Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1415 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #42421 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
In your case, it's choice-supportive bias...

Since you converted from ported to sealed not too long ago, you are more likely to say that you like sealed now. Otherwise, you would basically be admitting that you just wasted all that money converting...
If anyone knows about choice-supportive bias it's you @chucky7 ! ZING! BURN!

When @Jsnow17 had owned nothing but ported subs, I remember he was taken aback by the sealed Seaton F18s ("bass in a vacuum" was his quote). So I can't see any bias.

I do believe S3000i is an upgrade over V1500s and S3601 over V1801. I don't think anyone will find S3601s upgrades over V3601. This is the point @Slickman made previously.
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post #42422 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
I also plan on trying the sub in the back which goes down to 20hz but then falls quick, but have a pretty flat response from 20-65hz.
Maximize your output above 20Hz. Trying to produce frequencies below your sub's port tune will just cause problems.

Most people can't hear below 20Hz anyways. Some can hear down to 15Hz. I can only hear down to 16Hz (and up to ~16kHz).
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post #42423 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 12:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I don't know what you are talking about...
Bwahahaahaha
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post #42424 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 12:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
In your case, it's choice-supportive bias...

Since you converted from ported to sealed not too long ago, you are more likely to say that you like sealed now. Otherwise, you would basically be admitting that you just wasted all that money converting...
Hahaha...No , I wouldve just taken advantage of PSA's lovely in-home trial program and sent them back on their way and made a little more room for some V3601 badboys.....
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post #42425 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 12:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
If anyone knows about choice-supportive bias it's you @chucky7 ! ZING! BURN!

When @Jsnow17 had owned nothing but ported subs, I remember he was taken aback by the sealed Seaton F18s ("bass in a vacuum" was his quote). So I can't see any bias.

I do believe S3000i is an upgrade over V1500s and S3601 over V1801. I don't think anyone will find S3601s upgrades over V3601. This is the point @Slickman made previously.
Yup , out of all the great subs we heard that day , the Seaton F18's caught my attention the most....Even though they didnt stand much of a chance in your giant living room , they gave me the most questions in my head! Yes the "Bass in a Vacuum"...
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post #42426 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
This is something that I ponder daily.. and not because i don't like the v3601, I just have never tried sealed and im curious about it. Id say that 2 s3601 would prob be relatively equal to 1 v3601 from 16-35 hz or so but someone like Tom may be able to comment further.


First, let me say I’m not opposed to sealed subs, at all. In fact, I run dual sealed 18’s in my room. Now, I am above reference capable to below 10Hz, which is well above my listening requirements. Having said that, I don’t think sealed will offer any reasonably noticeable advantage over ported subs that play down into the mid to low teens. In fact, even if you could match the SPL and frequency response of the ported subs by having enough headroom with sealed, I believe you would have noticeably less tactile effect in movies. Even assuming the sealed subs might have more SPL down Around 10 or 12 Hz. Why? Because 15-30Hz is orders of magnitude more noticeable than whatever minor effect you might get from reference or even above reference level output down around 10 Hz.

The 10 Hz tone in the EoT opening scene that so many people are hung up on being the end all be all of subwoofer performance? You can barely tell it’s playing in my room at reference level other than watching my driver hit around 4” of peak to peak excursion.


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post #42427 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 01:00 PM
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For the sealed sounding better than ported for music crowd, it’s just not true. What is true is that sealed can sound just as good on MOST music as ported subs. Ported will have a distinct advantage on electronics and dubstep type music with much higher, cleaner, lower distortion output. The only advantage sealed hold over ported is they are smaller and cheaper. That’s it. Bias can make people believe their preference sounds better whether it actually does or not....has been proven plenty of times at GtG’s where people could not distinguish between sealed, ported, or horn on music. Did they all sound a little different? Maybe. But the sealed sub diehards would pick the Cap2400 ported 18” as OBVIOUSLY the sealed sub as it was clearly so much more articulate and detailed on music. Myths.

Equivalently well designed sealed and ported subs...sealed are almost as good on music. Again, the only advantage is smaller and cheaper.


