Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1493 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #44761 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Good points. But I think its important to keep mind that these big subs are already a very niche market with very few potential customers. They're expensive and in most cases very overwhelming to the decor of a room. They work great in a man cave but not so much in most living rooms. And the lower they get tuned the more expensive they get which only narrows the market potential even further. If you look at the Cap 2400 sure its tuned lower and is more powerful but once you add in shipping its also a lot more expensive than the V3611. That financial hit gets even more painful if you go duals which most of us believe is a good idea.

Having said all that I think the philosophy of the particular companies dictate where they make their compromises. A great example of this is Funk. They do custom work and make awesome subs but the price is far beyond what most can afford.

Hi Hop,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and especially with that last part. I thought that I wrote my post pretty carefully, but apparently it is subject to multiple interpretations. David correctly read my post to be suggesting some of the reasons why it may not be as simple to lower the port tune on the V3611 as he had thought. I think that he missed the philosophical reasons why it might not happen, though, and I believe that he minimized the practical ones. I think that they are very real.

Your post is actually lending further weight to what I was saying. If the guys at PSA really wanted to do it, I'm sure that they could, but it would take a lot of effort and perhaps a different driver. And, the additional time spent in R&D, and perhaps on different drivers, would have to be recouped in the price of the subwoofers. But, I think that it would be somewhat alien to the philosophy that they originally started with, and that in itself is an important factor, as you noted at the end of your post.

Personally, I would like to see it, just because. And, I think that if PSA can build and sell something as large and expensive as the S7201, then they could design, build, and sell a perhaps larger, but certainly slightly more expensive, version of their flagship ported subwoofer, with a slightly lower port tune and some additional extension. But, I think it's really all just Monday morning quarterbacking. If there actually were a PSA market for this, because PSA owners genuinely wanted it, I'm sure that Tom and Jim would eventually find a way to make it happen.

Regards,
Mike

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post #44762 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
Another question I had, purely Hypothetical, but if you let say, stuffed a piece of foam/towel in part of the slot port, And thus reduce its volume, would the tuning frequency change? I’m thinking something along the lines of rhythmik subwoofer or equivalent. I want to know from a science standpoint if this does anything. Yes I know the amplifier is not designed to do this and I’m not going to try it but I would like to know out of principle


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The tuning point of a subwoofer cabinet is a simple function of the (effective) cabinet volume versus the air resistance of the vent. Keep the vent size the same but increase the cabinet volume lowers the tuning. Or, increasing the resistance(by say blocking off half a port) also lowers the tune.

There's a number of easy to use "calculators" you can play around with to see this in action.

http://www.mobileinformationlabs.com...0lenth%201.htm

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post #44763 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ultra_Sound View Post
How far away (or recommended) should a PSA 15V sub be placed away from the back wall corner for maximum performance with minimum to no distortion? Does anyone know?
Optimal placement in room will vary from room to room and also be dependent on the seating placement as well. When I start with corner loading I shove the sub as far "into" the corner as posible without it touching any walls. The only caveat to that is port flow. With widely flared circular porting my rule of thumb is half port diameter for the minimum spacing. So if the 15V has its' port facing directly at a wall, keep 2 to 2.5 inches from port-to-wall and you'll be fine.

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post #44764 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
the v3601 Are definitely animalistic above 20 cycles But I’d be willing to give up three or 4 dB of mid bass, which is rarely maxed out, for a 14–16hz tuning.


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One very important consideration is the loss of mid and upper operating bandwidth efficiency. We shouldn't casually dismiss a 2-3dB drop as inaudible since the system may rarely be "maxxed" out in that bandwidth anyway. That would be a mistake.

My end game to all of this would be a V2 on the S7201. Put a large block off plate on the cabinet. Leave the plate on, it's just another quad 18 inch array with both push-pull and mass cancelling engineering...yawn. Remove the plate and secure the patented atmospheric laminizer duct chamber and you have a S7201 tuned to 7hz. Flip one toggle switch on the amp and home damage is back on the menu. If we got our *hit together we could just put in a relay on block off plate. When that is removed and the duct installed the amp auto senses it and goes to ported mode on its own.

But it still won't have a phone amp...

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post #44765 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 05:08 PM
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post #44766 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post

The reality of it all is I should probably just trade my 1801 in for a second 3 601 and just add Crowsons. That would be the economical way to go and probably actually sound better
I highly recommend this plan. The dual V3601/Crowson combo is by far the best thing going IMO. Atmos runs 2nd.
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post #44767 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Hop,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and especially with that last part. I thought that I wrote my post pretty carefully, but apparently it is subject to multiple interpretations. David correctly read my post to be suggesting some of the reasons why it may not be as simple to lower the port tune on the V3611 as he had thought. I think that he missed the philosophical reasons why it might not happen, though, and I believe that he minimized the practical ones. I think that they are very real.

