Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1458 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #43711 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 08:36 AM
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Hi all,

I struck internet gold a couple days ago looking for some obscure data sets from the old timer days of audio(mid 1990s). I ended up finding a website that I never heard of that has THOUSANDS of old magazines scanned with free access. Stereo Review and Audio are there along with dozens of other titles relating to electronics in some fashion. Some dating back to the early 1900s.

https://www.americanradiohistory.com...EE-1916-01.pdf

Here is an example of audio from the 1990s. Look at the ads too. Laser Disc, HI FI VCRs, the older hsu ad, cable tv descramblers.

https://www.americanradiohistory.com...io-1996-06.pdf

And , of course, the real reason to look thru it. Tom Nousaine doing his thing on subwoofers and Don Keele with his typical exemplary review of a loud speaker.

here's one with a very informative review of the "state of the art servo 15" of its day.

https://www.americanradiohistory.com...io-1998-04.pdf

More Nousaine doing the DIY subwoofer thing before most of the DIYers now days even knew what a subwoofer was.. And Don Keele reviewing the BagEnd 18---which indirectly led to SVS's birth along with PSA.


https://www.americanradiohistory.com...io-1999-01.pdf

Here's the homepage.

https://www.americanradiohistory.com/



Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

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post #43712 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I am am glad you enjoy your system - that is the end goal. Would you mind sharing what other receiver brands and room correction systems you have owned and calibrated on your system?
The first time I used Audyssey was a Denon, plain old first gen. Then, an Onkyo with XT, than an Onkyo with XT32, then two Denon's in a row with XT32. My first calibration system was a very early version of YPAO that was very underwhelming, as was the Yamaha receiver behind it, but that was so long ago it is not relevant to modern equipment.
It sounds great. I have no interest(as you no longer do) in going down the REW fiddle fiddle fiddle route. I have fired up REW a very few times, and have no confidence that I used it correctly. It shows a reasonable response curve raising a little in the bass(probably why I like it) with a couple of dips/nulls at 50 Hz and 90 Hz, which I may or may not try to address at some point, since it sounds good to me. I don't process above 500 kHz using the Audyssey app.
What I do know is even with the basic Audyssey decades ago, it was the best experience I had to that point, to what I have now which is even better. All main stream consumer gear, at least until recently.
I have almost zero interest in comparing what I have to anything else(MCACC, ARC,YPAO, Dirac), ignorance is bliss and a whole hell of a lot cheaper. I have no interest in analyzing the hell out of my system and possibly finding what I think sounds good is crap. I will follow developments on Dirac Unison with interest, but will not touch it until it's been around and proven for a few years so my wallet is safe for the time being.
I do not in any way deny other people's underwhelming experience with Audyssey, just saying it's worked to my satisfaction. Audyssey itself, and the new app, seem to be a bit of a crap shoot, and I've been mostly lucky with both. My only fail has been trying to use the app to raise the dip at 50 Hz, got me nowhere.
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post #43713 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
The first time I used Audyssey was a Denon, plain old first gen. Then, an Onkyo with XT, than an Onkyo with XT32, then two Denon's in a row with XT32. My first calibration system was a very early version of YPAO that was very underwhelming, as was the Yamaha receiver behind it, but that was so long ago it is not relevant to modern equipment.

It sounds great. I have no interest(as you no longer do) in going down the REW fiddle fiddle fiddle route. I have fired up REW a very few times, and have no confidence that I used it correctly. It shows a reasonable response curve raising a little in the bass(probably why I like it) with a couple of dips/nulls at 50 Hz and 90 Hz, which I may or may not try to address at some point, since it sounds good to me. I don't process above 500 kHz using the Audyssey app.

What I do know is even with the basic Audyssey decades ago, it was the best experience I had to that point, to what I have now which is even better. All main stream consumer gear, at least until recently.

I have almost zero interest in comparing what I have to anything else(MCACC, ARC,YPAO, Dirac), ignorance is bliss and a whole hell of a lot cheaper. I have no interest in analyzing the hell out of my system and possibly finding what I think sounds good is crap. I will follow developments on Dirac Unison with interest, but will not touch it until it's been around and proven for a few years so my wallet is safe for the time being.

I do not in any way deny other people's underwhelming experience with Audyssey, just saying it's worked to my satisfaction. Audyssey itself, and the new app, seem to be a bit of a crap shoot, and I've been mostly lucky with both. My only fail has been trying to use the app to raise the dip at 50 Hz, got me nowhere.


All good points, but how do you know that you would not like accueq if you have never heard it’s results? All it takes is to get one and compare and return if you do not like it. I think that is point Hopinater and others including myself are saying. We like what we hear but since we have not heard anything else or much of how do I know that accueq would not be more appealing to me till I experience it? It was eye opening for molon as well.