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post #42428 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
Hahaha...No , I wouldve just taken advantage of PSA's lovely in-home trial program and sent them back on their way and made a little more room for some V3601 badboys.....
My point is that you compared the more expensive S3601 with V1801 in your home... The S3601 would have advantage from 32Hz and up... If you used just music and Interstellar for comparison, S3601 will sound louder.

If you really prefer the sealed sound, then you would pick, say the similarly priced S1801 over the V1801...

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post #42429 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 01:11 PM
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I had a chat with Tom and he more or less talk me down :-) I think he knows my listening habits and I possibly could run into headroom Issue since I listen to a lot of Electronic dance music and I believe that is where the ported will give me the most advantage. I’m all about listening to the sound difference but Tom didn’t seem to think they sound that much different.. I think everybody’s years pick up on things differently and the placebo affect also might be partially to blame. Regardless, I would like to try them but I think if I bought them I would probably be underwhelmed.Many people have called a lateral move but if I got into a crazy sealed set up but of course that would be a whole different story


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post #42430 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 01:29 PM
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I did a test....while I do have psa v1500 sub it does not come with port plug so I didn't use that sub to test the difference between sealed and ported. But I do have dual svs pb13s. I ran both in ported and sealed mode for comparison...calibrated both same spl level and listen to music and played few movie demo scenes. With music....its pretty much the same to my ears....I'd say ported mode was slightly perceived louder but no change in sound.

But for the movie demo scenes such as the Incredible Hulk, I tested both my svs subs in sealed and ported modes with same spl calibration. While both sounded same, I got more vibration and thump in ported mode but in sealed mode I lost the TR but I noticed the room had few rattles in the sonic canon scene in the Incredible Hulk just cause its probably playing 10hz or something which the sealed can play but ported is already cut off. And I'm also on concrete slab.

So with my setup I have verified ported and sealed both sound the same in my room except ported mode gave me more TR. Heck I even tested this and even just ONE pb13 in ported mode had more TR than dual pb13s in sealed mode while both use same spl calibration.

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post #42431 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
I haven't used DEQ for quite some time. I turned that off which is what I actually prefer. I should experiment with turning down the room size and see what I can tolerate with the reduction in the lower frequencies as you've said. I also plan on trying the sub in the back which goes down to 20hz but then falls quick, but have a pretty flat response from 20-65hz. As some have said, the boost with Audyssey from 25z-45hz of 9db probably isn't helping things either.


What's interesting is that these instances are far more less than common. There were probably only two scenes I can think of in watching the first hour of Lord of The Rings that I found quite distracting, and to eliminate the noise all together I had to reduce my levels substantially. Outside of this, it was such a sweet experience. I think I replayed that sine wave sensation of the planet imploding 3-4x. Couldn't help myself!
Hi, I also have dvd version of the LOTR and did the beginning scene like you mentioned. I tried with just ONE of my pb13 ultras in ported mode and turned it up really loud....5db above reference. WHOA! It really shakes. While I couldn't hear any port noise, I can feel the air coming out of the ports and I stand next to the sub and put my hand about 1 foot away.

Then I turned my other pb13 on so now I have DUAL pb13s engaged...recalibrated it and played same main volume of 5db above reference....Got more TR obviously cause of 2 subs vs 1 sub. But the port wind blowing was less.

So maybe in your case you should get another 15V or two if you plan on using same subs so you don't have to worry about sub playing so hard and won't be able to hear port wind at all since the subs will play at much lower gain compared to one sub alone. Does that make sense?
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post #42432 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I did a test....while I do have psa v1500 sub it does not come with port plug so I didn't use that sub to test the difference between sealed and ported. But I do have dual svs pb13s. I ran both in ported and sealed mode for comparison...calibrated both same spl level and listen to music and played few movie demo scenes. With music....its pretty much the same to my ears....I'd say ported mode was slightly perceived louder but no change in sound.



But for the movie demo scenes such as the Incredible Hulk, I tested both my svs subs in sealed and ported modes with same spl calibration. While both sounded same, I got more vibration and thump in ported mode but in sealed mode I lost the TR but I noticed the room had few rattles in the sonic canon scene in the Incredible Hulk just cause its probably playing 10hz or something which the sealed can play but ported is already cut off. And I'm also on concrete slab.



