Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1420 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #42571 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jgourlie View Post
All of you 15v owners that seem to have popped up, especially those with REW my room is 3200ft3 and open to the rest of my basement on concrete slab. I am totally considering just going near field behind my couch as I am not quite sure that a 15v is going to be able to pressurize that room at all, and if I put it at the front of the room it would be 17ft away from my couch, if I put it at the back of the room in the corner opposite the entrance it would only be 6ft away.

What do you 15v owners think I should do?
I agree with anyone suggesting going nearfield. I don't own a 15V but I owned an XV15se (pretty comparable) in a 5200 cubic foot (plus) basement on concrete so I have a very good idea of what you're looking at. If you're trying actually pressurize that entire space with that one sub it will struggle. But if you go nearfield you should be able to get a lot more satisfaction from it.

If you end up going duals down the road you should be very happy. If you go duals nearfield you should be VERY happy.

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post #42572 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
This is exactly what I'm saying. I think people are confusing LFE .1 content with the speaker/sub xover rolloff. Or maybe they are not confused and set it lower such as 80hz for LFE, but if you do that then what will play 80-120hz? Definitely not the other speakers since its .1 LFE only which goes to subs and nothing else. So that is content they are missing IMO.

My prepro doesn't have LFE setting and its set 120hz from factory which is a good thing....but I do have sub/speaker xover settings separately.
Yep, setting the LPF of LFE at 80hz you will be missing out on the 80-120hz area. (well not ALL because it's not a exact cutoff, it's rolled off gradually at wherever you set it). But not all content on the LFE (.1) channel may be a good thing above 80hz. In Mike's (mthomas47) post and the references he used said it way better than I could have HERE and Mark Seaton's as well.

As far as the content above 80hz being meaningful or not in the LFE channel, maybe some of it is and some isn't. Like Mike, I just find that it can sound a little muddier at 120hz and have a little more bloat/boomy sound to it. Too my ears, like his it seems, it's cleaner sounding set lower, especially if you like to run your subs hot (which I do and am up around 10-15db hot a lot of time like him - no DEQ). Lowering the LPF of LFE actually allows me to run my subs hotter while still staying clean sounding, giving more tactile and powerful feel/slam in the 90hz and under area. I tried to describe all this in a thread I started about it a year or so ago on this. I don't know how successful of a thread it was, but this setting made a real nice difference for me and a few others as well.

But as had been said, not everyone will feel the same about it and I'm sure a lot of variables will influence this: Room, Equipment (what sub(s) and AVR you have), your FR (whether you run a flat FR and how hot you run your subs (that FR) above your speakers, how strong of a rising house curve you may run), sub placements (because this can have an effect as well, even with the same looking FR), etc.

But yes, some receivers wont allow the LPF of LFE to be changed. In that case, your stuck with 120hz, which s not a bad thing necessarily. Your just stuck with that, like it or not.

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post #42573 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Yep, setting the LPF of LFE at 80hz you will be missing out on the 80-120hz area. (well not ALL because it's not a exact cutoff, it's rolled off gradually at wherever you set it). But not all content on the LFE (.1) channel may be a good thing above 80hz. In Mike's (mthomas47) post and the references he used said it way better than I could have HERE and Mark Seaton's as well.

As far as the content above 80hz being meaningful or not in the LFE channel, maybe some of it is and some isn't. Like Mike, I just find that it can sound a little muddier at 120hz and have a little more bloat/boomy sound to it. Too my ears, like his it seems, it's cleaner sounding set lower, especially if you like to run your subs hot (which I do and am up around 10-15db hot a lot of time like him - no DEQ). Lowering the LPF of LFE actually allows me to run my subs hotter while still staying clean sounding, giving more tactile and powerful feel/slam in the 90hz and under area. I tried to describe all this in a thread I started about it a year or so ago on this. I don't know how successful of a thread it was, but this setting made a real nice difference for me and a few others as well.

