Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1414 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #42391 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Just got around to watching LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring for the first time....ever. Yeah, I'm late to the party. I'm only an hour in as it's time for bed, but so far this movie has some incredible bass. A great sine wave at the beginning with a mass explosion that wiped out the planet. With my 15V I ran Audyssey which came back at -6db, a little higher than I would like, but I didn't want to calibrate again. I then went up 8db on the sub amp itself, then 2db on the AVR trim to bring it to a total of 10db hot. This is without DEQ.

For most of the movie so far the bass was just great. There were, however, a few scenes where the sub had to work really hard with a lot of port noise, granted only for 4-5 seconds, but pretty distracting. I even lowered the trim to -11db with this scene to see what happened, which would bring my total "hotness" of sub at 3db. At master volume -14db, you could still hear some vent noise, but on a much smaller scale. My guess is the scene I'm referring to is around the 15Vs port tune, because as I said, in the majority of the movie I've had no complaints...which brings me to my next thought...

I keep reading on these sealed subs...people just seem to love them! The S3000i looks really intriguing and I like the idea of eliminating port noise all together. If that s3000i can give me the bass I experience now with my 15V, this is a very tempting trial for me. Because of the way our basement is set up right now, I can only do a single sub at the moment, but I know with some saving of money and time I could purchase a second down the road. Would I really be giving up much of the lower bass with the S3000i?

I'm not nearly as technical as the people on this board so I did not want to have to deal with port noise or anything of that nature. I know if I did have to deal with it I'd probably still be bugging the crap out of the people of this board to find out how to mitigate the issue.


As for as the s3000i subwoofer I will say this: I think any concerns with performance gets rectified with the amount of power Tom has included with this model, 1700W RMS (4300W PEAK), and that EVERY company that produces subwoofers should have a sealed opposing dual driver design sub in their portfolio! I think it's brilliant and you could not ask for a more solid performer across both movies and music.
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post #42392 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 05:40 AM
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I'm not nearly as technical as the people on this board so I did not want to have to deal with port noise or anything of that nature. I know if I did have to deal with it I'd probably still be bugging the crap out of the people of this board to find out how to mitigate the issue.


As for as the s3000i subwoofer I will say this: I think any concerns with performance gets rectified with the amount of power Tom has included with this model, 1700W RMS (4300W PEAK), and that EVERY company that produces subwoofers should have a sealed opposing dual driver design sub in their portfolio! I think it's brilliant and you could not ask for a more solid performer across both movies and music.
The sealed bug is biting me hard.. but coming from a v3601 and v1801, I wouldn't settle for anything less.. I'd need a 7201 or dual s3601's which are out of my price range and frankly, would not prob serve me as well. I know that sealed on concrete doesn't produce as much TR as ported, but curiosity killed the cat. Someday I will try them side by side. If anyone lives near Cleveland Ohio and wants to spend an afternoon comparing Sealed vs ported, Ill provide beer and pizza.
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post #42393 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Just got around to watching LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring for the first time....ever. Yeah, I'm late to the party. I'm only an hour in as it's time for bed, but so far this movie has some incredible bass. A great sine wave at the beginning with a mass explosion that wiped out the planet. With my 15V I ran Audyssey which came back at -6db, a little higher than I would like, but I didn't want to calibrate again. I then went up 8db on the sub amp itself, then 2db on the AVR trim to bring it to a total of 10db hot. This is without DEQ.

For most of the movie so far the bass was just great. There were, however, a few scenes where the sub had to work really hard with a lot of port noise, granted only for 4-5 seconds, but pretty distracting. I even lowered the trim to -11db with this scene to see what happened, which would bring my total "hotness" of sub at 3db. At master volume -14db, you could still hear some vent noise, but on a much smaller scale. My guess is the scene I'm referring to is around the 15Vs port tune, because as I said, in the majority of the movie I've had no complaints...which brings me to my next thought...

I keep reading on these sealed subs...people just seem to love them! The S3000i looks really intriguing and I like the idea of eliminating port noise all together. If that s3000i can give me the bass I experience now with my 15V, this is a very tempting trial for me. Because of the way our basement is set up right now, I can only do a single sub at the moment, but I know with some saving of money and time I could purchase a second down the road. Would I really be giving up much of the lower bass with the S3000i?
^^^ I agree with both Bear and Tori. I think something seems a little askew if you're getting that much port air. I think perhaps you might be running your sub hotter than you realize. It's working hard to meet your demands. But over all the real problem is what Bear suggested. The bottom line is I think you've just discovered that you like more bass than what your sub can do on it's own in that size room. Which means you fit right in with the rest of us. But it also means you either need to get duals for more headroom, go larger for more headroom or go sealed.