So with my setup I have verified ported and sealed both sound the same in my room except ported mode gave me more TR. Heck I even tested this and even just ONE pb13 in ported mode had more TR than dual pb13s in sealed mode while both use same spl calibration.


Very awesome post!!


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post #42433 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Hi, I also have dvd version of the LOTR and did the beginning scene like you mentioned. I tried with just ONE of my pb13 ultras in ported mode and turned it up really loud....5db above reference. WHOA! It really shakes. While I couldn't hear any port noise, I can feel the air coming out of the ports and I stand next to the sub and put my hand about 1 foot away.



Then I turned my other pb13 on so now I have DUAL pb13s engaged...recalibrated it and played same main volume of 5db above reference....Got more TR obviously cause of 2 subs vs 1 sub. But the port wind blowing was less.



So maybe in your case you should get another 15V or two if you plan on using same subs so you don't have to worry about sub playing so hard and won't be able to hear port wind at all since the subs will play at much lower gain compared to one sub alone. Does that make sense?


Great science acoustic testing session today sir!!


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post #42434 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 01:44 PM
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What did I say earlier, never compare ported vs sealed laterally or you will be disappointed, for instance PB13 Ultra ported and sealed. If someone is for instance looking at the PB2000 I would say for sealed you need to look at the SB4000, I always recommend one product line higher for sealed(at least).

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post #42435 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
What did I say earlier, never compare ported vs sealed laterally or you will be disappointed, for instance PB13 Ultra ported and sealed. If someone is for instance looking at the PB2000 I would say for sealed you need to look at the SB4000, I always recommend one product line higher for sealed(at least).
Yes, its all basically science. It takes a sealed sub with bigger driver or at least alot more amp power to equal smaller ported sub.

Now I'm curious how sealed mode in V1500 would sound....while it doesn't have variable port tune settings and foam plugs like pb13 would there be any damage if covering the port on V1500 at all? Asking before I even attempt to try it to avoid damage. I'm just curious basically how sealed mode in pb13 in larger box and bigger amp compares to sealed v1500 in smaller box with smaller amp but has bigger driver. Unless there are measurements comparing the S1500 vs SB13 somewhere?

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post #42436 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
Great science acoustic testing session today sir!!


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All this sealed vs ported talk had me curious....wanted to see with my own subs and compare to what internet says. LOL

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post #42437 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
My point is that you compared the more expensive S3601 with V1801 in your home... The S3601 would have advantage from 32Hz and up... If you used just music and Interstellar for comparison, S3601 will sound louder.

If you really prefer the sealed sound, then you would pick, say the similarly priced S1801 over the V1801...


I agree with this. The difference in price between V1801 and S3601 is $600 per sub. So not really a fair comparison. So to chucky’s point a more fair comparison would be V1801 vs S1801 or V3601 vs. S3601. I would highly doubt you would pick the S in each case there versus the ported.


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post #42438 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Yes, its all basically science. It takes a sealed sub with bigger driver or at least alot more amp power to equal smaller ported sub.

Now I'm curious how sealed mode in V1500 would sound....while it doesn't have variable port tune settings and foam plugs like pb13 would there be any damage if covering the port on V1500 at all? Asking before I even attempt to try it to avoid damage. I'm just curious basically how sealed mode in pb13 in larger box and bigger amp compares to sealed v1500 in smaller box with smaller amp but has bigger driver. Unless there are measurements comparing the S1500 vs SB13 somewhere?
Simply turning down Room Size should simulate sealed.
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post #42439 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Simply turning down Room Size should simulate sealed.
I had NO IDEA what the room size knob did so I left it alone and kept it on minimum setting. What should I expect differently by turning that knob clockwise?

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post #42440 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I had NO IDEA what the room size knob did so I left it alone and kept it on minimum setting. What should I expect differently by turning that knob clockwise?


