Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1411 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #42301 of 54601 Old 05-12-2018, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Is there any evidence that "everyone" or even a majority pick their subs based on chart numbers?
I would say noobs like myself do. We don't know much (at first), so we look at charts and think they say it all.

I copied my post from January when I was an owner of the SVS PB12-NSD and was trying to figure out which way to go. Although not necessarily charts, it's numbers that mean something to us clueless "noobs."

It was after posting this and the majority of the feedback choosing PSA that landed me here....but instead I went with the v1801 in the end 🙂

My January post:
________
SVS PB12 Plus VS PSA V1500

Here's the comparison i made.

Driver-
SVS: 12"
PSA: 15"

Amplifier-
SVS: 800 watts RMS
(2300 watts peak)
PSA: 725 watts RMS
(1900 watts peak)

Freq. Response-
SVS:
18-250 Hz ? 3 dB (20 Hz mode)
16-250 Hz ? 3 dB (16 Hz mode)
23-250 Hz ? 3 dB (sealed mode)

PSA:
16-200 Hz ? 3 dB

Port Size & #
SVS: Triple 3"
PSA: One 4"

Dimension-
SVS: (H) 22" (W) 19.8" (D) 26.6"
PSA: (H) 25" (W) 17" (D) 24"

Weight-
SVS: 127 lbs
PSA: 86 lbs

Price-
SVS: $999-$1,199
PSA: $1,099
________

So yes I would say charts are a defining factor for the average audio consumer, but NOT for the average AVS experienced member. Just my opinion as a beginner into all this.
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post #42302 of 54601 Old 05-12-2018, 09:44 PM
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most go by charts so not alone

psa seems to have the numbers in the best output range...thats good.

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post #42303 of 54601 Old 05-12-2018, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@jamie I'm still trying to verify the TG's output, I haven't forgotten my friend, you have any updates to report?

Cheers Jeffrey
Hi Jeffrey
No not yet mate, I'm still waiting for Csl to get stock of the calibrated umik-1s again.And my dad is currently using my laptop

Been really just enjoying the system the last few days, it's truly never sounded better. Having matching speakers all round was honestly one of the best upgrades I've ever done!! I watched MiB with my daughter yesterday and a bunch of concert blu-rays, was awesome!
I do really want to know what's going on with REWs TG, but at the end of the day - using the TG and my umik1 - my subs are now about 2-3dB hot RELATIVE to the speakers, whether they get there via adding 7dB to the subs or adding 3dB to the subs+taking 4dB off the speaker trims probably makes no real difference - other than bothering my OCD.lol

When I do a REW sweep at my average normal MV of -10dB with DynEQ on I am probably 6-8dB hot in 20-100hz range compared to the 100-300hz range and about 10-12dB hot compared to the 300hz to 20khz range (hope that makes sense)
This sounds good to me in my room
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post #42304 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 08:24 AM
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Thanks again Tom (and to all who responded), this is a great thread, probably my favorite! It’s like a family, it really is, and I’m so grateful to have found you guys and PSA.
After working with this for the last several hours (I tried every suggestion offered), i disconnected the Antimode i had installed months ago and voila! Everything came alive, and with none of the distortion I had been experiencing. What a tremendous difference! I’ve never experienced bass like that in my house EVER! The Antimode was strangling my V3601’s somehow. The plan now is to install a MiniDSP 2x4HD, manually set levels, timing, distance, phase, etc, then buy the Dirac plug in and run that. I can’t wait to re run some bass heavy favorites (I’d be doing it now, but it’s getting too late). Thanks again!


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No idea about Antimode.....but the minidsp 2x4hd rocks! I was looking at antimode previously....but people said it cause more issues than anything and get minidsp instead. So far I love it and there seems to be more support for minidsp devices.

Theater room: Sony 45es | 120" screen | Panasonic BDT500 | Rotel RMB-1077 | Outlaw Audio 976 | Klipsch RP-280F/RP-450C/RP-160M | Funk Audio subs | MiniDSP 2x4HD | Crowson Tech MAs | Surgex XR 315 | GIK room treatment

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post #42305 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
No idea about Antimode.....but the minidsp 2x4hd rocks! I was looking at antimode previously....but people said it cause more issues than anything and get minidsp instead. So far I love it and there seems to be more support for minidsp devices.


