Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1439 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #43141 of 53031 Old 06-15-2018, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
C'mon Man!... Ray you can do this! Bear, Mike and Bass all see the same thing (and I agree with them 100%)... The truth is staring you in the face. Shorten that entertainment center, lay the dual V3601's on their sides and put the 210's on top of them. It will be nothing short of incredible. And imagine this, because you will now have the equivalent of four V1801's running across the the front of your room the response may very well smooth out even more. The time has come... you were made for this!



P.S. If BH isn't talking you out of it then you KNOW it's a good move.


OMG! Lol. Seriously though I will need to talk to Tom in detail. I want to be certain that the upgrade is going to be worth based on my room, how I listen and what the compression graphs tell him how I am running by V1801s. The V3601 has 5db more across the board than the V1801 but the FR is shaped identical. So I want to be sure that I am going to notice a difference before I turn the room upside down and cough up for the upgrade. They just look so intimidating. I love it.


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post #43142 of 53031 Old 06-15-2018, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
OMG! Lol. Seriously though I will need to talk to Tom in detail. I want to be certain that the upgrade is going to be worth based on my room, how I listen and what the compression graphs tell him how I am running by V1801s. The V3601 has 5db more across the board than the V1801 but the FR is shaped identical. So I want to be sure that I am going to notice a difference before I turn the room upside down and cough up for the upgrade. They just look so intimidating. I love it.


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Would they fit laying on the ground in front of the entertainment center? See the pic.
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post #43143 of 53031 Old 06-15-2018, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Would they fit laying on the ground in front of the entertainment center? See the pic.

Not really fit. I mean look at how odd the V1801s look. They seem to stick out in the room. Just imagine how the V36 will look like. They would only be like 5 feet from me



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post #43144 of 53031 Old 06-15-2018, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
V36. The footprint is about the same but he height is getting me. See pic below. I am planing to chop off the shelf u see and move the subs up against front wall and the MTM 210s would sit on the subs. However due to the height of the V36 if our the 210s won’t they be too high? I won’t have any other place to put my left and right speakers. This may be the only thing that may keep me from jumping on them




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Can’t you just put your couch on a two foot riser


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post #43145 of 53031 Old 06-15-2018, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kelly.mcaloney View Post
Can’t you just put your couch on a two foot riser


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Actually the second row is on a riser. See pic




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post #43146 of 53031 Old 06-15-2018, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Not really fit. I mean look at how odd the V1801s look. They seem to stick out in the room. Just imagine how the V36 will look like. They would only be like 5 feet from me



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There's a 3-inch difference between them with the grills on. I say upgrade and lay them on their sides and you can always find another spot for them later down the road. 4 18's staring you right in the face during movie time, it doesn't get any better than that. Do you really need them? Not according to your graphs BUT you can finally put that"what if" feeling behind you. I do bet they would sound awesome in your room.
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post #43147 of 53031 Old 06-15-2018, 08:36 PM
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Nice room @imureh ! Totally lay the V36 on it's side. I have one and did it for a while. I now have MTMT210's sitting on top of my XV15SE's(I). Seems like a sealed room with no ambient light! Maybe a dark throw rug on that carpet....I did have a light carper, and now have a dark grey. Bet you have a nice dark room though. How about a shot of the screen with a movie showing? Here is a shot of mine. Maybe a little black velvet for the top of the MTM210's......
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post #43148 of 53031 Old 06-15-2018, 09:25 PM
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Hahaha @imureh ! Go ahead and get them buddy! I’ll even help you move them in. No excuses now. I charge 3 beers per sub, you’re not going to find a better moving deal than that. No cheap beer though!

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post #43149 of 53031 Old 06-15-2018, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Yeah i know but after trying our the Seaton submersives and then listening to the V1801s, I preferred the ported. I get decent room gain so I am getting usable output down to 10hz. See compression graphs. The other point is based on this compression graph I am not sure how much benefit I would see going to dual V36. It has to be substantial to justify the cost.