But as had been said, not everyone will feel the same about it and I'm sure a lot of variables will influence this: Room, Equipment (what sub(s) and AVR you have), your FR (whether you run a flat FR and how hot you run your subs (that FR) above your speakers, how strong of a rising house curve you may run), sub placements (because this can have an effect as well, even with the same looking FR), etc.

But yes, some receivers wont allow the LPF of LFE to be changed. In that case, your stuck with 120hz, which s not a bad thing necessarily. Your just stuck with that, like it or not.
You Mike and Mark all make great points. I think this is another example of the importance of spending time actually LISTENING to your system and tweaking it by ear after you're done measuring everything. As you pointed out earlier, spend time figuring out what YOU like, don't just blindly calibrate based on the collective wisdom of the threads. It's really important that we all learn to trust our ears for the fine tuning because in the end it's our ears that will be doing the listening.

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post #42574 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Quick clarification on my own recommendation on this. It is less about if content above 80Hz is meaningful, rather that most of us will have the subwoofer overall set higher than the main speakers. When we set the sub higher its effect with the main speakers is limited to taper off with the low pass setting of your main speakers. As such frequencies at and above the crossover frequency taper into the response of the main speakers as frequency rises. Since the LFE channel and bass from the mains are all part of the "sub" output, such a setting boosts the entire LFE channel frequency range up to the LFE low pass frequency; 120Hz typically by default. The more you boost the level of the subwoofer channel rather than just tilting up the lowest frequencies, the more you raise the content above ~80Hz. Since a large majority of you cross your speakers at 80Hz or lower, this can make the LFE channel a bit strong in the top end of it's range. The low pass is a slope, not a cliff, and lowering the frequency simply tilts down the highest frequencies more vs the 120Hz setting.

Think of this as the opposite of tilting up the low frequencies of your subwoofer by using PSA's room size control or my LF Adjust. This tilts down the upper range if you have it set a bit hot. Since this is only on the LFE channel, you won't hear it on music, and possibly less so on some scenes you demo. In short, the more you raise the subwoofer level from a calibrated flat energy, the more I would suggest lowering the LFE low pass might sound preferable. Despite how many portray such adjustments as wrong or deviation from accurate, we're simply saying this is an entirely justifiable and warranted adjustment you can use to get the best result in your room, just as we often tell you not to be afraid to raise the subwoofer to get the balance you prefer.

Thank you for the clarification, Mark! As always, your explanation makes a lot of sense, and I will be careful to word what I am saying, about your suggestion to consider trying a lower LPF, more carefully in the future.

Regards,
Mike

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post #42575 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
You Mike and Mark all make great points. I think this is another example of the importance of spending time actually LISTENING to your system and tweaking it by ear after you're done measuring everything. As you pointed out earlier, spend time figuring out what YOU like, don't just blindly calibrate based on the collective wisdom of the threads. It's really important that we all learn to trust our ears for the fine tuning because in the end it's our ears that will be doing the listening.
Well said Hop!!
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post #42576 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 08:44 PM
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It's been a while since i messed with the LFE low pass which i always left at 120Hz until a few months ago where i found i liked 100Hz better at that time (maybe cause it was something different and new idunno). I may try SBurgers suggestion going back to 120 and replaying some content reducing 10Hz at a time and pay attention (which seems difficult for me at times) to see if there is a sweet spot in my room that i may have overlooked. I'm really happy up to 120 Hz as its very clean up top especially with my small mains.
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post #42577 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Good lord, I just read the last few pages of the JTR thread...what a train wreck! Now I know why I see some members posting here that use to frequent that thread. At least there is a good group of guys here in this thread.
I used to read that thread but I unsubscribed and haven't been back in a while for my own good reasons. That's why I like this thread, it stays pretty positive and helpful. You can post here and no one really cares what sub you own as long as you are friendly and helpful. Basically there's a lot of respect for other sub manufacturers on this thread and I think that's pretty cool. So yeah... this is a great group of guys and this is the best thread on AVS IMO.

