Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1417 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #42481 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 05:27 AM
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post #42482 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 11:36 AM
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I've been getting questions about our amplifier ratings and how a sub with "only" 725 watts" can compete with subwoofers having much more power with increasing regularity lately. There's two main considerations here.

1) system efficiency or how much output the subwoofer produces relative to a one watt of input power.

This is a big wildcard as this can vary wildly from product to product. Differences of 10dB aren't uncommon and I've seen differences more than 20dB. That is significant as even a 3dB difference indicates a doubling of the power requirements. 10dB = 10x(!) the amp power. Subwoofer A may need 5000 watts to produce the same output as subwoofer B with 500 watts. I'm not going to get into a "our way is the only good way to design a subwoofer" discussion but one thing I have learned over the years is that "xmax" tells me very little about how well a driver is going to sound. There's a few other T/S specifications that have a much greater influence and one of those is sensitivity/efficiency. This lets me know how well the driver is going to convert (amp) voltage into mechanical movement.

2) audio amplifier ratings. There's no/little industry standard in this regard...especially for subwoofers.

We under rated the ICE amplifier, at least in context to our implementation of them within our own products. I cannot speak for other brands of course. If we were rating things like the overwhelming majority of competitors do I'd say anything from 1000w to 1400w for our single driver subs and 2000w-2800w for our dual driver subs would be accurate. ICE has even changed their own documentation on the modules we use to indicate "1050 watts" for subwoofer use is accurate and ICE tends to be very conservative in this context.

https://icepower.dk/products/amplifi...les/as-series/

Of course, system optimization dictates everything. Spend 5 minutes on the DSP side and no, it's not optimized. Spend 5 weeks and you're getting closer

Anyway, the point being, looking at one specific component in a subwoofer (amp rating spec, driver xmax spec, etc) tends to be a poor indicator of how the product is going to sound in your room. And there can be dramatic differences in how much power two different subwoofers will require to reach a given output level..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #42483 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I've been getting questions about our amplifier ratings and how a sub with "only" 725 watts" can compete with subwoofers having much more power with increasing regularity lately. There's two main considerations here.

1) system efficiency or how much output the subwoofer produces relative to a one watt of input power.

This is a big wildcard as this can vary wildly from product to product. Differences of 10dB aren't uncommon and I've seen differences more than 20dB. That is significant as even a 3dB difference indicates a doubling of the power requirements. 10dB = 10x(!) the amp power. Subwoofer A may need 5000 watts to produce the same output as subwoofer B with 500 watts. I'm not going to get into a "our way is the only good way to design a subwoofer" discussion but one thing I have learned over the years is that "xmax" tells me very little about how well a driver is going to sound. There's a few other T/S specifications that have a much greater influence and one of those is sensitivity/efficiency. This lets me know how well the driver is going to convert (amp) voltage into mechanical movement.

2) audio amplifier ratings. There's no/little industry standard in this regard...especially for subwoofers.

We under rated the ICE amplifier, at least in context to our implementation of them within our own products. I cannot speak for other brands of course. If we were rating things like the overwhelming majority of competitors do I'd say anything from 1000w to 1400w for our single driver subs and 2000w-2800w for our dual driver subs would be accurate. ICE has even changed their own documentation on the modules we use to indicate "1050 watts" for subwoofer use is accurate and ICE tends to be very conservative in this context.

https://icepower.dk/products/amplifi...les/as-series/

Of course, system optimization dictates everything. Spend 5 minutes on the DSP side and no, it's not optimized. Spend 5 weeks and you're getting closer [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

Anyway, the point being, looking at one specific component in a subwoofer (amp rating spec, driver xmax spec, etc) tends to be a poor indicator of how the product is going to sound in your room. And there can be dramatic differences in how much power two different subwoofers will require to reach a given output level..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
As a beginner into this sub world a few months back I had similar thoughts as we're expressed to you except I kept mine to myself. I just thought, well I'm sure they know what they're doing and if this company is well-recommended then this wattage must not be the full story.

