Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1495 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #44821 of 52395 Old 09-24-2018, 06:13 PM
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This just came in, Denon x4400H, I got it for $790 from crutch! Now I get to compare it to my 3 week old Marantz 6012 and see which one I'll be keeping.

The 2 things I don't like about my Marantz is the small display (ironically it's also what makes the Marantz look more appealing than the Denon, IMO) and the on-screen menu. Also the remote buttons have to be pushed all the way down for the change to take place, not the case at all with my previous Onkyo.

Sound quality wise the Marantz is great! Haven't ran REW as I'm waiting to get my laptop back, but as of now it sounds great, could def be better, but that's more of a tweaking/setup issue rather than a Marantz issue.

My Marantz gets really hot, and I've read reviews where this model Denon x4400H gets extremely hot, so it'll be interesting to see how much hotter it gets. I do however plan on adding a fan as @subacabra recommended.

Just wanted to update y'all on my current learning process, that is all.
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post #44822 of 52395 Old 09-24-2018, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
This just came in, Denon x4400H, I got it for $790 from crutch! Now I get to compare it to my 3 week old Marantz 6012 and see which one I'll be keeping.

The 2 things I don't like about my Marantz is the small display (ironically it's also what makes the Marantz look more appealing than the Denon, IMO) and the on-screen menu. Also the remote buttons have to be pushed all the way down for the change to take place, not the case at all with my previous Onkyo.

Sound quality wise the Marantz is great! Haven't ran REW as I'm waiting to get my laptop back, but as of now it sounds great, could def be better, but that's more of a tweaking/setup issue rather than a Marantz issue.

My Marantz gets really hot, and I've read reviews where this model Denon x4400H gets extremely hot, so it'll be interesting to see how much hotter it gets. I do however plan on adding a fan as @subacabra recommended.

Just wanted to update y'all on my current learning process, that is all.
Dang... I overpaid $9 by getting a brand new 4400H shipped form ABT...

I like it a lot so far.

Yup, the Denon x4400H gets hot, but not as hot as people make it out to be.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #44823 of 52395 Old 09-24-2018, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Dang... I overpaid $9 by getting a brand new 4400H shipped form ABT...

I like it a lot so far.

Yup, the Denon x4400H gets hot, but not as hot as people make it out to be.


I am quite intrigued how Geo was able to negotiate a further $9 since their price is $899 and I could see them going to $799.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
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post #44824 of 52395 Old 09-24-2018, 07:11 PM
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Meanwhile my little guy is getting to level 14 on zombies over here lol
The PSA subs and speakers are kicking butt!
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post #44825 of 52395 Old 09-24-2018, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Dang... I overpaid $9 by getting a brand new 4400H shipped form ABT...

I like it a lot so far.

Yup, the Denon x4400H gets hot, but not as hot as people make it out to be.
Yeah I read another post of yours regarding your first impressions with the 4400 and Audyssey actually doing something for you. I'd have to have a thermometer to compare to be more accurate but that's too much for me. Either way I'll have an ext fan eventually.
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post #44826 of 52395 Old 09-24-2018, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I am quite intrigued how Geo was able to negotiate a further $9 since their price is $899 and I could see them going to $799.
Original Crutch price $899. Scratch n Dent for $812. Used a $22 rewards card from my crutch points which brought the price down to $790.

Here's a pic of the $87 saving scratch.....completely worth it! IMO.

Same 3 yr warranty.
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post #44827 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

One very important consideration is the loss of mid and upper operating bandwidth efficiency. We shouldn't casually dismiss a 2-3dB drop as inaudible since the system may rarely be "maxxed" out in that bandwidth anyway. That would be a mistake.

My end game to all of this would be a V2 on the S7201. Put a large block off plate on the cabinet. Leave the plate on, it's just another quad 18 inch array with both push-pull and mass cancelling engineering...yawn. Remove the plate and secure the patented atmospheric laminizer duct chamber and you have a S7201 tuned to 7hz. Flip one toggle switch on the amp and home damage is back on the menu. If we got our *hit together we could just put in a relay on block off plate. When that is removed and the duct installed the amp auto senses it and goes to ported mode on its own.

But it still won't have a phone amp...

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If you do a v2 s7201 please include feet and threading to be able to place it on its back without damaging knobs and cables. 😅

Receiver: Denon AVR-X6300H, 7.3.4 Atmos: Subs: PSA 1 S7201, 2 V3611, Fronts: SVS Ultra Towers, Center: SVS Ultra Center, Surrounds: 4 SVS Ultra Bookshelves, Ceilings: 4 JBL 81C
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post #44828 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
This just came in, Denon x4400H, I got it for $790 from crutch! Now I get to compare it to my 3 week old Marantz 6012 and see which one I'll be keeping.