A lot more bass below 50 hz


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post #42441 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:02 PM
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Simply turning down Room Size should simulate sealed.
Oh man, exactly right...I think. I listened to the artillery barrage from Hacksaw Ridge with the dial at 2 o'clock vs 8. Dramatic difference!

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post #42442 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
This probably explains it. 115 dB reference. -14 for -14MV = 101 dB. +3 dB hot = 104dB. +9 dB for boost from Audysey=113dB from a small ported sub with 20 Hz port tune = port noise.
Yep. Sounds like he has a null that Audyssey is trying to overcome.


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I could try my sub in the back where 25hz-45hz is more flat and see if that changes anything. Audyssey brings up that range about 9db.

Try that location. It sounds like the sub won't have to work as hard in that range and can give you more output.
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post #42443 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:05 PM
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I had NO IDEA what the room size knob did so I left it alone and kept it on minimum setting. What should I expect differently by turning that knob clockwise?
From Tom V:

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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That's a common question..

The room size control allows you to "shape" the frequency response of the subwoofer to optimize it's interaction with your room environment. The goal is so you can enjoy the exact type of bass quality you prefer.

The more you turn it to LARGE, the more powerful movies may sound to you. The more you turn it to SMALL, the tighter music may sound. There's no correct setting as it depends entirely on your room and your own listening preferences.

Don't expect grossly audible changes when adjusting the control. It's better to think of it as a "fine tuning" instrument.


Also, while on the subject.

GAIN: Start with it at about the midpoint. Let the AVR handle the calibration from there and adjust if needed during that process.

CROSSOVER: Turn it all the way up(clock wise). This bypasses the filter. The AVR is already applying a crossover to the signal going to the subwoofer and there's no need to filter the signal again(barring something very unusual).

TIME DELAY: Leave at 00. This is a control used to delay the output of the subwoofer in milliseconds to "time align" the bass with the output of the main speakers. The AVR's "distance setting" does the same thing. So you can let the AVR set that automatically. If you decide you want to experiment with the subwoofer's time alignment later just change the distance setting in the AVR. That can all be done via remote and it would be more convenient than changing the knobs on the sub.


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post #42444 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
My point is that you compared the more expensive S3601 with V1801 in your home... The S3601 would have advantage from 32Hz and up... If you used just music and Interstellar for comparison, S3601 will sound louder.

If you really prefer the sealed sound, then you would pick, say the similarly priced S1801 over the V1801...
Well im not picking the Cap2400's I got to listen to either. I still preferred the S36 sound over them. They were powerful , violent , and just plain crazy...but to say I am just picking sealed over ported because I didnt wanna look stupid for my decision , well thats getting into another category of conversation... I genuinely enjoy the S36's so much , I bought a 3rd , albeit an S3000i but sealed. I am not trying to sway the world of ported people to sealed people , some just have a genuine curiosity like I did with Marcs F18's. Seeing that I have been thru quite a number of subs , mostly ported , these past 2 years I try to share what I thought or felt about them and any differences that I may have noticed. Seeing that I dont contribute much to the technical side of things or worry much about the Db wars , its the least I can do.
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post #42445 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:17 PM
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There is where I'm confused....room size knob is no where similar to gain right? So the room size knob only affects certain frequencies similar to PEQ vs the whole freq spectrum?

And how do you test it or know which setting the knob should be at? I could perhaps play a scene and try it min and max but how would someone fine tune the room size knob?

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Last edited by ereed; 05-15-2018 at 03:21 PM.
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post #42446 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
Well im not picking the Cap2400's I got to listen to either. I still preferred the S36 sound over them. They were powerful , violent , and just plain crazy...but to say I am just picking sealed over ported because I didnt wanna look stupid for my decision , well thats getting into another category of conversation... I genuinely enjoy the S36's so much , I bought a 3rd , albeit an S3000i but sealed. I am not trying to sway the world of ported people to sealed people , some just have a genuine curiosity like I did with Marcs F18's. Seeing that I have been thru quite a number of subs , mostly ported , these past 2 years I try to share what I thought or felt about them and any differences that I may have noticed. Seeing that I dont contribute much to the technical side of things or worry much about the Db wars , its the least I can do.
Hey, I am glad that you are willing to experiment and found what you like better in your HT! That is all that matters.