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post #43714 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
All good points, but how do you know that you would not like accueq if you have never heard it’s results? All it takes is to get one and compare and return if you do not like it. I think that is point Hopinater and others including myself are saying. We like what we hear but since we have not heard anything else or much of how do I know that accueq would not be more appealing to me till I experience it? It was eye opening for molon as well.


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I just want everyone to know my intent wasn't to bash Audyssey or anyone's system. Hop tagged me in the thread, so I was just sharing my experiences. If you happen to get AccuEQ and hate it, please don't reach for the tar and feathers. All this is my subjective opinion and well all know about opinions. It would probably be best to continue this via PM if you have questions or in the Onkyo threads. I am sure people who come here to read about the awesome PSA low freq thumperage are tired of hearing about room correction. Sorry for the derail.
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post #43715 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I just want everyone to know my intent wasn't to bash Audyssey or anyone's system. Hop tagged me in the thread, so I was just sharing my experiences. If you happen to get AccuEQ and hate it, please don't reach for the tar and feathers. All this is my subjective opinion and well all know about opinions. It would probably be best to continue this via PM if you have questions or in the Onkyo threads. I am sure people who come here to read about the awesome PSA low freq thumperage are tired of hearing about room correction. Sorry for the derail.


I think all of us are appreciative of you sharing your experience. I know what you mean about someone not liking Accueq but coming from someone who has compared different RC systems does mean something (at least to me). Thanks again for sharing.

Btw, Any interest in coming to the Houston GTG on 9/29?


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post #43716 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:25 AM
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I think I'm one of the very few that don't use room correction and I prefer it that way. I'd rather look for the best AVR or prepro with best sound quality vs looking for what type of room correction it uses.

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post #43717 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
All good points, but how do you know that you would not like accueq if you have never heard it’s results? All it takes is to get one and compare and return if you do not like it. I think that is point Hopinater and others including myself are saying. We like what we hear but since we have not heard anything else or much of how do I know that accueq would not be more appealing to me till I experience it? It was eye opening for molon as well.


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I'm speaking for me. If people have the interest to explore new frontiers, have at it. I just wanted to point out Audyssey works for some people. Also, I'm not saying I won't like AccuEQ, I'm saying I don't want to know. I've spent, for my income level, a **** ton of money the last two years on my system, and that is pretty much done for now. I'm going to finish setting up what I have this summer, and just enjoy it for a while.
Plus, like many other people, Onkyo leaves a bad taste in my mouth because of HDMI issues. My first Onkyo was replaced because it wasn't working anymore, not upgraditis.
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post #43718 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
I'm speaking for me. If people have the interest to explore new frontiers, have at it. I just wanted to point out Audyssey works for some people. Also, I'm not saying I won't like AccuEQ, I'm saying I don't want to know. I've spent, for my income level, a **** ton of money the last two years on my system, and that is pretty much done for now. I'm going to finish setting up what I have this summer, and just enjoy it for a while.

Plus, like many other people, Onkyo leaves a bad taste in my mouth because of HDMI issues. My first Onkyo was replaced because it wasn't working anymore, not upgraditis.


I understand completely. Seems like Onkyo has made some big strides recently. Plus I don’t think their AVRs are priced bad either. Anyway always good to have options. I for one am willing to try and see


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post #43719 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:36 AM
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V1811


hey guys some questions,


1. after I turned the X box off and there was no sound I was hearing a buzz/static noise from the sub is this normal? or that mean the gain is to high.
2. If you have it in auto does it go to sleep after xx amount of time and what would be the time it takes to go to sleep?
3. What is preferred to have it on auto or off and on every time you use the system.
4. is it perfectly fine to calibrate it for now in Manual Audyssey lowering the db of the speaker and raising the db of the sub?


Thanks.
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post #43720 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:39 AM
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V1811


hey guys some questions,


1. after I turned the X box off and there was no sound I was hearing a buzz/static noise from the sub is this normal? or that mean the gain is to high.
2. If you have it in auto does it go to sleep after xx amount of time and what would be the time it takes to go to sleep?
3. What is preferred to have it on auto or off and on every time you use the system.
4. is it perfectly fine to calibrate it for now in Manual Audyssey lowering the db of the speaker and raising the db of the sub?


Thanks.


Are you using XLR or RCA? Seems like a ground loop issue. Talk to Tom about it and he may send you something to fix it. I leave mine on auto. They turn off after 15min. There is no right or wrong way with Audyssey but why would you want to do it manually?