Thanks for your confirmation regarding the MiniDSP, i don’t know what caused the Antimode malfunction, but I’m not devoting any further time and energy attempting to solve it. I have long put off using minidsp and REW mostly due mostly to laziness, but I’ve ordered the 2x4HD and mic, a boom mic stand and downloaded some tutorials, so it already seems far less intimidating. I’m actually excited to begin this process.


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post #42306 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 08:33 AM
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Reading through the last day's worth of posts I know exactly where Tom's coming from. About five years ago when I was shopping for my first real subwoofer there was a Shady character who was active and he was constantly bashing PSA products. He didn't own one but that didn't stop him from trying to keep others from buying them. He went from thread to thread with his anti PSA rhetoric.

To be honest he had me concerned about PSA. In fact I almost went a different direction partly because of him. And as I was actively posting asking questions about subwoofers (like most guys do as they try and decide between subs) there were two people who convinced me that I shouldn't believe the negative attacks and try PSA.

The first was Basshead through his knowledgeable posts here in this thread. Basshead had the knowledge to go toe to toe with that shady character, pointing out where he was wrong and correcting the misinformation he was spreading. The other was a well respected owner of JTR speakers and subs. But he also owned PSA subwoofers and he quietly sent me a PM one day and told me I should go ahead and try the PSA subwoofer and that I would be happy with it. He was right and once I got a PSA product in my hand I was thrilled. And if you look at my signature you can see that I've come back time and time again for more.

But for some reason PSA seems to attract people who just want to bash their products even though the people bashing them don't own them. For instance, last I looked Seaton Subs have never been tested at Data-Bass which is fine by me and apparently everyone else. But if PSA decides to stop having their subs tested on Data-Bass there's an uproar and accusations about PSA trying to cover something up. And that's just one example. I could go on and on but we all know what I'm talking about. We've all seen the posts where PSA gets thrown under the bus by certain people who don't own them yet these people act like they know all about them.

Anyway, it's strange to me. You don't see such negative posts leveled against Hsu, Ryhtmik etc. But you constantly see them against PSA. This last year has been the worst and as owners of PSA subwoofers I feel like many of us have had to stand toe to toe and point out why the negative posts aren't true (just like basshead had to do five years ago against Shady). A great example is at the top of the last page where basshead points out that you can't compare measurements done at different times on different equipment by different people... it's not accurate to do so. As he said, it's NOT apple to apples.

Anyway, as can be seen in this thread, the people who actually own PSA subwoofers LOVE them. And in the end that's all that matters because we are the ones in the trenches with them... using them everyday, playing demanding material and walking away smiling. We are the ones that can truly tell you just how good a PSA subwoofer really is. Sorry for the rant.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

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post #42307 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 08:49 AM
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Agree with Bass and Hop here. About 2 years ago is when I finally pulled the trigger on the V1801, but damn. Leading up to that was this constant back and forth between "I'm ready. This is it!" Then I'd read some random post clapping all over PSA. Not knowing anything about real subs, it scared me off for a while. It took a while but I soon saw the guys running their mouths had an agenda for some weird reason. Never could figure that out.

In the end, i got the V1801, then soon thereafter the V3601, and I couldn't be happier.

As one wise man once said, "haters gonna hate"...or was it "ainter's gonna aint"?

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post #42308 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 08:55 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Many well respected non PSA owners have said it very recently that they find conversations on the PSA thread all focused on helping each other get the best out of our gear. There is no negativity against other brands and recommendations are based upon experiences and knowledge. As HOP said, we as owners are the best ambassadors of the brand and I know Tom relies on us to educate others who are looking at PSA and wondering what is the truth. The whole brand bashing seems to come in waves but gets squashed each time.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #42309 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 09:27 AM
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Back when I was looking to upgrade to my first "real" subwoofer, I was looking at the HSU vtf3 mk5 and the PSA v1500.
Like many people have done before, I emailed Tom asking how the v1500 would compare to the HSU. I think I asked him something like "will the v1500 blow away the HSU" lol
He politely emailed me back saying that actually they would be very similar in performance and either would be a great choice.
It was this that made me go with my first PSA sub. An owner of a company actually praising a competitors product and not pushing theirs.
Things like this and also the feeling of family from all you guys is what makes this guy a loyal PSA customer and fan for life
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post #42310 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 09:29 AM
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Any one with dual v1801s in a 4500ish cu ft basement ? If so can two of these “pressurize” a sealed basement media room of this size? Would these still require nearfield placement. I fear buying larger subs and placing them behind me like my old setup. If thats the case all just throw 2 12s behind the couches
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post #42311 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Thanks for your confirmation regarding the MiniDSP, i don’t know what caused the Antimode malfunction, but I’m not devoting any further time and energy attempting to solve it. I have long put off using minidsp and REW mostly due mostly to laziness, but I’ve ordered the 2x4HD and mic, a boom mic stand and downloaded some tutorials, so it already seems far less intimidating. I’m actually excited to begin this process.