Your post is actually lending further weight to what I was saying. If the guys at PSA really wanted to do it, I'm sure that they could, but it would take a lot of effort and perhaps a different driver. And, the additional time spent in R&D, and perhaps on different drivers, would have to be recouped in the price of the subwoofers. But, I think that it would be somewhat alien to the philosophy that they originally started with, and that in itself is an important factor, as you noted at the end of your post.

Personally, I would like to see it, just because. And, I think that if PSA can build and sell something as large and expensive as the S7201, then they could design, build, and sell a perhaps larger, but certainly slightly more expensive, version of their flagship ported subwoofer, with a slightly lower port tune and some additional extension. But, I think it's really all just Monday morning quarterbacking. If there actually were a PSA market for this, because PSA owners genuinely wanted it, I'm sure that Tom and Jim would eventually find a way to make it happen.

Regards,
Mike
In truth I would like to see it as well but I think it might end up being past my price range. I know that Tom and Jim can design and produce whatever they decide they want so a low tuned ported sub may be in the cards someday. And I know it would sell but how many would sell is the question. Like I said, low tuned ported subs seem to be pricey.

On another note, I think the limiting factor for PSA might be the cabinets. That seems to be the bottle neck that slows things down more often than not and every time they add another sub model that's another cabinet design that has to be ordered and waited on which also pushes some other set of cabinets further back in the queue. However, now that PSA has the amp in house and the cabinet finishing in house maybe the cabinet production isn't far behind. That would be awesome. But as you said, we are just guessing and Monday morning quarterbacking. Only Tom and Jim know the real ins and outs.

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post #44768 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 05:54 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Have you actually brought in a lower tuned sub and did a blind test to see if you actually can tell a difference between 14 and 19hz?

My thought exactly. I think it’s easy to get caught up in spec chasing and REW graphs, and often causes us to forget to ask if the difference is even noticeable on real material, and what percentage of the time. Also, is the source material that goes that low even worth watching (i.e. EOT intro...)?

I think PSA has a really smart balancing act going with their current ported offerings. They extend low enough for what, 99% of the source material out there? And the performance within that 99% is stellar. It is a great place to draw the line IMHO, and it lets them source their parts from places capable of offering the performance, reliability, QC, and volume they need. You can tell this was carefully thought out on many fronts, very smart.

Let’s also not forget, they have not completely abandoned chasing that last 1%. The s3611 and s7201 have that covered in spades!


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post #44769 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 05:59 PM
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Here is something you don't often see on the PSA website. I wonder if Tom is still celebrating that Browns win.
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post #44770 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 06:03 PM
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Here is something you don't often see on the PSA website. I wonder if Tom is still celebrating that Browns win.
chats are on...

Maybe just a browser hiccup?

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post #44771 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
My thought exactly. I think it’s easy to get caught up in spec chasing and REW graphs, and often causes us to forget to ask if the difference is even noticeable on real material, and what percentage of the time. Also, is the source material that goes that low even worth watching (i.e. EOT intro...)?

I think PSA has a really smart balancing act going with their current ported offerings. They extend low enough for what, 99% of the source material out there? And the performance within that 99% is stellar. It is a great place to draw the line IMHO, and it lets them source their parts from places capable of offering the performance, reliability, QC, and volume they need. You can tell this was carefully thought out on many fronts, very smart.

Let’s also not forget, they have not completely abandoned chasing that last 1%. The s3611 and s7201 have that covered in spades!


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Agreed!! I can say from experience that with out REW I would not be able to tell a difference between reference capable at 16hz compared to 13hz in my room...but not every room is the same.
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post #44772 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
My thought exactly. I think it’s easy to get caught up in spec chasing and REW graphs, and often causes us to forget to ask if the difference is even noticeable on real material, and what percentage of the time. Also, is the source material that goes that low even worth watching (i.e. EOT intro...)?

I think PSA has a really smart balancing act going with their current ported offerings. They extend low enough for what, 99% of the source material out there? And the performance within that 99% is stellar. It is a great place to draw the line IMHO, and it lets them source their parts from places capable of offering the performance, reliability, QC, and volume they need. You can tell this was carefully thought out on many fronts, very smart.

Let’s also not forget, they have not completely abandoned chasing that last 1%. The s3611 and s7201 have that covered in spades!


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Yes but a big, lower tuned ported sub trumps them both in the sub bass SPL. Let’s put our drinks down for a sec and come to reality.... we all appreciate subterranean bass . Midbass is cool and all but....


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post #44773 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 06:56 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
chats are on...