I'm glad I didn't let the 725 stop me from checking out PSA! Like I've said many times before, my v1801 is a beast!!
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post #42484 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I would feel more comfortable increasing gain/voltage knob if it clicked every time it was adjusted. When running multiple subs and adjusting the gain knob after Audy one better make sure all subs are increased equally.
There are pros and cons to knob detentions. The standard Speakerpower amps as well as those offered by other vendors have detents/clicks. PSA uses a customized version of the Ice amps that have no detents, no XLRs, and no 12V trigger inputs. I like the detents because it allows me to change settings and return to an previous setting exactly (especially since I have a 4-year-old who turns knobs). On, the Seaton F18+ each detent on the gain knob equals 1.5dB. However, this approach doesn't have the granularity that the PSA amps have sans detentions. When I go to run RoomPerfect there is a sub adjust prior. Instead of an adjustment range like Audyssey it simply says Too Quiet - turn volume up or Too Loud, turn volume down. With the F18s, I could not lock it in (I just skip and everything runs without issue). Here is where more granularity could be useful. I still prefer detentions but it is just a personal preference.

The T18 and S7201 use the torpedo amp and should feature XLR, detentions, and 12V trigger.
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post #42485 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
There are pros and cons to knob detentions. The standard Speakerpower amps as well as those offered by other vendors have detents/clicks. PSA uses a customized version of the Ice amps that have no detents, no XLRs, and no 12V trigger inputs. I like the detents because it allows me to change settings and return to an previous setting exactly (especially since I have a 4-year-old who turns knobs). On, the Seaton F18+ each detent on the gain knob equals 1.5dB. However, this approach doesn't have the granularity that the PSA amps have sans detentions. When I go to run RoomPerfect there is a sub adjust prior. Instead of an adjustment range like Audyssey it simply says Too Quiet - turn volume up or Too Loud, turn volume down. With the F18s, I could not lock it in (I just skip and everything runs without issue). Here is where more granularity could be useful. I still prefer detentions but it is just a personal preference.



The T18 and S7201 use the torpedo amp and should feature XLR, detentions, and 12V trigger.


I’d loveeeeee detents personally


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post #42486 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
As a beginner into this sub world a few months back I had similar thoughts as we're expressed to you except I kept mine to myself. I just thought, well I'm sure they know what they're doing and if this company is well-recommended then this wattage must not be the full story.

I'm glad I didn't let the 725 stop me from checking out PSA! Like I've said many times before, my v1801 is a beast!!
Yeah, I take full responsibility for the mis-leading specifications. I didn't have time to put much thought into the whole process way back when. And let's face it, 15 inch drivers are 16's, HDF is the new magic material, 18 inch drivers are inherently "slow" and boomy, and the lost goes on and on. So I say "our amps are really 1100 watt single driver and 2150w dual driver" and its likely to just get lumped in with the same "pile" as all of the above

But it really IS true..

Tom V.
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post #42487 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
There are pros and cons to knob detentions. The standard Speakerpower amps as well as those offered by other vendors have detents/clicks. PSA uses a customized version of the Ice amps that have no detents, no XLRs, and no 12V trigger inputs. I like the detents because it allows me to change settings and return to an previous setting exactly (especially since I have a 4-year-old who turns knobs). On, the Seaton F18+ each detent on the gain knob equals 1.5dB. However, this approach doesn't have the granularity that the PSA amps have sans detentions. When I go to run RoomPerfect there is a sub adjust prior. Instead of an adjustment range like Audyssey it simply says Too Quiet - turn volume up or Too Loud, turn volume down. With the F18s, I could not lock it in (I just skip and everything runs without issue). Here is where more granularity could be useful. I still prefer detentions but it is just a personal preference.

The T18 and S7201 use the torpedo amp and should feature XLR, detentions, and 12V trigger.
The S7201 torpedo doesn't have detents, does have XLR and 12V trigger. The two 2400 sp amps I have are also smooth. It only takes a small movement for a significant change in output for the S7201, I could see detents causing problem when trying to reach an expected 75db pre calibration.
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post #42488 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
The S7201 torpedo doesn't have detents, does have XLR and 12V trigger. The two 2400 sp amps I have are also smooth. It only takes a small movement for a significant change in output for the S7201, I could see detents causing problem when trying to reach an expected 75db pre calibration.
Very interesting. I don't have a clue then. Maybe the detentions are something unique to Seaton and JTR amps (although I think some JTRs didn't have them… I just can't keep it straight in my head)?
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post #42489 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 05:33 PM
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I do the opposite, I get to -11 on both and then turn the gain to 12 on sub amp. They both probably do the same thing LOL


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Unless you are measuring the exact SPL you are increasing with the sub gain, one method is random, the other is precise.
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post #42490 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 06:47 PM
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Not your typical sub thread

I was looking at some forum numbers right now and i can see why a lot of non-PSA owners jump in here often. I'm not completely sure but I think we have the most posts out of any other "Official" AVS Sub thread out there!