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post #42394 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 05:44 AM
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You just don't have enough sub for your listening preferences and room size. Unless you turn the bass levels down much lower than where you like them, it sounds like you are going to hear vent noise on demanding scenes at or below port tune. How big is your room?

As far as whether or not the S3000i will satisfy you or not, it depends. Sealed subs are less tactile down low even if they are able to produce the same SPL, but, where the 15V starts rolling off, the S3000i should remain much flatter down low below a certain frequency if you have enough room gain. There's a good chance that, depending on your room size, dual S3000i(your long term goal), may provide you with enough clean output capability to be flat down to 10Hz or lower without compression. If this is the case, I think it would overall be a very good upgrade from the single 15V.

If it were me, I'd order up an S3000i, take advantage of the in home trial and see if it comes close to meeting your needs as far as output and low frequency movie performance. If it performs better for you than the 15V, your all set. If not, you might have to pay a little to ship it back. If it leaves you wanting, you know its time to save for a V3601.
My room is 2,050 cubic feet. So you would expect vent noise even at MV -14db and only running 3db hot? That seems pretty conservative to me. I would think vent noise would be eliminated with such a small amount of bass added. I could try my sub in the back where 25hz-45hz is more flat and see if that changes anything. Audyssey brings up that range about 9db. But I’m not sure what frequency that scene is calling for either so hard to say. But experimentation is free!

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post #42395 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 05:59 AM
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The sealed bug is biting me hard.. but coming from a v3601 and v1801, I wouldn't settle for anything less.. I'd need a 7201 or dual s3601's which are out of my price range and frankly, would not prob serve me as well. I know that sealed on concrete doesn't produce as much TR as ported, but curiosity killed the cat. Someday I will try them side by side. If anyone lives near Cleveland Ohio and wants to spend an afternoon comparing Sealed vs ported, Ill provide beer and pizza.

When I read about mixing a ported and sealed I thought it was interesting solution and one that could work if you had the technical know how to get them dialed in. Unfortunately that's not me so I went with the dual s3000i solution.


Just a hunch but I think you'd be happy with dual S3601s

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post #42396 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
My room is 2,050 cubic feet. So you would expect vent noise even at MV -14db and only running 3db hot? That seems pretty conservative to me. I would think vent noise would be eliminated with such a small amount of bass added. I could try my sub in the back where 25hz-45hz is more flat and see if that changes anything. Audyssey brings up that range about 9db. But I’m not sure what frequency that scene is calling for either so hard to say. But experimentation is free!
This probably explains it. 115 dB reference. -14 for -14MV = 101 dB. +3 dB hot = 104dB. +9 dB for boost from Audysey=113dB from a small ported sub with 20 Hz port tune = port noise.

If you think LoTR has a lot of bass, you are in for a real treat when you get enough subwoofer to meet your needs and watch some of the bigger bass blockbusters.
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post #42397 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 06:55 AM
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When I read about mixing a ported and sealed I thought it was interesting solution and one that could work if you had the technical know how to get them dialed in. Unfortunately that's not me so I went with the dual s3000i solution.


Just a hunch but I think you'd be happy with dual S3601s
I know... I have that hunch too!!!!!
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post #42398 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 07:14 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

I think we expect too much from most subwoofers without worrying about their limits and having them properly calibrated. While these are powerful subs, a single 15” driver will struggle to cleanly reach or approach reference levels across its operating bandwidth in most situations/rooms I can think of. You definitely need more headroom if you’re routinely running 110-115dB with a single 15V.

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post #42399 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 07:16 AM
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Any of you guys ever gone from a V3601 to sealed?? If so, what did you have to buy to replace it?? Dual S3601's? Just curious...

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post #42400 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 07:30 AM
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This is something that I ponder daily.. and not because i don't like the v3601, I just have never tried sealed and im curious about it. Id say that 2 s3601 would prob be relatively equal to 1 v3601 from 16-35 hz or so but someone like Tom may be able to comment further.
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post #42401 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 07:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Just got around to watching LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring for the first time....ever. Yeah, I'm late to the party. I'm only an hour in as it's time for bed, but so far this movie has some incredible bass. A great sine wave at the beginning with a mass explosion that wiped out the planet. With my 15V I ran Audyssey which came back at -6db, a little higher than I would like, but I didn't want to calibrate again. I then went up 8db on the sub amp itself, then 2db on the AVR trim to bring it to a total of 10db hot. This is without DEQ.

