Here you go

Before:



After: (of course the trim needs to be finished)




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@imureh dude that sucks! It looks so much better with them flush against the wall tho. You gotta recalibrate them using REW. I've moved so many things around and have had to do this over and over with REW and it always gets fixed. It's a trip how the smallest adjustments whether it's distance or Sub amp settings can change the FR. You're gonna have to experiment with the delay and room size till it goes back to normal. Normally running same dual subs at equidistant wouldn't need delay adjustment but I think that might be why it sounds worse. First time I setup my duals (i know it's different cuz they're not matching) it sounded better with just one than with 2...until I dialed them in.

Keep us posted if you do re-dial them in if it helps or if the best spot for them in your room really is where they were at before.

Yeah man i was hoping it would sound better. I did play around with the sub distance but that did not much for the FR. One thing I will try is to set them again and two subs rather than one and see how it sounds. The point for me is that if they need to be where they were then might as well get the shelf back.


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I've found that lowering my room size on my v1801 actually helped create a way better FR. Looks like you're going to have to experiment.

As for your sub progression, it's awesome that you're starting to see things more clear and are finding out what's more important to you. I think we all (at least I do) would like that revelation before we go sub shopping. Sounds like maybe Rythmik might be something that would fit your style a lil more, but idk I'm still learning.

Something I would recommend playing with is the crossover for the lfe channel, if your receiver supports it. Default is i believe 120Hz but I have a much more seamless experience with that set to 80Hz. No localization from my vnf subs behind the mlp. Now there is the argument that you then "lose out on frequencies above 80Hz that have been placed in the lfe channel, but when you listen to say Transformers 1 with lfe set to 80hz versus 120hz i find it sounds far more natural not to have Optimus' voice coming out of the subs for example.

@imureh maybe just pull them a touch forward and it will possibly sound better and you'll still have the cool "flush" look.

Yeah I tried that. I think the subs may be getting too much boundary gain being in corner. It just made the other speakers sound awful too. It’s amazing what one thinks should sound better and what actually does.


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Sorry to hear that Ray. What's weird to me is that everything got worse. I could see losing some TR due to moving the subs farther away and perhaps some clarity due to the possible boomy effect that can happen with corner loading but on the other hand I would think there would be more output due to the corner loading.

To be honest, since you did all that work I would spend some serious time trying to get it all blended before putting everything back. I would try messing with the Room size control, the crossovers and the delays (post Audyssey) to see if you can't dial it in a bit better. IMO it shouldn't have fallen apart as bad as it did with that modification. But every room behaves differently so perhaps it did.

I will try some things today. I recently watched Rampage and hurricane heist under the old set up and man those things pounded. That bass sharp and tight. Now it seems dull and loose. Will play more. I gave the other piece to someone to make two tables out of it so have called them to pause. Lol. I also have dual PB13s coming in mid aug and potentially FV18s for some fun comparison. So I need to get this sorted before then.


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Ray, it may be helpful if you lay out the details of what you tried after moving the subs. Did you reset everything back to square 1, level match, then work on phase and distance etc? I’m sure collectively we should be able to figure out the cause of the sound degradation and if you’re able to run sweeps in REW and post them that will help too. I can understand the frustration of spending time and/or money only to set yourself backwards, not fun. FWIW if we can figure out how to get things back in balance it’s going to look super clean when it’s all finished up!

Sure my friend. I will post the FR which is not a lot worse than before. Yes I did start from scratch on the calibration and then level matching. Then post Audyssey tried the sub distance tweak. I still ran them as one sub. Audyssey did increase the distance by 1ft. I can try and run them as separate as well to see how it looks. As I noted above, it could be the additional boundary gain that is clouding things. I even reduced the room size from 2 to noon. My kidos were saying they were missing the back massage too


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@imureh thinking about it a lil more I think what could have happened is that you got used to the TR from them being closer to you so now that they're further away you're missing that punch.

When I setup my duals in the living room and dialed everything in the best I could, I was so happy with the results at my MLP that I called my 13 yr old son to sit in my spot and check out our demo/testing scene from The Incredible Hulk. He sat there and laughed, I was thinking he must've liked it alot....i was very wrong lol. He was laughing at me and said he felt sorry for me cuz my mlp sucks! I was so happy n excited cuz to me it was the best my spot has sounded yet. The reason he didn't like it and described he didn't feel much there is because he got used to sitting 2 ft from the v1801 so he got used to that vnf couch rattling. We switched spots and I sat in his and realized that yeah compared to my spot he had the sweet spot. Anyways, so yeah I think you might be missing that punch from them being closer, jmo.

@Gust geo it’s very possible. I will play some more today but if the old location is how everything sounds best then that is what it is. It’s dedicated media room so looks don’t matter as much as the sound does.


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Another possible thing I would consider trying would be turning the subs around with drivers facing the wall. Would look kind of funny with amp plates exposed but could perhaps help with fr and overall sound.
You never know

I like the new orientation, but you said you don’t care for how it sounds now right? Maybe your ears will adapt to the new placement.

Hi Ray,

I like the greater flexibility that removing the shelf gives you, but I get the impression that you are approaching this on an all or nothing basis. Either the subwoofers are pulled-out all the way in front of the shelf (old arrangement) or they are pushed all the way back into the corner (new arrangement). I think that you actually have some flexibility now to try multiple arrangements, including having the subs pulled out 6" more from the corners, or a foot more, etc.