The 2 things I don't like about my Marantz is the small display (ironically it's also what makes the Marantz look more appealing than the Denon, IMO) and the on-screen menu. Also the remote buttons have to be pushed all the way down for the change to take place, not the case at all with my previous Onkyo.

Sound quality wise the Marantz is great! Haven't ran REW as I'm waiting to get my laptop back, but as of now it sounds great, could def be better, but that's more of a tweaking/setup issue rather than a Marantz issue.

My Marantz gets really hot, and I've read reviews where this model Denon x4400H gets extremely hot, so it'll be interesting to see how much hotter it gets. I do however plan on adding a fan as @subacabra recommended.

Just wanted to update y'all on my current learning process, that is all.
I don't really think my 6012 gets that hot, but the PSA speakers are really easy to drive so that could be part of it. I agree on the Remote and Display.
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post #44829 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Dang... I overpaid $9 by getting a brand new 4400H shipped form ABT...

I like it a lot so far.

Yup, the Denon x4400H gets hot, but not as hot as people make it out to be.
I will neither confirm nor deny that I got my Denon x4400 for $599.

Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
Sub: PSA TV36-iPal
Speakers: 3 x Chane A2.4 LCR, Klipsch Quintet Surrounds
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post #44830 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
Well, that would suck to have a speaker that decreases in Awesomeness over time! Perhaps just a big massive 18 or 21 inch driver with a huge surface area port. Regardless of box size, this is a speaker for bass heads that want to shred drywall, organs or simply impress themselves each time they play a movie. For those that want to stay with the Low/mid bass approach, there’s a whole other lineup of PSA subs for that.

I just have a hunch that the speaker would sell more than is predicted, Especially if it’s not quite as tall as a v3601.


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that's with the PR mass fighting gravity. With the mass moving horizontally there's not going to be much degradation over time(in terms of xsus). There will always be some because of the pressure differences inside and outside but that's trivial in context.

JJ from Stryke did a high output 15 inch PR based sub WAY back in the day. Like 2002? Nousaine measured it. Here's an old post including a comparison list of a lot of subs back then,

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/com...500-600.12383/

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post #44831 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by powerdubs View Post
Or an S6000




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That's already available.

Four 15" drivers, 1920 watts(rms). 4000+ watt peaks. Sealed.

And, conveniently, 2 piece as well. So you have the option to use it a one large subwoofer(stacked modules for example) aka S6010. Or you can separate the dual modules for the potential benefits associated with multiple subwoofers.

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/prod...=8239907733593

There's even a S9010 option. We can see one in action here.

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Power Sound Audio
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post #44832 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post

I just have a hunch that the speaker would sell more than is predicted, Especially if it’s not quite as tall as a v3601.


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Well, so far we have one sale total.

MOQ on cabinets? 20? 60 grills? Ballpark that at 8-12k.
MOQ on active 18? 25(we've never purchased in less than 50 iirc but let's TRY to make this feasible and use a very low MOQ of 25. Ballpark that at 7.5-10k
MOQ on PRs. 50? Ballpark that at 6-8k.

New amp stuff specific to this product? Meh, say 1k
All other misc (inner boxing, outer boxing)? say 1k

>$25,000 right there. This doesn't factor in ANY ancillary costs like cad time for the cabinet, the $1500(?) cost to us for the sample cabinet for us to approve from cincy(with grills), engineering time, website updates, dealer updates, etc. Oh and say $1500(?) total for a few 18 inch proto types and PR proto types as well.

So we're closing in on 30k-40k pretty quick.

And that's keeping all the MOQs very low. That means our cost to build go way up as well. So now instead of a $2899 product it might be 3499. Did we just lose our one sale? Who's buying this now when you can get similar(or maybe even better) performance from the V3611 at $2249?

Double all the MOQs and get it down to $2899 and now it's a 70-80k initial investment. For one confirmed sale that we'd net maybe $200 on...


Hey, TRUST me. There's nothing I would love more than offering every single product idea that pops up here. Going through these what-if scenarios can be very interesting. If I could work 8 days a week to make it happen I would.

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Power Sound Audio
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post #44833 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 09:16 AM
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I will neither confirm nor deny that I got my Denon x4400 for $599.
Well, is it a brand new Denon X4400H through normal channels that are available to others as well without using cashback and gift cards?

If not, don't start.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

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post #44834 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 09:42 AM
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Love the look (and performance) of the triple stacked s3000s.

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post #44835 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, is it a brand new Denon X4400H through normal channels that are available to others as well without using cashback and gift cards?

If not, don't start.
I originally purchased the X3400 and Denon swapped it for an X4400. Definitely not a normal occurrence that anyone else could take advantage of.
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post #44836 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That's already available.

Four 15" drivers, 1920 watts(rms). 4000+ watt peaks. Sealed.