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post #42578 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 09:00 PM
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I have one of those AVR's that won't allow a change to the LPF of LFE, do I care, not at all. I have outboard processing that allows so many tweaks it's mind boggling. After many hours of measuring and tweaking and many, many more listening, I found what sounds best to me.
Some may call my setup unorthodox, but, it's my system, room and ears...THAT'S what matters, not someone else opinion.
What did I end up with, all HPF's at 80hz 24db L-R, all LPF's at 80hz BW, 3db hot for movies, 5db hot for music.
The bottom line is, use all the tools you have to get it measuring good, THEN TUNE TO TASTE.

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post #42579 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 09:14 PM
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On another note, the wife insisted on a new couch. This required moving the MLP back 6" and sun #1 to an alternate position, previously the second best spot for it. While it still sounds pretty good, I now need to measure, tweak and tune all over again...Settings may need to change

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post #42580 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Good lord, I just read the last few pages of the JTR thread...what a train wreck! Now I know why I see some members posting here that use to frequent that thread. At least there is a good group of guys here in this thread.
Lots of great guys on the JTR thread, but i have my own reasons for been a bit disengaged which are not related to them at all. I love the vibe on this thread as it, and the bass and frequency charts in movies are my go to threads. As mentioned, just a great group of people here and are a welcoming group for none PSA owners. Thanks!

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post #42581 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 09:36 PM
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When I had my twin 15v's I experimented with both of them nearfield. I actually put them both on their sides and this allowed the drivers to fire directly into the back of my couch/mlp. (About an inch or so away)
It worked really well and the tactile sensation was out of this world, especially with really feeling the lower bass.
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post #42582 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 10:14 PM
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How is a 120hz LFE sound any different than a 120hz regular sound, and why would you want either coming out of a subwoofer?

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post #42583 of 54505 Old 05-18-2018, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdameron View Post
How is a 120hz LFE sound any different than a 120hz regular sound, and why would you want either coming out of a subwoofer?
The 120hz LFE is the .1 that the mixer uses as he/she sees fit for the sound track. The 120hz everything else is what you send to the sub in your system. They are different as the .1 mix would never go to the other speakers, the everything else at 120hz gets moved from the other speakers to the sub.
See the difference now?

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post #42584 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Quick clarification on my own recommendation on this. It is less about if content above 80Hz is meaningful, rather that most of us will have the subwoofer overall set higher than the main speakers. When we set the sub higher its effect with the main speakers is limited to taper off with the low pass setting of your main speakers. As such frequencies at and above the crossover frequency taper into the response of the main speakers as frequency rises. Since the LFE channel and bass from the mains are all part of the "sub" output, such a setting boosts the entire LFE channel frequency range up to the LFE low pass frequency; 120Hz typically by default. The more you boost the level of the subwoofer channel rather than just tilting up the lowest frequencies, the more you raise the content above ~80Hz. Since a large majority of you cross your speakers at 80Hz or lower, this can make the LFE channel a bit strong in the top end of it's range. The low pass is a slope, not a cliff, and lowering the frequency simply tilts down the highest frequencies more vs the 120Hz setting.

Think of this as the opposite of tilting up the low frequencies of your subwoofer by using PSA's room size control or my LF Adjust. This tilts down the upper range if you have it set a bit hot. Since this is only on the LFE channel, you won't hear it on music, and possibly less so on some scenes you demo. In short, the more you raise the subwoofer level from a calibrated flat energy, the more I would suggest lowering the LFE low pass might sound preferable. Despite how many portray such adjustments as wrong or deviation from accurate, we're simply saying this is an entirely justifiable and warranted adjustment you can use to get the best result in your room, just as we often tell you not to be afraid to raise the subwoofer to get the balance you prefer.
If I may, just wanted to post this diagram. At first blush it looks like the ubiquitous bass management diagrams we've seen for years. But this one includes particular detail that is relevant to this discussion.