For most of the movie so far the bass was just great. There were, however, a few scenes where the sub had to work really hard with a lot of port noise, granted only for 4-5 seconds, but pretty distracting. I even lowered the trim to -11db with this scene to see what happened, which would bring my total "hotness" of sub at 3db. At master volume -14db, you could still hear some vent noise, but on a much smaller scale. My guess is the scene I'm referring to is around the 15Vs port tune, because as I said, in the majority of the movie I've had no complaints...which brings me to my next thought...

I keep reading on these sealed subs...people just seem to love them! The S3000i looks really intriguing and I like the idea of eliminating port noise all together. If that s3000i can give me the bass I experience now with my 15V, this is a very tempting trial for me. Because of the way our basement is set up right now, I can only do a single sub at the moment, but I know with some saving of money and time I could purchase a second down the road. Would I really be giving up much of the lower bass with the S3000i?
I went from 2 v1801 to 2 S3601s , and do not miss a thing about them even while being on slab concrete. Their sound and feel is just different and is something that I prefer , some wont. A 15v to an S3000i should be an improvement , probably wont be that drastic. I think a 15V to an S36 would provide more of a wow factor.
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post #42402 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 07:40 AM
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I went from 2 v1801 to 2 S3601s , and do not miss a thing about them even while being on slab concrete. Their sound and feel is just different and is something that I prefer , some wont. A 15v to an S3000i should be an improvement , probably wont be that drastic. I think a 15V to an S36 would provide more of a wow factor.
See im curious about that difference you speak of.... I need to hear it. I am music over movies and i also know the s3601 has a fuller sound than most sealed.
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post #42403 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 07:49 AM
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Once the veil is lifted and you hear a good sealed sub, you'll never go back to ported. To me sealed is just clearer, you hear every little note and there's no muddiness to the sound.
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post #42404 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
This is something that I ponder daily.. and not because i don't like the v3601, I just have never tried sealed and im curious about it. Id say that 2 s3601 would prob be relatively equal to 1 v3601 from 16-35 hz or so but someone like Tom may be able to comment further.


I don’t think dual S3601 can compete with dual v3601 across any frequency. In your case I would either resolve the V1801 with a V3601 or add another V1801.


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post #42405 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 08:40 AM
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clearly going to a 2nd v3601 woudl be the best, but i simply am stuck on hearing sealed. I am not necessarily wanting to BUY sealed yet until I hear it. I need to find someone local to Amherst, Ohio and have a small sub swap.
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post #42406 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 08:48 AM
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I don't think you can hear sealed sounding better than ported. And its funny people saying sealed is tighter than ported....if built right ported should be just as tight and musical. Both should sound the same but with ported giving more TR in lower frequencies. If you are hearing port wind/chuffing, etc then it means you need to add more of the ported subs so the subs won't have to work as hard. You would result in more TR with less strain on each sub and not have to worry about hearing port wind sounds.

You could go with powerful sealed subs, but its going to take at least twice as many sealed subs to get TR of a ported sub. Choose your poison!
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post #42407 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 08:53 AM
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clearly going to a 2nd v3601 woudl be the best, but i simply am stuck on hearing sealed. I am not necessarily wanting to BUY sealed yet until I hear it. I need to find someone local to Amherst, Ohio and have a small sub swap.


Still think if you can get a loaner or a trial on the S3601 you should do it. Just so you can hear for yourself. I love the sound of the sealed.
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post #42408 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 08:56 AM
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Ported definitely has it's place, like for people on a small budget or people with huge rooms, or if you watch mostly movies and don't listen to music. Some people say ported sounds just as good as sealed on music, I don't agree but that's just my opinion. On the other hand sealed can sound just as good as ported for movies but you have to spend more to get you there.
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post #42409 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 08:58 AM
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That's exactly it. I've never heard a good sealed sub, so the curiosity is always there.

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post #42410 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 09:32 AM
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That's exactly it. I've never heard a good sealed sub, so the curiosity is always there.