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Take a look at the distortion tabs corresponding to each sweep. That may give you the justification you are looking for.
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post #43150 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 03:02 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Lol, @imureh I remember when you said last year or so when someone suggested getting rid of the built in console to fit a pair of 210T how the wife would kill you. The things we do in pursuit of ridiculous output. It’s actually much better you stuck with the non tower so now you can fit the extra sub power up front.

As mentioned, check your distortion below 20Hz, as it rises rapidly below tuning. In a room that small though, you should have no audible distortion well above reference. My pair of V1801’s and DIY sub have me at and below 10% THD at 19Hz for reference level, and that’s in a 5.5Kft^3 room.



You should definitely lay a pair of V36 on their side and add a couple dB house curve.

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post #43151 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Well that might explain my problem... I just might be a basshead because I keep imagining what it would be like to add dual V1801's flanking my couch or better yet adding another set of dual V3601's... just because. I don't know why... I don't NEED any more bass.... Yet I can't seem to turn off that switch... I always want ONE more subwoofer.

I’m actually surprised you don’t have quad V36’s yet, I mean come on! I would definitely flank the couch with dual V18’s; I did for a year and it was amazing. Eight 18’s....do it! Might as well add another pair of Crowson’s while you’re at it.
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post #43152 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
I’m actually surprised you don’t have quad V36’s yet, I mean come on! I would definitely flank the couch with dual V18’s; I did for a year and it was amazing. Eight 18’s....do it! Might as well add another pair of Crowson’s while you’re at it.


Eight 18s... I believe you need a license from the US Geological Survey to run that setup so they never get confused about what is going on

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post #43153 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
I’m actually surprised you don’t have quad V36’s yet, I mean come on! I would definitely flank the couch with dual V18’s; I did for a year and it was amazing. Eight 18’s....do it! Might as well add another pair of Crowson’s while you’re at it.
I know right? Why I don't have eight 18's yet is beyond me. I'm slacker compared to some of these guys.

But on the bright side my Atmos speakers are now installed, the wiring is in and the walls are closed up. I just need to spend today and tomorrow doing a little sanding and painting and then I'll be ready to set the HT back up.
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post #43154 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
25x26x27" is actually correct. That was a typo by me. sorry. And those are the "rounded up" numbers so you'll be under the limit.

S3000i/S3010 is 124 pounds and 28x23x28 inch

S1500/11510 is 69 pounds and 22x23x24 inch

V1500/v1510 is 99 pounds and 28x22x30 inch

Tom Vodhanel
Thanks a lot Tom !!
So each of above (and also the S1811 @ 93 pounds and 25x26x27 inch) shipped box can fit within the FedEx IE girth limitation.
I have a not so big room (W 13.1 ft x D 14.7 ft x H 9.8 ft ), but from the options I am almost decided on the PSA 15" Vented Subwoofer (V1510), for the slam and tactile feel provided by the ported design.

Could you please also help me to confirm the details for the shipped box of:
PSA 18" Vented Subwoofer (V1811)
Shipment dimensions: ?" x ?" x ?"
Shipment weight: ? lbs

This is to confirm what is the biggest vented/ported subwoofer that can fit on FedEx IE shipping box girth limitation, purchase the ones that fits, then save up for a 2nd later this year for a dual setup.
V1510 or V1811 : )

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post #43155 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Take a look at the distortion tabs corresponding to each sweep. That may give you the justification you are looking for.
Here is the screen shot from the distortion tab Marc. TBH don't know what its telling me so need some help. I still have not been able to prove to myself what the V1801 are not giving me in my room and listening habits that the V3601 upgrade will and justify the additional cost. I hope I am looking at this correctly.

@Sekosche

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post #43156 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Here is the screen shot from the distortion tab Marc. TBH don't know what its telling me so need some help. I still have not been able to prove to myself what the V1801 are not giving me in my room and listening habits that the V3601 upgrade will and justify the additional cost. I hope I am looking at this correctly.