Maybe just a browser hiccup?



Tom V.

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Outstanding, I mean leave the chat alone, the man is on the forums responding on a Sat night! Hats off Tom to your service and availability!


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post #44774 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

On another note, I think the limiting factor for PSA might be the cabinets. That seems to be the bottle neck that slows things down more often than not and every time they add another sub model that's another cabinet design that has to be ordered and waited on which also pushes some other set of cabinets further back in the queue. However, now that PSA has the amp in house and the cabinet finishing in house maybe the cabinet production isn't far behind. That would be awesome. But as you said, we are just guessing and Monday morning quarterbacking. Only Tom and Jim know the real ins and outs.
It's always fun to discuss what ifs and speculation like this.. I wish we all lived close enough to just sit and shoot the breeze at the local Slaughtered Lamb. Well, minus the full moon of course. We could just put two 21" cutouts on the back side of the S7201 too. Dual IPAL 21s. 4000 watts. With four high mass 18" PRs(where the active 18s are now) tuning the whole thing to whatever...10hz?

We've gotten things running pretty smoothly now in the spray shop and with amplifier production.

We're adding another new employee who starts on Monday I believe.

All domestic orders are 100% caught up now. We're not quite back to "same day shipping" but we're not far off. 2-3 business days right now I'd say. What has been tripping us up a little has been international orders. We just shipped a big order to the UK a couple of weeks ago. Now we have another couple-few pallets heading to Singapore(see picture) this week. And we've just signed on a dealer for China too. You read that right.. Made in USA, sold in china. That's another pretty big order(bigger than Singapore for sure). And I think we have Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan coming up soon as well.

And its not like things are ever boring in my office

Tom V.
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post #44775 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 07:19 PM
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Outstanding, I mean leave the chat alone, the man is on the forums responding on a Sat night! Hats off Tom to your service and availability!


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Ray, any news about your receiver, repair again or replacing with newer 4400, I hope the latter my friend......
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Ray, any news about your receiver, repair again or replacing with newer 4400, I hope the latter my friend......


Hi Jeffrey, it has to be sent in to the repair center one more time before they entertain replacement. I have sent it in yet as I am in midst of hosting a GTG with Todd and have a bunch some subs sitting in my house which I wanted to listen to as well. Plan to send it in first week of October.


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post #44777 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
It's always fun to discuss what ifs and speculation like this.. I wish we all lived close enough to just sit and shoot the breeze at the local Slaughtered Lamb. Well, minus the full moon of course. We could just put two 21" cutouts on the back side of the S7201 too. Dual IPAL 21s. 4000 watts. With four high mass 18" PRs(where the active 18s are now) tuning the whole thing to whatever...10hz?



We've gotten things running pretty smoothly now in the spray shop and with amplifier production.



We're adding another new employee who starts on Monday I believe.



All domestic orders are 100% caught up now. We're not quite back to "same day shipping" but we're not far off. 2-3 business days right now I'd say. What has been tripping us up a little has been international orders. We just shipped a big order to the UK a couple of weeks ago. Now we have another couple-few pallets heading to Singapore(see picture) this week. And we've just signed on a dealer for China too. You read that right.. Made in USA, sold in china. That's another pretty big order(bigger than Singapore for sure). And I think we have Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan coming up soon as well.



And its not like things are ever boring in my office



Tom V.

Power Sound Audio

"Slaughtered Lamb" that brings back some fun memories... I remember being 13 and sneaking in to see that one at the 2 screen theater in upstate NY. The effects had me mesmerized....




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post #44778 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 07:57 PM
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Tom... explain


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Dual S1510 hooked up and ran through Audyssey XT32 and man, I am impressed. I came from a single Hsu VTF3 MK5 and then dual Rythmik F12SE. I like these best, and it's not even close. Thank you very much for all your time and help Tom, it's greatly appreciated.

BTW, the TV is NOT as high as it looks 🙂
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post #44780 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
It's always fun to discuss what ifs and speculation like this.. I wish we all lived close enough to just sit and shoot the breeze at the local Slaughtered Lamb.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I agree. I think it would be absolutely awesome if all of us who hang out in this thread lived close enough so we could get together and relax with some ribs and beer. We could talk about everything from subwoofers to movies to all the other crazy topics we introduce into this thread and just have a great time. This thread is a lot like a family... its a tight group of guys so I'm sure we would have a blast. I'd even bring a keg of home-brew... perhaps a nice IPA.