First, notice there's a lowpass filter in the LFE signal path. This is quite separate from the other LPF which is part of the crossover filters for the main channels.

The LFE LPF is the one Mark is talking about adjusting, and it has no affect on any of the bass redirected from the main channels. Please note that relatively few AV processors actually expose the LFE filter setting to the end user. For example neither of mine do so.

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post #42585 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@Mark Seaton and @Roger Dressler are both amazing and humble. But I don't think Roger wants credit as the creator of DPL and DPLII (Jim Fosgate). Roger should eventually jump in and clarify his involvement in the creation of Dolby codecs (like DD+ and True HD).
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post #42586 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Quick clarification on my own recommendation on this. It is less about if content above 80Hz is meaningful, rather that most of us will have the subwoofer overall set higher than the main speakers....

In short, the more you raise the subwoofer level from a calibrated flat energy, the more I would suggest lowering the LFE low pass might sound preferable. Despite how many portray such adjustments as wrong or deviation from accurate, we're simply saying this is an entirely justifiable and warranted adjustment you can use to get the best result in your room, just as we often tell you not to be afraid to raise the subwoofer to get the balance you prefer.
Thanks Mark for the clarification. I have never thought of content from 80-120 as being not meaningful either.

I do not raise my subwoofer above calibrated, and leave my LFE alone, so your advice makes me feel like I'm on the right track. :-)

I am thinking a movie would sound different from creator's intent if subwoofer level is raised and LFE is "tilted" as you mentioned: where LFE content comes in, this setting would not provide LFE content as fully/accurately/loudly as is intended, relative to the rest of sound. Less LFE dynamic, so to speak. For this reason, I would like to "adjust to taste" elsewhere, overall subwoofer level for example, not the LFE's range (sure "tilted" is not brick-wall, but still, NOT the same as "not tilted" :-)). Your thought on this please?

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post #42587 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 05:09 AM
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I'm trying my sub nearfield again to see how this impacts SPL levels and allowing the sub to work less hard. I took a graph with Audyssey on vs off, and can't figure out why Audyssey is choosing create a dip from about 23-31hz. It's flat in this area before audyssey, but then once engaged it drops off by about 6-7db in this area. I'm really confused here...
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post #42588 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
I'm trying my sub nearfield again to see how this impacts SPL levels and allowing the sub to work less hard. I took a graph with Audyssey on vs off, and can't figure out why Audyssey is choosing create a dip from about 23-31hz. It's flat in this area before audyssey, but then once engaged it drops off by about 6-7db in this area. I'm really confused here...
You have to look at it in its entirety...

Without Audyssey, you have a dip centered at 67Hz. Your FR also drops like a rock below 23Hz.

Audyssey make your FR +-5dB from 12Hz to 100Hz.

And you're still not happy?

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post #42589 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
You have to look at it in its entirety...

Without Audyssey, you have a dip centered at 67Hz. Your FR also drops like a rock below 23Hz.

Audyssey make your FR +-5dB from 12Hz to 100Hz.

And you're still not happy?
When did I say I wasn't happy? I just asked for clarification is all. It brought up the dip at 67hz, but created a small null at the 23hz mark. So, was just curious is all.

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post #42590 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mdameron View Post
How is a 120hz LFE sound any different than a 120hz regular sound, and why would you want either coming out of a subwoofer?
I think that, in some respects, there really isn't a difference, except that the subwoofers are intended to play the LFE content. The bass content could actually be the same in some cases, where both the regular channels and the LFE channel are playing the same low-frequency effects, such as an earthquake or a helicopter. But, as long as you have subwoofers in your HT system, the LFE content (which is 10db louder than the content in the regular channels) will be played by the subwoofers and not by any other transducers. So, if you want to hear that content it will need to come from your subs.