@Sekosche

While 115dB is the theoretical max output for the LFE, I wouldn't worry about distortion on the 115dB sweep. Look at the 95dB - 105dB sweeps to give you an idea where distortion starts to become objectionable.

This should help you determine whether or not you are satisfied or want more headroom. More headroom will lower distortion. You can move the cursor in REW to view granular distortion results at specific frequencies.

Generally, the 2nd-harmonic is not objectionable and enhances the bass for many. Focus more on the 3rd-order distortion.

Here are some helpful links:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...rformance.html
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/he...istortion.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_harmonic_distortion
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post #43157 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haiej View Post
Thanks a lot Tom !!
So each of above (and also the S1811 @ 93 pounds and 25x26x27 inch) shipped box can fit within the FedEx IE girth limitation.
I have a not so big room (W 13.1 ft x D 14.7 ft x H 9.8 ft ), but from the options I am almost decided on the PSA 15" Vented Subwoofer (V1510), for the slam and tactile feel provided by the ported design.

Could you please also help me to confirm the details for the shipped box of:
PSA 18" Vented Subwoofer (V1811)
Shipment dimensions: ?" x ?" x ?"
Shipment weight: ? lbs

This is to confirm what is the biggest vented/ported subwoofer that can fit on FedEx IE shipping box girth limitation, purchase the ones that fits, then save up for a 2nd later this year for a dual setup.
V1510 or V1811 : )
V1811 is 23.5x25.5x30. But fedex will round that up to 24x26x30.. Weight is 121 pounds.

All subwoofers and speakers are within the fedex size(and weight limits) except the S3611, the V3611, and the S7201.


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post #43158 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

You have gotten a nice variety of choices. I may be missing something, but I don't see going from four S3600i's to four S3611's as a really significant upgrade. It will be a nice incremental upgrade, but you sound like someone who is looking for more than that. Ported subs are always nice in larger rooms, on concrete (although you already have Crowson's to help with the tactile ULF) so four V3611's could be a nice choice in a basement. But, it doesn't sound as if you are keen on moving to ported subs.

My own preference, if I wanted to stay with sealed subs, would be the dual S7201's. There are two reasons for that choice. First, based on things that some other people, such as Jeffrey have said, I think that a single S7201 may be more powerful than dual S3611's. I think that it might be especially noticeable with low-frequencies. I always believe in buying the biggest subs that someone thinks he may ever want, so there is that.

Second, again assuming that you want to stay with sealed subs, buying dual S7201's preserves the option to add another, or even another pair, at some point in the future, if you ever decide to do it. If you go with four S3611's, your next upgrade would mean replacing all four subs again. So, I would try the dual S7201's, believing that I would already be getting a substantial upgrade, and knowing that I could double their output and mid-bass tactile response if I ever needed to.

Regards,
Mike


Thanks guys for all the input. I ended ordering 4 S3611's Should be picking them up in about a month
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post #43159 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 02:44 PM
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@imureh
The CEA-2010 thresholds for distortion are too high in many's opinion (including mine). This chart is from the REW documentation. https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/siggen.html

IMO, the REW Signal Generator CEA-2010 burst tone is a great tool for all to use. It is much safer than a constant sine wave, so no worries about cooking voice coils. If something sounds terribly bad, it can be stopped after just one cycle. I doubt it could damage subwoofer with a limiter, even if one tried (don't try). You don't even need a mic to use this tool. It is great for chasing down sympathetic vibrations.

Noise detected this way can seem inaudible during most movie scenes. However, it is there and can muddy up the audio. Reducing noise will increase dynamic range and improve your listening experience. It is your room's S/N ratio. The lower the noise floor, the less volume you'll need to enjoy content to its fullest. The lowered demand on your system also will lower distortion, especially the bass.