Whether some are haters, or maybe it's ppl who are new to subs who heard about PSA, or maybe some veterans of the sub game who although may not have PSA subs but still come give their useful knowledge....whoever it may be....everyone is still reading!

Random I know lol, but just something I wanted to share.
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post #42491 of 54608 Old 05-16-2018, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Very interesting. I don't have a clue then. Maybe the detentions are something unique to Seaton and JTR amps (although I think some JTRs didn't have them… I just can't keep it straight in my head)?
I'm sure it's a simple OEM preference/choice.
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post #42492 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 09:34 AM
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I hear Blue Jeans Cable recommended often but would this Amazon one be alot worse? The price has me wondering.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01D5...ble&psc=1&th=1
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post #42493 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 09:39 AM
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I started with cheapo sub cables, and have blue jeans cables now. When i bought the quality sub i figured id get decent cables (nothing crazy) to go with it. I havent tried swapping cables to see if i could hear a difference. Im guessing i wouldnt.

50 ft is a long cable, but i dont believe that matters as much for subs. Give it a shot and if you dont feel it works out, get a better one.

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post #42494 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
I hear Blue Jeans Cable recommended often but would this Amazon one be alot worse? The price has me wondering.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01D5...ble&psc=1&th=1


Those or ones from media bridge will work just fine


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post #42495 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
I hear Blue Jeans Cable recommended often but would this Amazon one be alot worse? The price has me wondering.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01D5...ble&psc=1&th=1
It's no risk, because if it doesn't work out, you can return it as defective and get a full refund.
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post #42496 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
The S7201 torpedo doesn't have detents, does have XLR and 12V trigger. The two 2400 sp amps I have are also smooth. It only takes a small movement for a significant change in output for the S7201, I could see detents causing problem when trying to reach an expected 75db pre calibration.
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Very interesting. I don't have a clue then. Maybe the detentions are something unique to Seaton and JTR amps (although I think some JTRs didn't have them… I just can't keep it straight in my head)?
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I'm sure it's a simple OEM preference/choice.
Each manufacturer can request either a standard/continuously variable knob (actually potentiometer) or a detented one. With all of the modern SpeakerPower amplifier controls the knob function is controlled by the DSP which each of us program and modify from a simple starting point as we see fit. I guarantee that if you compare how the knobs function between a Power Sound, JTR, or my version of the 4000W or 700W SpeakerPower amplifiers, they will all function a little differently, as the designer can change them with just the click of a mouse.

There are benefits to both approaches. The down side to very sensitive knobs is that it gets extremely difficult to set two different units to the same value or to come back to the same value. Of course the down side is when you want a value between two positions.

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post #42497 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Each manufacturer can request either a standard/continuously variable knob (actually potentiometer) or a detented one. With all of the modern SpeakerPower amplifier controls the knob function is controlled by the DSP which each of us program and modify from a simple starting point as we see fit. I guarantee that if you compare how the knobs function between a Power Sound, JTR, or my version of the 4000W or 700W SpeakerPower amplifiers, they will all function a little differently, as the designer can change them with just the click of a mouse.

There are benefits to both approaches. The down side to very sensitive knobs is that it gets extremely difficult to set two different units to the same value or to come back to the same value. Of course the down side is when you want a value between two positions.
Thanks Mark! Can DIYers request either? @Pradeep2 ?
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post #42498 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BryceDH View Post
I started with cheapo sub cables, and have blue jeans cables now. When i bought the quality sub i figured id get decent cables (nothing crazy) to go with it. I havent tried swapping cables to see if i could hear a difference. Im guessing i wouldnt.

50 ft is a long cable, but i dont believe that matters as much for subs. Give it a shot and if you dont feel it works out, get a better one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Those or ones from media bridge will work just fine
Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
It's no risk, because if it doesn't work out, you can return it as defective and get a full refund.
Thanks guys. I already have Mediabtidge but wanted to try Amazon out. In the end I chose to stick with Mediabtidge. I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?