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post #43721 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Are you using XLR or RCA? Seems like a ground loop issue. Talk to Tom about it and he may send you something to fix it. I leave mine on auto. They turn off after 15min. There is no right or wrong way with Audyssey but why would you want to do it manually?


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I am using the small 1 pin connector if I remember that one is RCA.
I would leave it on auto then. unless the buzz is present I don't remember if after I turned the AVR the buzz when away but I turned the sub off.
I had the gain just past the middle.


I was running it manually as everything is out of place specially the sub is sitting about 3ft in front of me almost in the middle of the room.


I just want to feel the rumble slam when the T rex take a step on Jurassic park 1. But the overall sound was to loud, and I did a manual db adjustment the mains -3db if I remember the sub +2db.
can I go higher on the sub?


I just don't want to damage the sub or the AVR messing with the db.


Thanks.
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post #43722 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cloudbuster View Post
I am using the small 1 pin connector if I remember that one is RCA.
I would leave it on auto then. unless the buzz is present I don't remember if after I turned the AVR the buzz when away but I turned the sub off.
I had the gain just past the middle.


I was running it manually as everything is out of place specially the sub is sitting about 3ft in front of me almost in the middle of the room.


I just want to feel the rumble slam when the T rex take a step on Jurassic park 1. But the overall sound was to loud, and I did a manual db adjustment the mains -3db if I remember the sub +2db.
can I go higher on the sub?


I just don't want to damage the sub or the AVR messing with the db.


Thanks.


On the hum, talk to Tom, very hard to damage sub through playing normal content. Keep AVR trims about -5 to -6 for sub and then raise gain on sub to your liking


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post #43723 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 10:02 AM
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ive had my Onkyo NR646 for a little over 3.5 years now with very little issues , besides the odd lack of bass for a few days after screwing with new subs. I always thought of AccuEQ as inferior to Audysey , partially because I didnt know any better and it seemed everyone was using Audy so it MUST be better! Im sure AccuEQ has gotten better these past few years as I see the new versions , and I figured I would roll right on with Onkyo when it came time to get a new AVR mainly because AccuEQ is pretty easy to use! I have seen the Audy rabbithole typed across these boards and it doesnt interest me in getting that involved! I dont think AccuEQ has settings for independent subs though? I thought I remember someone saying the 2 subs out are basically an internal Y-splitter?
Either way , the 3 S3601's sound great! Another setting is Phase Matching Bass on the Onkyos. I have pretty much decided to leave it on as it provides a lot more impact with the S36's. Unless its a super bass heavy movie , I will turn it off. There have been a few movies that just seem to want to crumble the house and I cannot lower the levels enough on the Bass and Sub , -12 is the max and it still wasnt enough. I turn it off and a pretty good balance returns and I will bump the levels back up to -6 or so....
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post #43724 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 10:24 AM
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On the hum, talk to Tom, very hard to damage sub through playing normal content. Keep AVR trims about -5 to -6 for sub and then raise gain on sub to your liking


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I will talk to Tom,

I think I have my volume setting different.
When you say -5 to -6 is that louder than the main front speakers?

My setting right now - is lower volume + is louder volume.
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post #43725 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 10:26 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudbuster View Post
I will talk to Tom,



I think I have my volume setting different.

When you say -5 to -6 is that louder than the main front speakers?



My setting right now - is lower volume + is louder volume.


I would at least start with level matching the speakers and subs with a SPL meter. From there you can adjust the sub trim as I mentioned. You at least need to start from the same SPL for the speakers and subs. You use the internal AVR test tones to do so, raise the AVR MV to 0 (assume you are using a Denon?) and then level match to 75 dB.


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post #43726 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I would at least start with level matching the speakers and subs with a SPL meter. From there you can adjust the sub trim as I mentioned. You at least need to start from the same SPL for the speakers and subs. You use the internal AVR test tones to do so, raise the AVR MV to 0 (assume you are using a Denon?) and then level match to 75 dB.


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I think Tom is actually eating first time I don't see him in chat :-)
I left a message.


I would do the test tone and go from there this afternoon, But I think if I match all speaker then I would have what I call a problem the voices to loud, I want it the other way around voices low and sub loud/rumbling.


Thanks.
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post #43727 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I think all of us are appreciative of you sharing your experience. I know what you mean about someone not liking Accueq but coming from someone who has compared different RC systems does mean something (at least to me). Thanks again for sharing.

Btw, Any interest in coming to the Houston GTG on 9/29?


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Hmmm, Houston GTG? I’m down for that...