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Its awesome. You will love it! Just make sure you purchase and download the HD1 plugin for the 2x4hd device.

Theater room: Sony 45es | 120" screen | Panasonic BDT500 | Rotel RMB-1077 | Outlaw Audio 976 | Klipsch RP-280F/RP-450C/RP-160M | Funk Audio subs | MiniDSP 2x4HD | Crowson Tech MAs | Surgex XR 315 | GIK room treatment

TV Room: Panny 60 inch | Rotel RMB-1075 | Rotel RSP-1068 | Axiom Audio M60/VP150/QS8 |
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post #42312 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Is there any evidence that "everyone" or even a majority pick their subs based on chart numbers?

My eyes glaze over when I see all of those performance numbers. I am a numbers guy which perhaps is why I am skeptical of their meaning. There are too many variables to place too much weight on a particular series of numbers.


Instead I prefer buying based on the experience and reputation of the designer/builder. I trust @Tom Vodhanel and Jim to look at the numbers for me and make the right choices balancing cost and performance. Considering the overall product (consumer service, packaging and the subs/speakers themselves) ,these guys are second to none . Based on my own experience I would not hesitate recommending their products to any of my friends or family.

Spoiler!
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post #42313 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 10:55 AM
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Lol. My all time favorite show! By the way what do you that 0.5 day in the year?



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Not my top series (close though) but my favorite episode of it. I laugh just thinking about it.

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My contract says I can take a day off with every Browns win...

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You are one tough negotiator! I am pleased every time I see you pop in this thread because I almost always learn something. Now I know when I can expect you to appear in the future
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post #42314 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 11:02 AM
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Imureh's post above says it perfectly IMO. Anyone who doesn't have a personal vendetta against PSA knows just how good these products are. I dont own them, but have loads of respect for the opinions of those who do. This thread does (not) come off as a group of fan boys but rather a brotherhood of enthusiasts who really help each other.

As the S3601 was compared to the S-1 a couple pages back, IMO there's no doubt it would hold it's own and with duel drivers should excel in the upper bass frequency's. John Wick2 gunshots on a pair of S3601 i believe would be of HUGE demo material.

I may have not gone back enough pages so i didn't see the PSA bashing been discussed unless chucky's chart was the source? At the end of the day IMO PSA doesn't need to defend their products (although necessary at times) because their just that good.

Myself have had poor customer service with another brand when i needed it most,, goes to show that a products performance is only part of a purchase. PSA is know by (all) competitors for their outstanding customer service. If product performance/price/customer service was in an online survey i think we all know who would be on top.

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post #42315 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by tjc50 View Post
Any one with dual v1801s in a 4500ish cu ft basement ? If so can two of these “pressurize” a sealed basement media room of this size? Would these still require nearfield placement. I fear buying larger subs and placing them behind me like my old setup. If thats the case all just throw 2 12s behind the couches

Hi,

According to your thread, your room is approximately 4860^3 (24' by 27' by 7.5'). The "pressurization" that you are talking about would occur at just a little over 15Hz. Pressure vessel gain is calculated by taking the longest dimension in the room (diagonal corners, floor-to-ceiling) times two. That wavelength, which is approximately 74' long in your room, corresponds to a frequency of a fraction over 15Hz.

That means that the really significant room gain in your room won't start until about 20Hz, for the axial room mode, and the pressurization that you are referring to, which creates pressure against our ear drums and chests, won't start until ~15Hz. Add to that the fact that you are on concrete, which will reduce the amount of low-frequency tactile response that you will feel. And, as you have the occasional opportunity to do it with two little ones, you like to listen at volumes approaching -5 MV.

Given all of that, I think that it will be very important for you to buy the most powerful ported sub that you can, and then add to it later. I would recommend buying a V3601 now, and adding another when you can. Nearfield subs are great, and I wouldn't rule out using one now, or in the future. They help with respect to both SPL and tactile response, as both of those diminish with distance.