Most good subwoofers can play 120Hz content with no issues, so having those sounds coming from the subwoofers would be no problem at all, unless it contributed to localization. The point that Mark was making is that, if you are running your subwoofers hot, as most people do, then all of the frequencies from 10Hz (or whatever) up to 120Hz (and slightly above) will be boosted equally. And, due to the way our hearing works, the 100Hz and 120Hz frequencies may now sound comparatively louder than they should. But, it is tied in part to your bass boost, and to how significant it is.

If you don't boost your bass frequencies to start with, and if there is no localization of the subwoofer, then there may be no reason to ever use anything other than a 120Hz LPF of LFE. But, we don't hear low-frequencies as well as those in our more normal hearing range, which is why most of us need to add bass, after calibrating, if we are watching movies at below Reference levels. Movies are recorded to have frequencies in equilibrium at Reference volume levels. In a home theater, somewhere between about -5 MV and -8 MV may be equivalently loud to what we would hear in a commercial theater. So, bass frequencies could still be in relative equilibrium a little below Reference, although I'm not sure how much below.

But, most of us don't watch movies at -5 MV. I think that the average listening level is much more likely to be around -15, or lower. At those listening levels, the bass frequencies will not be in equilibrium with what the film mixer and director intended. (This is due to the Equal Loudness Contours which illustrate the way we hear. Our ability to hear lower frequencies, at equivalent loudness, decreases as the frequencies drop--especially below ~120Hz.) So, most of us boost our subwoofers to compensate for our below Reference listening levels.

And, of course there is also a healthy portion of personal preference involved. Some of us may not hear low-frequencies as well as others, or we may just like more bass (or TR) than others. According to what Mark is saying, the more we boost our bass, the more we may want to selectively bring down the upper bass frequencies in the LFE channel, especially if we are using ~80Hz crossovers for the regular channels. That way, we will be restoring some equilibrium between the lower bass frequencies and >80 Hz frequencies. But, it's strictly a YMMV issue. We may hear a positive difference with a lower LPF, and we may not.

I wrote this to go well beyond your original question, but I thought that a slightly more complete explanation of why most of us may boost our subwoofers to begin with might also be helpful in the context of discussing the LPF of LFE. Ultimately, I believe that there is really no right or wrong way to do any of this. To me, audio is an entertainment hobby, and whatever is most entertaining to a particular individual is perfectly legitimate, as far as I'm concerned. But, I think that understanding some of the reasons why we might wish to change certain settings in our audio systems enables us to engage in better-informed experimentation.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #42591 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
I'm trying my sub nearfield again to see how this impacts SPL levels and allowing the sub to work less hard. I took a graph with Audyssey on vs off, and can't figure out why Audyssey is choosing create a dip from about 23-31hz. It's flat in this area before audyssey, but then once engaged it drops off by about 6-7db in this area. I'm really confused here...
can you add a SVS cylinder sub since another 15v will not work? You need another sub because no matter where you place a single sub in that room Audy is eating up a lot of potential headroom trying to get a halfway decent response. Your best bet is to leave Audy off all together because you don't have enough sub to handle your settings on top of the EQ Audy applies. Or move up to a bigger sub that can handle more eq. It's going to have to be a V3601 if it's a PSA product.
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post #42592 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Yep, setting the LPF of LFE at 80hz you will be missing out on the 80-120hz area. (well not ALL because it's not a exact cutoff, it's rolled off gradually at wherever you set it). But not all content on the LFE (.1) channel may be a good thing above 80hz. In Mike's (mthomas47) post and the references he used said it way better than I could have HERE and Mark Seaton's as well.

As far as the content above 80hz being meaningful or not in the LFE channel, maybe some of it is and some isn't. Like Mike, I just find that it can sound a little muddier at 120hz and have a little more bloat/boomy sound to it. Too my ears, like his it seems, it's cleaner sounding set lower, especially if you like to run your subs hot (which I do and am up around 10-15db hot a lot of time like him - no DEQ). Lowering the LPF of LFE actually allows me to run my subs hotter while still staying clean sounding, giving more tactile and powerful feel/slam in the 90hz and under area. I tried to describe all this in a thread I started about it a year or so ago on this. I don't know how successful of a thread it was, but this setting made a real nice difference for me and a few others as well.