With a microphone, you can use the CEA-2010 burst tones and the RTA to evaluate distortion at specific frequencies. It also a good way to determine your own threshold for detecting distortion.

I recommend starting at 63Hz. At low volume levels THD should be below 1%. As you increase the tone will get louder. As the subwoofer begins to approach max output and distortion rises you should detect the tone itself has changing. You will be hearing the effects of the extra harmonics. You may hear other signs of the sub struggling (driver & port noise). This is where it is time to stop increasing the level.

I hope this all made sense.
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post #43160 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 02:51 PM
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@imureh I forgot to ask if you have any room in the back of the room for a 3rd sub? Nearfield, directly behind the MLP?

Personally, I would stick with the V1801s [or move to S3601s] (if the shelving must stay). V36X1s horizontal with the ports along the walls would be the ultimate. Do that, then build shelves!
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post #43161 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@imureh
The CEA-2010 thresholds for distortion are too high in many's opinion (including mine). This chart is from the REW documentation. https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/siggen.html

IMO, the REW Signal Generator CEA-2010 burst tone is a great tool for all to use. It is much safer than a constant sine wave, so no worries about cooking voice coils. If something sounds terribly bad, it can be stopped after just one cycle. I doubt it could damage subwoofer with a limiter, even if one tried (don't try). You don't even need a mic to use this tool. It is great for chasing down sympathetic vibrations.

Noise detected this way can seem inaudible during most movie scenes. However, it is there and can muddy up the audio. Reducing noise will increase dynamic range and improve your listening experience. It is your room's S/N ratio. The lower the noise floor, the less volume you'll need to enjoy content to its fullest. The lowered demand on your system also will lower distortion, especially the bass.

With a microphone, you can use the CEA-2010 burst tones and the RTA to evaluate distortion at specific frequencies. It also a good way to determine your own threshold for detecting distortion.

I recommend starting at 63Hz. At low volume levels THD should be below 1%. As you increase the tone will get louder. As the subwoofer begins to approach max output and distortion rises you should detect the tone itself has changing. You will be hearing the effects of the extra harmonics. You may hear other signs of the sub struggling (driver & port noise). This is where it is time to stop increasing the level.

I hope this all made sense.


Thanks Marc. A little beyond me as this is first time i am looking at distortion. When looking at my graph I posted the 3rd harmonic distortion is about 31% between 95-105db which is about 10% higher than second harmonic. Does that tell me anything. Jumping to the V3601 requires more dramatic changes to my room which adds to the cost as well so I am trying to make sure it’s a substantial improvement.


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post #43162 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 03:01 PM
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Thanks Marc. A little beyond me as this is first time i am looking at distortion. When looking at my graph I posted the 3rd harmonic distortion is about 31% between 95-105db which is about 10% higher than second harmonic. Does that tell me anything. Jumping to the V3601 requires more dramatic changes to my room which adds to the cost as well so I am trying to make sure it’s a substantial improvement.


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That is way too much 3rd-order distortion IMO.

Read what I posted about using the CEA-2010 burst to evaluate the effects of the distortion as levels increase.

Edit: A good guideline is that you never want 3rd-order distortion to be greator than 2nd. I personally like to see each component/order stay under 10%, but achieving very low THD can be costly and takes up space.

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post #43163 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 03:05 PM
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@imureh I forgot to ask if you have any room in the back of the room for a 3rd sub? Nearfield, directly behind the MLP?

Personally, I would stick with the V1801s [or move to S3601s] (if the shelving must stay). V36X1s horizontal with the ports along the walls would be the ultimate. Do that, then build shelves!
Marc, the MLP is the first row and no space between the first and second row to even add a MBM due to riser and reclining of the chairs. The V3601 would be the only option I would look at if its results in a substantial improvement. For now I could lay them in front of the shelf which would be horrible as they would stick out even more in the room, then I could either chop off shelf and stand them upright in corners and lay the left and right channels horizontally after rotating the tweeter, or remove the shelf entirely then build shelf to seat the front channels and the equipment. Quite disruptive option and adds to cost.