But, placing a sub nearfield, whether it is a V1801, or one of the 12" subs you mentioned, may not help it to hit low-frequencies with sufficient SPL to make a significant difference, when there is so little room gain to help you. I know the feeling. I am in a 6000^3 room on concrete. Room gain will help me from about 20Hz down, but I have to start with enough low-frequency SPL for it to amplify the low-frequencies enough to make a serious difference. And, I don't even like to listen as loud as you do, so my total SPL requirements may be more modest than yours.

I would try to go as large as I could initially, and then add to it with another ported sub when I can. If not, I think that you are likely to be back, upgrading again, before much time has passed. There is nothing wrong with that. People upgrade all of the time. But, sometimes the future upgrade is pretty predictable, based on some known variables. And, I think that is the case here. Going big to start with will save you some money, time, and effort down the road.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 05-13-2018 at 11:26 AM.
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post #42316 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 11:17 AM
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There are clear reasons why that is so. We have to be careful not to misunderstand what cea-2010 represents and how limited it is in scope. Spending a few minutes copy/pasting the work of others into a chart is easy---especially if you don't worry about properly representing the data. To understand how limited that data is and how much more information you need to accurately correlate how a subwoofer will "sound" to someone in any given environment...that's a little different. I have spent 20+ years now on this and it still fascinates me. I hope to spend 20 more years on it. But even if I can I know I'll never have all the answers. I've tried to share more thoughts on it all in the past and it seems the way I present it...just draws a lot of trolling into the thread so I try to avoid it now. I cannot compete with someone with a u-mik and a whole weekend of measurement experience

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post #42317 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 11:47 AM
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@jamie I'm still trying to verify the TG's output, I haven't forgotten my friend, you have any updates to report?

Cheers Jeffrey
Jeffrey, I am pretty confident that the REW TG is accurate. If you want to check other sources it is best to download tones as many test discs have variances that it is hard to keep track of. AVRs/AVPs also have their own variances (which is why I prefer the REW TG). I have a bigger questions regarding what certain AVRs are doing.

Making things more confusing is RMS vs Peak, sinusoidal vs PN.

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/he...ml/siggen.html

The whole discussion may be better served to have in the REW thread.
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post #42318 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
Imureh's post above says it perfectly IMO. Anyone who doesn't have a personal vendetta against PSA knows just how good these products are. I dont own them, but have loads of respect for the opinions of those who do. This thread does (not) come off as a group of fan boys but rather a brotherhood of enthusiasts who really help each other.

As the S3601 was compared to the S-1 a couple pages back, IMO there's no doubt it would hold it's own and with duel drivers should excel in the upper bass frequency's. John Wick2 gunshots on a pair of S3601 i believe would be of HUGE demo material.

I may have not gone back enough pages so i didn't see the PSA bashing been discussed unless chucky's chart was the source? At the end of the day IMO PSA doesn't need to defend their products (although necessary at times) because their just that good.

Myself have had poor customer service with another brand when i needed it most,, goes to show that a products performance is only part of a purchase. PSA is know by (all) competitors for their outstanding customer service. If product performance/price/customer service was in an online survey i think we all know who would be on top.
I wonder what the machine gun fire at the beginning of Live Free or Die Hard sounds(or feels) like on dual S3601.
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post #42319 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 11:50 AM
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Its awesome. You will love it! Just make sure you purchase and download the HD1 plugin for the 2x4hd device.


Appreciate the tip. Would you mind if i consulted you if i run into issues when i venture deeper into the rabbit hole?


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post #42320 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjc50 View Post
Any one with dual v1801s in a 4500ish cu ft basement ? If so can two of these “pressurize” a sealed basement media room of this size? Would these still require nearfield placement. I fear buying larger subs and placing them behind me like my old setup. If thats the case all just throw 2 12s behind the couches

Hi,

According to your thread, your room is approximately 4860^3 (24' by 27' by 7.5'). The "pressurization" that you are talking about would occur at just a little over 15Hz. Pressure vessel gain is calculated by taking the longest dimension in the room (diagonal corners, floor-to-ceiling) times two. That wavelength, which is approximately 74' long in your room, corresponds to a frequency of a fraction over 15Hz.

That means that the really significant room gain in your room won't start until about 20Hz, for the axial room mode, and the pressurization that you are referring to, which creates pressure against our ear drums and chests, won't start until ~15Hz. Add to that the fact that you are on concrete, which will reduce the amount of low-frequency tactile response that you will feel. And, as you have the occasional opportunity to do it with two little ones, you like to listen at volumes approaching -5 MV.