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I wouldn't move laterally or you'll be disappointed(V3601 to S3601). I think you'd be happy with dual S3601 though, they would only lose out to the V3601 at and around port tune(say 16 to 30hz).
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post #42411 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 09:49 AM
 
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clearly going to a 2nd v3601 woudl be the best, but i simply am stuck on hearing sealed. I am not necessarily wanting to BUY sealed yet until I hear it. I need to find someone local to Amherst, Ohio and have a small sub swap.
To me its like being on the side of the street and 2 vehicles pass by , 1 is a honda civic with a couple 15's crammed in , windows down blasting a certain song and trunk is rattling all to hell...Its loud , everyone can hear it and most of the bass is just going everywhere.The second is a minivan with soundproofing , windows rolled up and crammed with subs...Its definitely not as loud , you can hear it and feel the pressure , theres no rattling going on and you just know there is a party going on INSIDE that van.I mean maybe thats not the best way to explain it , but it makes sense in my twisted head. I got to experience 3 Cap2400s inside a semi-treated sealed room and while they were powerful as all hell and made for quite an experience for a movie demo scene (didnt get to hear any music) , I think I still preferred the sound of my S36's. No im not saying the S36's are better than a Cap2400 before the JTR Brigade comes storming in , im just saying I liked the sealed sound better!
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post #42412 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 10:09 AM
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I wouldn't move laterally or you'll be disappointed(V3601 to S3601). I think you'd be happy with dual S3601 though, they would only lose out to the V3601 at and around port tune(say 16 to 30hz).
Duals would definitely be the way to go. It's crazy to think I'd have to spend about double to go sealed though.

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post #42413 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 10:10 AM
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To me its like being on the side of the street and 2 vehicles pass by , 1 is a honda civic with a couple 15's crammed in , windows down blasting a certain song and trunk is rattling all to hell...Its loud , everyone can hear it and most of the bass is just going everywhere.The second is a minivan with soundproofing , windows rolled up and crammed with subs...Its definitely not as loud , you can hear it and feel the pressure , theres no rattling going on and you just know there is a party going on INSIDE that van.I mean maybe thats not the best way to explain it , but it makes sense in my twisted head. I got to experience 3 Cap2400s inside a semi-treated sealed room and while they were powerful as all hell and made for quite an experience for a movie demo scene (didnt get to hear any music) , I think I still preferred the sound of my S36's. No im not saying the S36's are better than a Cap2400 before the JTR Brigade comes storming in , im just saying I liked the sealed sound better!
This is entirely preference. While the general rules about sealed being better for music and ported better for HT, sealed better in small rooms vs ported etc are true, they do not account for how we perceive bass, TR etc...In my own experience having had dual submersive HPs in small 2100 cuft sealed room, I was getting solid extension down to 5hz, however when I switched to ported V1801s I realized that I was missing the violence of the bass that ported brought and that is something I enjoyed more. Now as we all know submersives are a benchmark for sealed subs so we know they are high quality with a masterfully tuned DSP and a 2400w amp but I still liked what I heard and experienced with the V1801s....so can't discount the personal bass taste aspect.

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post #42414 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 10:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
This is entirely preference. While the general rules about sealed being better for music and ported better for HT, sealed better in small rooms vs ported etc are true, they do not account for how we perceive bass, TR etc...In my own experience having had dual submersive HPs in small 2100 cuft sealed room, I was getting solid extension down to 5hz, however when I switched to ported V1801s I realized that I was missing the violence of the bass that ported brought and that is something I enjoyed more. Now as we all know submersives are a benchmark for sealed subs so we know they are high quality with a masterfully tuned DSP and a 2400w amp but I still liked what I heard and experienced with the V1801s....so can't discount the personal bass taste aspect.
Personal taste is probably responsible for most arguments and disagreements when it comes to most anything...I dont care how good you say it is , I absolutely hate Cilantro....You put that on my food and its getting thrown right back at you... Yet some people love Cilantro , we are all different....So I try to never say one is better than the other , I always just say what ive experienced and what I enjoy about each and who knows , I may end up back to ported one day and miss that violence that I know is there! Those Cap2400's were pretty damn violent!!!
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post #42415 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
No im not saying the S36's are better than a Cap2400 before the JTR Brigade comes storming in, im just saying I liked the sealed sound better!
I don't know what you are talking about...
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post #42416 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
It's not the "chuffing" stuff that people have been going on and on about...it's just the noise you hear from the air leaving the port.
It's the same thing. Chuffing is simply port/vent noise you hear of air moving in & out of the port.