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post #44781 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
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Tom... explain


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That's a prototype PR (passive radiator) design that the guys were working on, same (similar) size box as the V18 with output capabilities of the V36, active driver and passive radiators instead of ports, if ever finished it won't look like that with the radiators (drivers) inverted........
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
It's always fun to discuss what ifs and speculation like this.. I wish we all lived close enough to just sit and shoot the breeze at the local Slaughtered Lamb. Well, minus the full moon of course. We could just put two 21" cutouts on the back side of the S7201 too. Dual IPAL 21s. 4000 watts. With four high mass 18" PRs(where the active 18s are now) tuning the whole thing to whatever...10hz?

We've gotten things running pretty smoothly now in the spray shop and with amplifier production.

We're adding another new employee who starts on Monday I believe.

All domestic orders are 100% caught up now. We're not quite back to "same day shipping" but we're not far off. 2-3 business days right now I'd say. What has been tripping us up a little has been international orders. We just shipped a big order to the UK a couple of weeks ago. Now we have another couple-few pallets heading to Singapore(see picture) this week. And we've just signed on a dealer for China too. You read that right.. Made in USA, sold in china. That's another pretty big order(bigger than Singapore for sure). And I think we have Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan coming up soon as well.

And its not like things are ever boring in my office

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

While I was a previous customer of yours, but not for PSA.

I find this news to very exciting
Great news indeed.
Wishing you the best!!!


Ray
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post #44783 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 08:33 PM
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While I was a previous customer of yours, but not for PSA.


I find this news to very exciting
Great news indeed.
Wishing you the best!!!


Ray
I just got there last week when Tom was speaking to someone in China about a big order being placed but payment wasn't received yet, I guess that and a few other deals have transpired since last week, that didn't take long to happen, I think Tom was speaking Chinese as well.......... Great news indeed Ray.

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #44784 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 08:36 PM
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Hi Jeffrey, it has to be sent in to the repair center one more time before they entertain replacement. I have sent it in yet as I am in midst of hosting a GTG with Todd and have a bunch some subs sitting in my house which I wanted to listen to as well. Plan to send it in first week of October.


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Have a good GTG and hope you share the experience.............
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post #44785 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 08:44 PM
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I just got there last week when Tom was speaking to someone in China about a big order being placed but payment wasn't received yet, I guess that and a few other deals have transpired since last week, that didn't take long to happen, I think Tom was speaking Chinese as well.......... Great news indeed Ray.

Cheers Jeffrey

A language hard to get by

Also, I see that you added a few links to your Signature, since we last chat on these forums.
Glad to see, you have master-it


Ray
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post #44786 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 10:13 PM
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I'd even bring a keg of home-brew... perhaps a nice IPA.[/QUOTE]

@Hopinater said that as I am drinking a two hearted ale(IPA)! Made my heart skip a beat, that and the volcano explosion in the JP Fallen Kingdom. Man that movie has some great bass for PSA subs!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #44787 of 52656 Old 09-22-2018, 11:57 PM
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Saw Jurassic World fallen kingdom tonight from Redbox and was pretty dissapointed. Pretty standard affair and didn’t offer much in the way of story, although not like I should have expected much. In these situations I at least hope for some nice bass but it was pretty non existent for the most part. The previous Jurassic world had better bass. Saw Adrift and that was so sweet with bass.

Any new Redbox movies you guys have seen where the bass was impressive? Just amazes me how great one movie is with bass and feel totally satisfied and then the nest film has me questioning if I need a bigger sub

Speakers: Fronts- JBL 230, Center- JBL 235C, Surrounds: Fluance XLBP
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post #44788 of 52656 Old 09-23-2018, 05:56 AM
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Saw Jurassic World fallen kingdom tonight from Redbox and was pretty dissapointed. Pretty standard affair and didn’t offer much in the way of story, although not like I should have expected much. In these situations I at least hope for some nice bass but it was pretty non existent for the most part. The previous Jurassic world had better bass. Saw Adrift and that was so sweet with bass.

Any new Redbox movies you guys have seen where the bass was impressive? Just amazes me how great one movie is with bass and feel totally satisfied and then the nest film has me questioning if I need a bigger sub
Maybe the Redbox copy is filtered?, I thought JW:FK had pretty good bass actually. What about the intro? and the
Spoiler!

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
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post #44789 of 52656 Old 09-23-2018, 06:03 AM
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Outstanding, I mean leave the chat alone, the man is on the forums responding on a Sat night! Hats off Tom to your service and availability!


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To be clear, I wasn't complaining that the chat wasn't online. Sometimes I wonder when Tom sleeps.

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post #44790 of 52656 Old 09-23-2018, 06:39 AM
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Maybe the Redbox copy is filtered?, I thought JW:FK had pretty good bass actually. What about the intro? and the
Spoiler!
I guess I shouldn’t say it was non existent. I take that back. Just less potent than the first Jurassic world if going off memory. The Redbox is a lossless version.

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