I cannot tell you how many times I wanted to try sealed subs in my HT but I am frugal and just don't want to eat the freight cost... At least I know that I like TR and port wind so going with ported works out best for me.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
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post #42447 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
Once the veil is lifted and you hear a good sealed sub, you'll never go back to ported. To me sealed is just clearer, you hear every little note and there's no muddiness to the sound.
This I can't agree with. That's a myth that applies only when you are comparing a sealed sub to a low quality ported sub. I have both the sealed S1801 and the ported V3601's and I can tell you that the V3601 is no muddier than my S1801. They both play bass with great clarity and definition.

A high quality ported sub calibrated correctly and properly integrated into the room will play just as well as a high quality sealed sub. If it doesn't then the person either has a budget one note wonder ported subwoofer or doesn't know how to integrate a sub into a room correctly.

Bottom line is this, if you try to push a ported sub beyond it's capabilities you get port noise but if you over drive a sealed sub beyond it's capabilities you will also get some ugly noises. All subs have their limitations and all subs can be made to cry out for mercy if you push them too hard. To avoid that you need headroom.

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Last edited by Hopinater; 05-15-2018 at 07:04 PM.
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post #42448 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:46 PM
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Just got around to watching LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring for the first time....ever. Yeah, I'm late to the party. I'm only an hour in as it's time for bed, but so far this movie has some incredible bass. A great sine wave at the beginning with a mass explosion that wiped out the planet. With my 15V I ran Audyssey which came back at -6db, a little higher than I would like, but I didn't want to calibrate again. I then went up 8db on the sub amp itself, then 2db on the AVR trim to bring it to a total of 10db hot. This is without DEQ.

For most of the movie so far the bass was just great. There were, however, a few scenes where the sub had to work really hard with a lot of port noise, granted only for 4-5 seconds, but pretty distracting. I even lowered the trim to -11db with this scene to see what happened, which would bring my total "hotness" of sub at 3db. At master volume -14db, you could still hear some vent noise, but on a much smaller scale. My guess is the scene I'm referring to is around the 15Vs port tune, because as I said, in the majority of the movie I've had no complaints...which brings me to my next thought...

I keep reading on these sealed subs...people just seem to love them! The S3000i looks really intriguing and I like the idea of eliminating port noise all together. If that s3000i can give me the bass I experience now with my 15V, this is a very tempting trial for me. Because of the way our basement is set up right now, I can only do a single sub at the moment, but I know with some saving of money and time I could purchase a second down the road. Would I really be giving up much of the lower bass with the S3000i?
We keep going round and round with this. Stop, do not pass go, do not collect 200.00. From your measurements from a month or 2 ago, Audyssey is boosting the piss out of the lower frequencies to correct the response. Then to top it off, you are adding 10db of boost to the sub. The subs is being over driven because of the piss poor native response. You need dual subs for that room to split the load and smooth the response so Audyssey has less work to do.

Edit*

Not trying to come off being rude, just trying to get the point across. You have measured several positions with just the 15v and seen that Audyssey is applying a lot of EQ to fix the response. you then borrowed a PC13 from your friend and had good results. So I am confused why we are back to square 1? Turn off audyssey all together and that will tell you if it's the Room correction causing the issue...not DEQ but Audyssey itself. That is the first thing I always recommend if you are noticing some anamolies after a calibration. Either way you need 2 subs in that room.

Last edited by basshead81; 05-15-2018 at 04:07 PM.
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post #42449 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:46 PM
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Another thing is subwoofer placement which in my opinion is the most important factor. An amazing subwoofer can be made to sound like crap in a bad spot.
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post #42450 of 54571 Old 05-15-2018, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
There is where I'm confused....room size knob is no where similar to gain right? So the room size knob only affects certain frequencies similar to PEQ vs the whole freq spectrum?

And how do you test it or know which setting the knob should be at? I could perhaps play a scene and try it min and max but how would someone fine tune the room size knob?
Simply sweep FR with REW at MAX MID & MIN to see the effects in your room. Here are the shapes of the filters set in the DSP.
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