I ordered a 25ft, a 6ft, and y splitter...all for $30, not bad at all I think.
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Does a hum from the subs affect performance at all or it just more of an annoyance? I think I might have a very slight one , either that or its my pool pump outside. Havent really investigated that hard , because its very faint and can only hear it sometimes if the house is dead quiet. Certainly nothing im going to chase down , but was just curious if anyone has noticed an improvement after getting rid of the hum?
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post #42500 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Each manufacturer can request either a standard/continuously variable knob (actually potentiometer) or a detented one. With all of the modern SpeakerPower amplifier controls the knob function is controlled by the DSP which each of us program and modify from a simple starting point as we see fit. I guarantee that if you compare how the knobs function between a Power Sound, JTR, or my version of the 4000W or 700W SpeakerPower amplifiers, they will all function a little differently, as the designer can change them with just the click of a mouse.

There are benefits to both approaches. The down side to very sensitive knobs is that it gets extremely difficult to set two different units to the same value or to come back to the same value. Of course the down side is when you want a value between two positions.

Thanks for the clarification, Mark! FWIW, I have heard of owners using a magic marker, or a small piece of tape, to indicate calibrated and preferred settings on an ungraduated potentiometer.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #42501 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 04:29 PM
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Just got around to watching LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring for the first time....ever. Yeah, I'm late to the party. I'm only an hour in as it's time for bed, but so far this movie has some incredible bass. A great sine wave at the beginning with a mass explosion that wiped out the planet. With my 15V I ran Audyssey which came back at -6db, a little higher than I would like, but I didn't want to calibrate again. I then went up 8db on the sub amp itself, then 2db on the AVR trim to bring it to a total of 10db hot. This is without DEQ.

For most of the movie so far the bass was just great. There were, however, a few scenes where the sub had to work really hard with a lot of port noise, granted only for 4-5 seconds, but pretty distracting. I even lowered the trim to -11db with this scene to see what happened, which would bring my total "hotness" of sub at 3db. At master volume -14db, you could still hear some vent noise, but on a much smaller scale. My guess is the scene I'm referring to is around the 15Vs port tune, because as I said, in the majority of the movie I've had no complaints...which brings me to my next thought...

I keep reading on these sealed subs...people just seem to love them! The S3000i looks really intriguing and I like the idea of eliminating port noise all together. If that s3000i can give me the bass I experience now with my 15V, this is a very tempting trial for me. Because of the way our basement is set up right now, I can only do a single sub at the moment, but I know with some saving of money and time I could purchase a second down the road. Would I really be giving up much of the lower bass with the S3000i?
There aren't a lot of 15V owners here. Glad to see another one!

So, I am curious how you know you added 8db on the sub amp. My 15Vs are just dots. Did you just count dots, or something? It would be news to me if you are able to convert the dots to db. Based on my experience with two separate 15V setups in my house, I recommend you try this:

1) Use only 1 RCA input on the sub (do not use a Y connector to use both inputs). Gain knob between noon and 1pm. Delay set to minimum. Crossover set to maximum. Room size set to maximum.
2) Run audyssey. Hopefully it sets the sub trim between -11.5 and -6. Honestly, no big deal if it comes back -12 (or whatever max negative is in your AVR). Set speaker crossovers no higher than 80. I also prefer to lower the LPF for LFE down a bit.
3) Turn on DEQ. Turn off DVOL (actually I like DVOL for tv watching).
4) Test it. Add heat to the sub trim to your liking. You may only have to come up a couple db if audyssey brought back max negative. I go 6-8db hot with DEQ on, depending on content, typically watching at -20mv at most. The sub just pounds. Can't imagine watching any louder than that in my ~1980 cubic foot sealed movie space. I played MMFR through it for the first time the other day and it was awesome.

Also, with DEQ on, make sure your reference level offset is 0. That is the default, so it probably is.

Denon, Polk, Parasound, PSA

Last edited by mdameron; 05-17-2018 at 04:46 PM.
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post #42502 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 04:51 PM
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So, I am curious how you know you added 8db on the sub amp. My 15Vs are just dots. Did you just count dots, or something? It would be news to me if you are able to convert the dots to db.
I lay my SPL meter directly in front of the sub on the floor and adjust the gain. Works a treat!


Quote:
2) Run audyssey. Hopefully it sets the sub trim between -11.5 and -6. Honestly, no big deal if it comes back -12 (or whatever max negative is in your AVR).
It's a "big deal" to those of us who would like to know exactly how hot we are running. If you don't care whether you're running 8dB hot or 18dB (or 28dB for that matter) hot, then go ahead and hit those limits...most around here will not agree.


