06:54 PM
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well what else does this forum talk about? being science and all?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
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post #42297 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 07:34 PM
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It could be something in the source material itself. In instances like these, subs sound fine for weeks or months but with one new movie disc and one specific scene there's an unexpected noise...the variable is the scene. Not saying this is definitive...but it's the variable in the room so to speak..



Tom V.

Power Sound Audio


Thanks again Tom (and to all who responded), this is a great thread, probably my favorite! It’s like a family, it really is, and I’m so grateful to have found you guys and PSA.
After working with this for the last several hours (I tried every suggestion offered), i disconnected the Antimode i had installed months ago and voila! Everything came alive, and with none of the distortion I had been experiencing. What a tremendous difference! I’ve never experienced bass like that in my house EVER! The Antimode was strangling my V3601’s somehow. The plan now is to install a MiniDSP 2x4HD, manually set levels, timing, distance, phase, etc, then buy the Dirac plug in and run that. I can’t wait to re run some bass heavy favorites (I’d be doing it now, but it’s getting too late). Thanks again!


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post #42298 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 08:31 PM
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Hey guys, been about 3 years since I logged in here, but just wanted to say that my XV15se that I bought 3-4 years ago is still working great. While one can always have more bass, I never find myself wanting while watching movies or gaming. If I ever upgrade someday, I'll go right back to these guys.
You bring back fond memories with the mention of the XV15SEs, it's been a while but I believe my space never sounded much better than when I had four of them, it truly was a satisfying experience, thanks for the comment.............

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #42299 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 08:33 PM
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@jamie I'm still trying to verify the TG's output, I haven't forgotten my friend, you have any updates to report?

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #42300 of 52604 Old 05-12-2018, 09:38 PM
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Is there any evidence that "everyone" or even a majority pick their subs based on chart numbers?
I would say noobs like myself do. We don't know much (at first), so we look at charts and think they say it all.

I copied my post from January when I was an owner of the SVS PB12-NSD and was trying to figure out which way to go. Although not necessarily charts, it's numbers that mean something to us clueless "noobs."

It was after posting this and the majority of the feedback choosing PSA that landed me here....but instead I went with the v1801 in the end 🙂

My January post:
________
SVS PB12 Plus VS PSA V1500

Here's the comparison i made.

Driver-
SVS: 12"
PSA: 15"

Amplifier-
SVS: 800 watts RMS
(2300 watts peak)
PSA: 725 watts RMS
(1900 watts peak)

Freq. Response-
SVS:
18-250 Hz ? 3 dB (20 Hz mode)
16-250 Hz ? 3 dB (16 Hz mode)
23-250 Hz ? 3 dB (sealed mode)

PSA:
16-200 Hz ? 3 dB

Port Size & #
SVS: Triple 3"
PSA: One 4"

Dimension-
SVS: (H) 22" (W) 19.8" (D) 26.6"
PSA: (H) 25" (W) 17" (D) 24"

Weight-
SVS: 127 lbs
PSA: 86 lbs

Price-
SVS: $999-$1,199
PSA: $1,099
________

So yes I would say charts are a defining factor for the average audio consumer, but NOT for the average AVS experienced member. Just my opinion as a beginner into all this.
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