But as had been said, not everyone will feel the same about it and I'm sure a lot of variables will influence this: Room, Equipment (what sub(s) and AVR you have), your FR (whether you run a flat FR and how hot you run your subs (that FR) above your speakers, how strong of a rising house curve you may run), sub placements (because this can have an effect as well, even with the same looking FR), etc.

But yes, some receivers wont allow the LPF of LFE to be changed. In that case, your stuck with 120hz, which s not a bad thing necessarily. Your just stuck with that, like it or not.
Yes, I'm just stuck with not messing with LFE in my prepro but since I don't run subs hot and have smooth response then its probably not a big issue in my setup.

While I do understand the speaker/sub xover, I'm kinda lost in the LFE xover part. While I'm aware subs handle both LFE and speaker xover settings, in my thinking I'm assuming that .1 LFE content is explosions, bombs, etc and if the director added 110hz explosion in .1 LFE part....you are missing parts of it cause I don't think the speaker/sub xover handles that information. I may be wrong, but I'm just thinking logically here.

While Mark Seaton has said above 80hz in LFE is mostly noise....I don't see why director would have it that way or the reasoning for no noise instead? I don't know how LFE content gets mixed or anything, but I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing any LFE freq information by using smaller crossover regardless its not brick wall like the speaker/sub xover portion.
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post #42593 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 08:07 AM
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can you add a SVS cylinder sub since another 15v will not work? You need another sub because no matter where you place a single sub in that room Audy is eating up a lot of potential headroom trying to get a halfway decent response. Your best bet is to leave Audy off all together because you don't have enough sub to handle your settings on top of the EQ Audy applies. Or move up to a bigger sub that can handle more eq. It's going to have to be a V3601 if it's a PSA product.
I have a similar room problem as Butie. My room's got issues all over the place that a single sub just can't over come on its own. I need dual subs at minimum just to get =/- 4 dB across the range and that's with Audyssey engaged. So headroom is the key.

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post #42594 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 08:08 AM
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I cannot get asio4all to detect my sound card during setup for rew. I have a 1080ti has anyone come across this issue?
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post #42595 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 08:11 AM
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I cannot get asio4all to detect my sound card during setup for rew. I have a 1080ti has anyone come across this issue?
Yes... it's a pain. I unplugged and replugged in the mic and the HDMI cable in different orders and opened and closed REW over and over and was just about to give up and then suddenly it worked. I don't know which combination I used that worked but once I got it working all was good.
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post #42596 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 08:12 AM
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You need to verify both the second and first best locations with REW, hopefully they will be close enough that either spot will work well in your space and you can keep the GF happy, if not, threaten to buy another sub and I bet the first best spot will pass the GF test............. enjoy...........
The second sub is already in the plans, but the piggy bank is currently being filled for salk song 3's first
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post #42597 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 08:17 AM
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Yes... it's a pain. I unplugged and replugged in the mic and the HDMI cable in different orders and opened and closed REW over and over and was just about to give up and then suddenly it worked. I don't know which combination I used that worked but once I got it working all was good.
well this very scientific method worked by switching back a forth between the two hdmi outputs of my graphics card.
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post #42598 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I have a similar room problem as Butie. My room's got issues all over the place that a single sub just can't over come on its own. I need dual subs at minimum just to get =/- 4 dB across the range and that's with Audyssey engaged. So headroom is the key.
Same here...most rooms are this way. Most folks however never take the time to measure and reveal the hidden truth. It's a deep, dark rabbit hole!!
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post #42599 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 08:53 AM
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Yes, I'm just stuck with not messing with LFE in my prepro but since I don't run subs hot and have smooth response then its probably not a big issue in my setup.