Given all of that, I think that it will be very important for you to buy the most powerful ported sub that you can, and then add to it later. I would recommend buying a V3601 now, and adding another when you can. Nearfield subs are great, and I wouldn't rule out using one now, or in the future. They help with respect to both SPL and tactile response, as both of those diminish with distance.

But, placing a sub nearfield, whether it is a V1801, or one of the 12" subs you mentioned, may not help it to hit low-frequencies with sufficient SPL to make a significant difference, when there is so little room gain to help you. I know the feeling. I am in a 6000^3 room on concrete. Room gain will help me from about 20Hz down, but I have to start with enough low-frequency SPL for it to amplify the low-frequencies enough to make a serious difference. And, I don't even like to listen as loud as you do, so my total SPL requirements may be more modest than yours.

I would try to go as large as I could initially, and then add to it with another ported sub when I can. If not, I think that you are likely to be back, upgrading again, before much time has passed. There is nothing wrong with that. People upgrade all of the time. But, sometimes the future upgrade is pretty predictable, based on some known variables. And, I think that is the case here. Going big to start with will save you some money, time, and effort down the road.

Regards,
Mike
The room size got chopped down a bit we added a hallway to get the wall off of my sons return air duct... so we cut a smidge off nothing to sway the decision tho. I have never been so stressed out about a luxory purchase like this. Thankfully i have had alot of time to think and the basement project with changes kicked my purchase date back. If i go even larger than the v1801 i will prob go cap 1400s the v3601 just seem a bit tall. But who knows i could flip flop again for sure haha. The absolute last thing i want to do is package up subs and send them back.... i know that it couod happen once in room and calibrated or i may not like the sound signature etc but i doubt thay
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post #42321 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 01:12 PM
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Appreciate the tip. Would you mind if i consulted you if i run into issues when i venture deeper into the rabbit hole?


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No problem. You can PM me anytime.

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post #42322 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 01:31 PM
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Ok, question for you guys using REW...

Can you tell me what frequencies are being produced in this song???


I'm asking because my house hates this song.

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post #42323 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 01:40 PM
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Ok, question for you guys using REW...

Can you tell me what frequencies are being produced in this song???

https://youtu.be/eUuWxRaq_u0

I'm asking because my house hates this song.

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So do all ported subs. When the song drops out it gets down to around 10 cycles


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post #42324 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 01:43 PM
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So do all ported subs. When the song drops out it gets down to around 10 cycles


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Oh wow.

That explains a lot. It sounds incredible but I have to turn it down when the song reaches that part where it must be hitting near 10 cycles because I get a lot of excursion with little sound.

Thanks!!

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post #42325 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 02:16 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

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Oh wow.

That explains a lot. It sounds incredible but I have to turn it down when the song reaches that part where it must be hitting near 10 cycles because I get a lot of excursion with little sound.

Thanks!!

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That’s probably one of the hardest songs on a subwoofer that I’ve ever played. I came across that last summer and haven’t played it much since, but it’s definitely something that a sealed sub would play better


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post #42326 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 02:22 PM
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No problem. You can PM me anytime.


Thanks!


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post #42327 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 02:24 PM
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That’s probably one of the hardest songs on a subwoofer that I’ve ever played. I came across that last summer and haven’t played it much since, but it’s definitely something that a sealed sub would play better


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That's the truth. The shelves in the pantry, the cabinets in the kitchen, the pocket door, the potted plants...all shake like crazy during that song. The bass is incredible, but my house sounds horrible. The final straw was the picture frame hanging in my bedroom falling and shattering. WAF is pretty bad.

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post #42328 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 02:33 PM
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That’s probably one of the hardest songs on a subwoofer that I’ve ever played. I came across that last summer and haven’t played it much since, but it’s definitely something that a sealed sub would play better


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Would like to give this a try on the s3601's, but I'm thinking off of YouTube it would be compressed etc, no?
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post #42329 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 02:38 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

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Would like to give this a try on the s3601's, but I'm thinking off of YouTube it would be compressed etc, no?


Surely doesn’t sound like it LOL. It’s hits really hard. Feel free to pm me a video


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post #42330 of 54601 Old 05-13-2018, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
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Would like to give this a try on the s3601's, but I'm thinking off of YouTube it would be compressed etc, no?


Surely doesn’t sound like it LOL. It’s hits really hard. Feel free to pm me a video
Post it here! I don't think there are many ppl who have dual s3601's so it'd be cool to see!
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