Ignoring the chuff-trolling, the causes and the solutions of port noise have been discussed in the past.

Since you are using Audyssey I recommend not using DEQ. For you I would recommend running Audyssey with Room Size LARGE. Then, if you stilk experience the port noise at your desired listening levels simply turn down the Room Size until the noise is eliminated. You can then decide if you can live with what you have.

If not satisfied, you may just need to experiment with placement and seating position. Upgrading to an additional sub and/or larger model is always an option. A cheaper option would be to place a 2nd, smaller sub directly behind your seating (like the HSU VTF-1, RSL Speedwoofer or the Monolith 10).
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post #42417 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
clearly going to a 2nd v3601 woudl be the best, but i simply am stuck on hearing sealed. I am not necessarily wanting to BUY sealed yet until I hear it. I need to find someone local to Amherst, Ohio and have a small sub swap.
If you're ever in Nj you're more than welcome to come by and demo the s3601's
But I ain't lugging them to Ohio lol
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post #42418 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
Personal taste is probably responsible for most arguments and disagreements when it comes to most anything...I dont care how good you say it is , I absolutely hate Cilantro....You put that on my food and its getting thrown right back at you... Yet some people love Cilantro , we are all different....So I try to never say one is better than the other , I always just say what ive experienced and what I enjoy about each and who knows , I may end up back to ported one day and miss that violence that I know is there! Those Cap2400's were pretty damn violent!!!
In your case, it's choice-supportive bias...

Since you converted from ported to sealed not too long ago, you are more likely to say that you like sealed now. Otherwise, you would basically be admitting that you just wasted all that money converting...
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post #42419 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 11:23 AM
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See im curious about that difference you speak of.... I need to hear it. I am music over movies and i also know the s3601 has a fuller sound than most sealed.
The PSA sealed subs may have a fuller sound signature at higher volumes. But at low-to-moderate levels (low distortion) I don't find there to be any audible differences between quality subs.

David, aren't you in driving distance of PSA? Easy way to eval in home.

I honestly don't think you need to. I think you can simulate the sound of sealed by simply dialing down Room Size to SMALL. You may find that you prefer one setting for music and another for music.
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I don't think you can hear sealed sounding better than ported.

You could go with powerful sealed subs, but its going to take at least twice as many sealed subs to get TR of a ported sub. Choose your poison!
Yes!
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
I wouldn't move laterally or you'll be disappointed(V3601 to S3601). I think you'd be happy with dual S3601 though, they would only lose out to the V3601 at and around port tune(say 16 to 30hz).
I agree!
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Once the veil is lifted and you hear a good sealed sub, you'll never go back to ported. To me sealed is just clearer, you hear every little note and there's no muddiness to the sound.
It's not quite so cut & dry. Good sealed systems are easier to build than ported. You may not have experienced good/great ported subs.
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post #42420 of 56863 Old 05-15-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
It's the same thing. Chuffing is simply port/vent noise you hear of air moving in & out of the port.

Ignoring the chuff-trolling, the causes and the solutions of port noise have been discussed in the past.

Since you are using Audyssey I recommend not using DEQ. For you I would recommend running Audyssey with Room Size LARGE. Then, if you stilk experience the port noise at your desired listening levels simply turn down the Room Size until the noise is eliminated. You can then decide if you can live with what you have.

If not satisfied, you may just need to experiment with placement and seating position. Upgrading to an additional sub and/or larger model is always an option. A cheaper option would be to place a 2nd, smaller sub directly behind your seating (like the HSU VTF-1, RSL Speedwoofer or the Monolith 10).
I haven't used DEQ for quite some time. I turned that off which is what I actually prefer. I should experiment with turning down the room size and see what I can tolerate with the reduction in the lower frequencies as you've said. I also plan on trying the sub in the back which goes down to 20hz but then falls quick, but have a pretty flat response from 20-65hz. As some have said, the boost with Audyssey from 25z-45hz of 9db probably isn't helping things either.


What's interesting is that these instances are far more less than common. There were probably only two scenes I can think of in watching the first hour of Lord of The Rings that I found quite distracting, and to eliminate the noise all together I had to reduce my levels substantially. Outside of this, it was such a sweet experience. I think I replayed that sine wave sensation of the planet imploding 3-4x. Couldn't help myself!

Speakers: Fronts- JBL 230, Center- JBL 235C, Surrounds: Fluance XLBP
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Last edited by butie120; 05-15-2018 at 12:12 PM.
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