I would also just concentrate on getting the bass right for a while. You can always experiment with pulling the speakers forward more or pushing them back further on the surface of the subwoofers. This may not make any difference at all, but when you do get ready to experiment with the speakers, I would probably put something between the subs and the speakers, both to protect the finish and to raise them up a little more. The height of the speakers changed a little, and who knows whether that may have affected the way you hear some frequencies?

You actually may have changed more variables here than you realized when you were doing this. I still think that having more placement options is a good thing, but now you just need to take your time to go back through the variables, one-at-a-time, to find out the placements of subwoofers, and then of speakers, which works best for you.

Regards,
Mike

@mthomas47 one thing I did not mention is that the shelf you see in the pic is the larger side which will go out of the room and the smaller side back in once finished up so I would have more flexibility on the sides as well. I’ll do some more playing around when I get some time today and tomorrow.


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Thinking of pulling the shelf out entirely and finding a location for subs before Audyssey with the best response. What do you all think? The large shelf would come out anyways. Only the small side would remain.


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1:21:41 into in “A Quiet Place” starts about a 15 sec onslaught of roughly 20hz bass. I was listening to different scenes from the movie at reference and that’s the one timestamp I felt like my couch was lifting up with the V1801 firing inches into my back behind the couch. Unfortunately I can measure visually how hard the bass hits because my drywall that my TV is mounted on flexes and my TV shutters . I was clipping my Umik set at -18 (default) from 12 ft from v3601 and maybe a foot from my v1801 where my MLP is. Sexy bass and I can’t say that I’ve ever seen that much air pouring out of the ports in a constant stream... seems “chucky-ish” The footsteps prior to that part, are the only part of the movie where I can audibly hear my v3601 breathe. Also on that scene, where my head leans over the back of my couch, I could feel the air from the VA 1801 rushing up between the sub and the couch... I felt like someone turned on a fan from the floor.

1:18:43 to 1:19:12 (footsteps scene) has some super low (18ish hz) content that will test any ported sub unless it’s some 10-12hz tuned monster

It’s fun to have the house to yourself and have a fridge full of beer and subs that pound. My neighbors MAY disagree!!!!

Dave

Don't have near the firepower most you guys got, two hsu vtf2 and outlaw x12, but that movie still made my wife think the room was going to come apart. Lol. Scared the crap out of her. Loved it

Yes, that's the one. No, I'm not using the rest of those speakers.

You could then attempt 1/4 spacing along the front walls, so I say try it.

Yeah. I forgot that then I have an issue for my left and right Speakers as they would then block the screen. Then I may be looking to spend money to get stands or towers. Not worth spending money on that as it sounded very good with shelf. Just did not look good. Will play more as they sit right now and then see. If I have to bring the shelf back to make things sound like they were then I am fine with that. But before I give in I will try and make it sound as best as I can with the current set up.


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Maybe use your v1801 boxes as temp stands for left and right? And then if it does work out concrete blocks are pretty cheap and sturdy.

Here is the old and new FR as best I could get it. These are subs only post Audyssey. The subs are presented to Audyssey as one as done previously. This is the only other thing I could do additionally is to show them as separate subs to Audyssey and see how they look and sound. The sound was better today for sure.




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That’s a pretty good graph honestly


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Room for 2 more V1801s or trade up to 2 x V3601 on their side?

Nah mate. I have plenty of output and headroom. This change was for looks and not sound. So if I cannot get it to sound like it did before we will go back to how it was. I may try the quarter wall in front option as well before deciding what is best.


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Ray, sorry for the slow response. Had a birthday party at our home for our three year old today and just getting settled after the madness.

I think Mike made very good points above, there were a number of changes all happening at once and it may be difficult to isolate the problems quickly.

Looking at your pictures and the graph you posted I agree it looks pretty close other than a more pronounced dip between 60 and 70 but with how narrow it is I’m not sure it is making that much difference. It would be interesting to see the before and after waterfalls as well but not sure if you have them available.

One thing that does stick out to me is the placement of your left and right before and after. The original placement with the subs extended in front of the bottom of the speaker baffles would have been creating a good bit of additional reflection off the top of the subs that you largely take away with the new placement. Usually that reflection is more detrimental to the sound but in your case it seems like it was working well. One thing you could try there is moving the subs out a bit but putting your L/R to the back of the sub cabinets and see if that makes a difference. It could help bring back a bit of the impact/TR with the subs a bit closer as well.

Did you save the original Audessey settings from before the reshuffle? If so did you try shifting back to them? Just wondering if something in the new filters is off that wasn’t before, if so perhaps it could be an easy fix.

At any rate, hope you’re able to get it sorted quickly.

Jeremy


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Been off the forum for a while now but had to pop in to share this.

Last night I was at someones house and they were insisting on watching Ready Player One. OK fine,but would rather wait till at home to watch on my system instead of a soundbar and ahem, a tiny box called a "subwoofer".

It was streaming from Xfinity and I saw that they were paying $21.99 to buy it as it wasnt available to rent yet. REALLY ???????, You cant wait for it to be able to rent

Granted they dont buy all the time but I was told, hey its cheaper than going to the movies and renting can be as high as $10.99 for streaming a new release. again.... REALLY????

Movie was good and looked good on a 65" plasma, but my inner voice cried out for my system in many instances.

Doing the math
$21.99 to stream purchase because you cant wait. $2.00 if you rent from Redbox in a few weeks as is how I rent.

At one movie a week, my cost savings is $1,038.48 per year or $519.48 if renting new release and its on a sound system that puts RPX and IMAX to shame. Multiply savings over the winter when we watch more than one a week from Redbox.


Maybe this hobby isnt so expensive after all and maybe we arnt the crazy ones with what we pay for sound equipment.