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post #43164 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 03:07 PM
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That is way too much 3rd-order distortion IMO.

Read what I posted about using the CEA-2010 burst to evaluate the effects of the distortion as levels increase.
Marc, here is the link to the mdat if you want to see whether I am looking at this correctly. Hope it works

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AsOYtvUjAgburykqbNZ87vS_Bn-d

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post #43165 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 04:29 PM
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Thanks guys for all the input. I ended ordering 4 S3611's Should be picking them up in about a month
So net result, you will gain a couple dB headroom at low frequencies, below 30/40Hz or so, and lose a couple above that? How much will the side grade cost?
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post #43166 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 04:51 PM
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Marc, here is the link to the mdat if you want to see whether I am looking at this correctly. Hope it works

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AsOYtvUjAgburykqbNZ87vS_Bn-d
Good news. You have all the headroom you need. I don't see any reason to upgrade.

The distortion is centered at 60Hz and probably contributes to what you love most. Midbass TR.

Fundamental (60Hz), 2nd-order, 3rd-order
100dB, 12%, 3%
105dB, 20%, 4%
110dB, 32%, 5%
115dB, 43%, 9%
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post #43167 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 05:12 PM
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Good news. You have all the headroom you need. I don't see any reason to upgrade.



The distortion is centered at 60Hz and probably contributes to what you love most. Midbass TR.



Fundamental (60Hz), 2nd-order, 3rd-order

100dB, 12%, 3%

105dB, 20%, 4%

110dB, 32%, 5%

115dB, 43%, 9%


Thanks for taking the time Marc. I was looking for a legitimate reason to upgrade (honest) but it has to be substantial and legitimate

Edit: By the way how are you getting those numbers? I see much higher number when I click on specific db level

Edit: I see it, I was looking at 2nd and 3rd harmonic numbers, not fundamental. Kinda confused. Still not seeing those numbers though


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So net result, you will gain a couple dB headroom at low frequencies, below 30/40Hz or so, and lose a couple above that? How much will the side grade cost?



Tom is giving me a heck of a deal on the trade ins. so its not much at all to upgrade to 4 S3611's financially, but I will be getting the 01 drivers, more powerful amp, XLR inputs, another 5 year warranty and most important to me is the 12 volt triggers. I am running 12db hot on the subs and they still turn off all the time during low or no bass movies and it drives me nuts
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Tom is giving me a heck of a deal on the trade ins. so its not much at all to upgrade to 4 S3611's financially, but I will be getting the 01 drivers, more powerful amp, XLR inputs, another 5 year warranty and most important to me is the 12 volt triggers. I am running 12db hot on the subs and they still turn off all the time during low or no bass movies and it drives me nuts
If you got a good deal sounds like a win. You probably have way more headroom than you could ever use above 40 Hz either way, so picking up 2 or 3 dB down low would be nice. Do you have any way to manually eq the low end for a house curve? If you don't, I'd look into it with the firepower/investment you have. Mini dsp 2x4 HD maybe? What's your room size? If you are getting good room gain below 20 Hz you could potentially have above reference output capability down to 10 Hz
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post #43170 of 53031 Old 06-16-2018, 05:38 PM
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If you got a good deal sounds like a win. You probably have way more headroom than you could ever use above 40 Hz either way, so picking up 2 or 3 dB down low would be nice. Do you have any way to manually eq the low end for a house curve? If you don't, I'd look into it with the firepower/investment you have. Mini dsp 2x4 HD maybe? What's your room size? If you are getting good room gain below 20 Hz you could potentially have above reference output capability down to 10 Hz

I might get a minidsp, I had a company do a audyssey pro calibration on the s3600i's and added a house curve, but something in my room or audyssey is causing a drop below 20hz so thinking of getting a minidsp to help with that
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