While I do understand the speaker/sub xover, I'm kinda lost in the LFE xover part. While I'm aware subs handle both LFE and speaker xover settings, in my thinking I'm assuming that .1 LFE content is explosions, bombs, etc and if the director added 110hz explosion in .1 LFE part....you are missing parts of it cause I don't think the speaker/sub xover handles that information. I may be wrong, but I'm just thinking logically here.

While Mark Seaton has said above 80hz in LFE is mostly noise....I don't see why director would have it that way or the reasoning for no noise instead? I don't know how LFE content gets mixed or anything, but I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing any LFE freq information by using smaller crossover regardless its not brick wall like the speaker/sub xover portion.

Hi,

FWIW, I wouldn't worry about using a lower LPF setting. As you said, since you aren't running your subs hot, you probably aren't a good candidate to benefit from that anyway. Just to clarify, I misquoted Mark about saying that the LFE content above 80Hz was mostly noise. He made that point clear in his post. I went back to double-check the original quotes in the Audyssey FAQ and it was Roger who had said something like that at one time.

You are absolutely correct that a lower LPF setting will attenuate the volume of bass special effects over the point at which the filter operates. It won't eliminate them, it will just reduce their volume by 24db per octave. So, a setting of 80Hz would still play 100Hz content, but it would be 6db softer than the 80Hz content, and 120Hz content would be 12db softer than 80Hz content.

This is sort of like a house curve, where you are raising the lowest frequencies, proportional to the mid-bass frequencies, so that the resulting bass will blend better. Again, we don't hear low-bass frequencies at the same relative loudness that we do higher bass frequencies, so some people like to raise the low-bass, if room gain doesn't already do that sufficiently. Of course, to do that generally requires some sort of external DSP, like a miniDSP.

But, the issue of creating a house curve with the LPF of LFE is probably not an issue at all unless you are boosting all of your bass frequencies with a uniform subwoofer boost. As for whether you would be missing any bass content by using a lower LPF of LFE, you would just have to experiment to find out. And, to be clear, I'm not encouraging you to do that. Personally, based on what you have said, I would just leave the LPF set at 120Hz.

When I experiment with different LPF settings, I'm not aware of any missing content at all. That's probably partly due to the filter which just slopes-off the higher bass a little, and partly due to the harmonics of frequencies which I still hear. Even an explosion is a complex sound with many fundamentals and harmonics of frequencies involved. I just hear relatively more clarity in the bass, with a lower LPF setting. And, perhaps as Mark and others have suggested, I hear the lowest frequencies emphasized a little more. But, it's not a night-and-day difference, even with my substantial sub boost. It's a distinguishable difference to me, but I would characterize it as fairly subtle rather than dramatic.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 05-19-2018 at 09:02 AM.
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post #42600 of 54505 Old 05-19-2018, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If I may, just wanted to post this diagram. At first blush it looks like the ubiquitous bass management diagrams we've seen for years. But this one includes particular detail that is relevant to this discussion.



First, notice there's a lowpass filter in the LFE signal path. This is quite separate from the other LPF which is part of the crossover filters for the main channels.

The LFE LPF is the one Mark is talking about adjusting, and it has no affect on any of the bass redirected from the main channels. Please note that relatively few AV processors actually expose the LFE filter setting to the end user. For example neither of mine do so.
Thanks for posting this Roger. I'd say this is one of the most commonly confused aspects of bass management. Audio enthusiasts often mistake the LFE LPF setting for a "subwoofer crossover". In our conversations they will say "i have all speakers set to 80hz, the subwoofer crossover is at 80hz too and..." And I'll stop them and check at that point. "subwoofer crossover? Do you mean the knob on the subwoofer. And they always explain to me it is the LFE filter they are calling the subwoofer crossover.

Next would be the difference between LFE and LFE+Main

Coming in a close third would be the relevance between -20dBFS, -30dBFS, and what is required for reference level playback with actual source material. There's a *lot* of people who believe all you need for reference capabilities is 85dB for example---citing the -20dBFS example specifically. They have a 85dB sensitive speaker and will argue for days that all they need is 30-40 watts and they're reference capable...sigh.

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