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post #43728 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I just want everyone to know my intent wasn't to bash Audyssey or anyone's system. Hop tagged me in the thread, so I was just sharing my experiences. If you happen to get AccuEQ and hate it, please don't reach for the tar and feathers. All this is my subjective opinion and well all know about opinions. It would probably be best to continue this via PM if you have questions or in the Onkyo threads. I am sure people who come here to read about the awesome PSA low freq thumperage are tired of hearing about room correction. Sorry for the derail.
It's not a derail @Molon_Labe and if it is then the derail is my fault because I'm the one that started the discussion. But I make no apologies for doing so for three very good reasons:

1. This thread had been dead for two days when I brought up AccuEQ. It's never fun when this thread gets quiet so I thought I would bring up a topic that I knew many would find interesting, educational and hopefully helpful as well.

2. In our never ending quest to perfect the bass in our systems we have discussed many topics in this thread that may appear off topic but are really not... such as REW and room correction software. If something (ANYTHING) has potential to improve our bass experience then it's on topic IMO.

3. Your subwoofers are only as good as your ability to get them responding correctly in the room. Any software that has the potential to improve the subwoofers in room response needs to be discussed so people know it exists. I know I was a bit bothered to realize that people were finding the new Onkyo software useful and I didn't even know it had improved enough to be a future option.

So no... I don't think things like REW and auto room correction software are off topic. What people decide to do with the information is up to them but the PSA thread is a great thread because its so full of useful information.

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Is it just me or did Tom increase the price for new models by $50 and $100 just for amp change???

Sony 45es | 120 inch screen | Panasonic BDT500 | Rotel RMB-1075 | Rotel RMB-1077 | Rotel RSP-1068 | Klipsch RP-280F/RP-450C/RP-160M (x4) | Funk Audio subs (x2) | MiniDSP 2x4HD | Crowson D-501/Shadow-8 Actuators (x2) | Monster Power Conditioner | GIK acoustic panels
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post #43730 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Is it just me or did Tom increase the price for new models by $50 and $100 just for amp change???
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think it's also because he's bringing everything in house now which increases the cost.

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post #43731 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think it's also because he's bringing everything in house now which increases the cost.
Just find that odd....cause I would assume it would actually save him money having his employees build the amp instead of speakerpower doing it?

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post #43732 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Is it just me or did Tom increase the price for new models by $50 and $100 just for amp change???
I don't think it just had to do with the amp change. As Butie pointed out the amp and the spraying of the finish came in house (which cost a lot of money to gear up for that). But they did it so they could have more control over supply and reduce the bottle necks that they had to endure (even though they weren't their fault). Another thing that PSA does is eat the cost increase of components as they occur for over a year or so until they can't afford to do it any longer. At that point they do a price increase so they can get things back in line again. But over the course of a year their suppliers often increase their prices long before PSA will increase theirs.
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post #43733 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Just find that odd....cause I would assume it would actually save him money having his employees build the amp instead of speakerpower doing it?
I believe the new amps have more features, so I think the price increase is probably fair when you take that into account.
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post #43734 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Just find that odd....cause I would assume it would actually save him money having his employees build the amp instead of speakerpower doing it?
If only Tom had addressed this exact issue 2 months ago in this very thread. Oh, wait.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56252332
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post #43735 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 01:32 PM
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I’d like to weigh in on the RC discussion and point out that IMHO, Dirac is the best software currently available. It’s not cheap however. Least expensive way to get it is in a NAD 578 V3 Receiver for around $1300.


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post #43736 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 02:51 PM
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If you have a capable vehicle I'd call them and go pick it up if you don't want to wait till tomorrow. That's what I did last time I missed a fed ex shipment
I decided to wait as I wasn't sure if it would fit in my car. I just got it today and this thing is big (atleast to me)!! This is one of those times I'm glad I weight train because if not I would have a tough time moving this.
Onto the sound, I'm left speechless. My old subwoofer sounded like trash in comparison.
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post #43737 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by cloudbuster View Post
I think Tom is actually eating first time I don't see him in chat :-)
I left a message.


I would do the test tone and go from there this afternoon, But I think if I match all speaker then I would have what I call a problem the voices to loud, I want it the other way around voices low and sub loud/rumbling.


Thanks.


Yes you do that after level matching


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post #43738 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 03:27 PM
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Hmmm, Houston GTG? I’m down for that...



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post #43739 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I’d like to weigh in on the RC discussion and point out that IMHO, Dirac is the best software currently available. It’s not cheap however. Least expensive way to get it is in a NAD 578 V3 Receiver for around $1300.


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That was the point. Molon said that Dirac was better but not by far but quite complicated. The accueq is quite simple to run.


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post #43740 of 52056 Old 07-25-2018, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
When PSA gear shows up at my house, I turn into Zeus.

That explains my black outs and lost time!

Did I turn into you when I carried in my 2400s by myself?
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