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Set speaker crossovers no higher than 80.
The proper crossover setting is room/speaker/listener dependent. Personally, mine are set to 90hz...but I have tried up to 120hz. Recommending that folks don't go higher than 80hz is just limiting their options. In some rooms/systems, higher crossovers can actually work and sound better.


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I also prefer to lower the LPF for LFE down a bit.
There are a multitude of reasons why not to do this, although a lot of guys around here prefer to set the LPF the same as their main crossover and say it sound better to them. Again, I have tried this as well and found the default of 120hz to sound and measure better (in my room/system). I say experiment with it, and if you have the ability to measure you will know which setting gives you a better response.
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post #42503 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 05:21 PM
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It's a "big deal" to those of us who would like to know exactly how hot we are running.

The proper crossover setting is room/speaker/listener dependent. Personally, mine are set to 90hz...but I have tried up to 120hz.

Again, I have tried this as well and found the default of 120hz to sound and measure better (in my room/system). I say experiment with it, and if you have the ability to measure you will know which setting gives you a better response.
In short, what sounds good to your ear is what you should do. I have the same sub and make of AVR as the guy and posted what I do.

Knowing precisely how hot you're running and the LFE response you're getting are secondary objectives to getting it to where it sounds good to you.

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I lay my SPL meter directly in front of the sub on the floor and adjust the gain. Works a treat!
Is that how butie120 did it?

Denon, Polk, Parasound, PSA

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post #42504 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 05:27 PM
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Me and the lil guy just before playing White Clouds decaf bass boosted. We were making our voices vibrate lol
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post #42505 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 06:06 PM
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Ok, since people seem to like to post cute pictures on this thread, I understand people weren't able to see one I posted a month ago, so here goes again.

Dog watching movies:
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post #42506 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 08:47 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Hardly scientific, but nonetheless fun to mess with... I tested the gain going from 9:00 to 12:00 and then 12:00 to 3:00 on the PSA v3601, to determine how much gain I was adding. I don’t mess with the AVR trim level post audyssey.

From my amateur testing, it seems that 9:00 to 12:00 gave 10 db gain and 12:00 to 3:00 gave 6 db. In don’t run DEQ and run with room size large pre and post Audyssey.

I had experimented with this a few months back and thought I remember telling myself that each dot was a tad above 3 db. Turns out that’s approximately correct. I don’t run above 12:00-1:00, but many do, so I’m not really concerned with the gain values near 3:00, but I measured them for comparison sakes.

Anyways...


Edit: my damn drywall is LOUD

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post #42507 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bargugl View Post
Ok, since people seem to like to post cute pictures on this thread, I understand people weren't able to see one I posted a month ago, so here goes again.

Dog watching movies:
Looks like a scary movie! Kujo, Man's Best Friend?
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post #42508 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
Hardly scientific, but nonetheless fun to mess with... I tested the gain going from 9:00 to 12:00 and then 12:00 to 3:00 on the PSA v3601, to determine how much gain I was adding. I don’t mess with the AVR trim level post audyssey.

From my amateur testing, it seems that 9:00 to 12:00 gave 10 db gain and 12:00 to 3:00 gave 6 db. In don’t run DEQ and run with room size large pre and post Audyssey.

I had experimented with this a few months back and thought I remember telling myself that each dot was a tad above 3 db. Turns out that’s approximately correct. I don’t run above 12:00-1:00, but many do, so I’m not really concerned with the gain values near 3:00, but I measured them for comparison sakes.

Anyways... https://youtu.be/mZBWcedh5-I


Edit: my damn drywall is LOUD

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I will test the v1801 tomorrow as I am curious if it’s gain will be similar. I’ll use the same exact setup and placement, etc.


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post #42509 of 54608 Old 05-17-2018, 09:50 PM
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sounds about right...going from 11-12 on my sub amps increased levels +3db
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post #42510 of 54608 Old 05-18-2018, 05:16 AM
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Expecting a 15v today with a boom stand and a miniDSP UMIK-1. Going head first into my first serious subwoofer. Its replacing a elemental a2-300. Hoping its a nice upgrade and i'm sure it will be. Cant wait to crawl around on the floor all night and learn REW. Could anyone point me in the right direction for a intro into REW.
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