And, conveniently, 2 piece as well. So you have the option to use it a one large subwoofer(stacked modules for example) aka S6010. Or you can separate the dual modules for the potential benefits associated with multiple subwoofers.

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/prod...=8239907733593

There's even a S9010 option. We can see one in action here.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

That pic gets me all excited. I have been considering two S3611 subs as end tables near-field to my sofas and recliner (where my current end tables and lights are). I was wondering what kind of smoothing that would provide me with the corner loaded S7201. It's okay to dream.
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Power Sound Audio S7201 Quad 18" 4000W Sealed Subwoofer - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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post #44837 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
There's even a S9010 option. We can see one in action here.
Whoa, what finish is that? Can I get an S1510 with the same finish?? I'll order one tonight if so
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post #44838 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 02:55 PM
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Whoa, what finish is that? Can I get an S1510 with the same finish?? I'll order one tonight if so
I think it might be American Cherry:

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S1510

Clik on the Finish Options button above qty to get the high res pics.

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post #44839 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 02:59 PM
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That pic gets me all excited. I have been considering two S3611 subs as end tables near-field to my sofas and recliner (where my current end tables and lights are). I was wondering what kind of smoothing that would provide me with the corner loaded S7201. It's okay to dream.
Can you put a second s7201 where you are standing, kitty corner from your current one? It looks so lonely there, all by itself

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post #44840 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 04:18 PM
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I wanted to give props to Tom and PSA for their trade-in/up program. When I was in the market to upgrade my old Mirage BPS400 sub several years ago I looked at several ID companies and reached out to each one. I was only blown away by 1 company with how they answered all my annoying questions and concerns and put me at ease with making a large purchase from an ID company. That company is POWER SOUND AUDIO. I would have never been able to go from 1 XS30 to dual S3600I seamlessly if it wasn't for Tom and PSA. Each upgrade/transaction went smoothly and gave me that kid on Christmas day feeling. Thank you again, Tom and Jim, for all that you do for us. We greatly appreciate it.
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post #44841 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 05:08 PM
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I wanted to give props to Tom and PSA for their trade-in/up program. When I was in the market to upgrade my old Mirage BPS400 sub several years ago I looked at several ID companies and reached out to each one. I was only blown away by 1 company with how they answered all my annoying questions and concerns and put me at ease with making a large purchase from an ID company. That company is POWER SOUND AUDIO. I would have never been able to go from 1 XS30 to dual S3600I seamlessly if it wasn't for Tom and PSA. Each upgrade/transaction went smoothly and gave me that kid on Christmas day feeling. Thank you again, Tom and Jim, for all that you do for us. We greatly appreciate it.

Yep. I'm sure I annoyed the hell out of Tom back when they were just starting SVS with all of the email questions and he never missed a beat or showed any signs of aggravation (at least to me ). I had some of the very first SVS subs and purchased from them multiple times. Every time, Tom bent over backwards day and night (what company responds to emails at 1 and 2 am?) to provide all of the info I requested and was happy to help. It's amazing that he has been able to keep up that level of customer support this many years later. Tom and Jim also helped me out BIG time on a product that was WAY out of warranty. Simply amazing! I tip my hat to both of these guys. The level of customer support they provide is simply unheard of in this day and age, which makes it all the more impressive.

Their commitment to American Made is very sweet icing on the cake!
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post #44842 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 06:53 PM
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I have a question regarding room gain and port tune.

Let's say sub "x" is an 18" with a 17hz port tune. If I were to put 4 of those, one in each corner of my room and I were to get a gain of about 1.5hz per corner due to room gain/corner loading....would i be hitting around 11hz strong?

I know I've read that no matter how many of the same subs you add they would still cut off at port tune, so would this be an exception?

Super noob question, sorry.....
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post #44843 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I wanted to give props to Tom and PSA for their trade-in/up program. When I was in the market to upgrade my old Mirage BPS400 sub several years ago I looked at several ID companies and reached out to each one. I was only blown away by 1 company with how they answered all my annoying questions and concerns and put me at ease with making a large purchase from an ID company. That company is POWER SOUND AUDIO. I would have never been able to go from 1 XS30 to dual S3600I seamlessly if it wasn't for Tom and PSA. Each upgrade/transaction went smoothly and gave me that kid on Christmas day feeling. Thank you again, Tom and Jim, for all that you do for us. We greatly appreciate it.
Mike I remember when you first got the XS30 and followed your journey ever since my friend, Tom had me from hello Jeff how can I help you today from the first email I sent and I got a reply that same day. You can understand my surprise and trust in PSA as I was coming from Epik................... I'll be sharing my experience with the new V36s soon which I might add went seamlessly as well as did all my many transactions over the last 6 + years. Initially I thought the V36s were huge and would stand out like a sore thumb but the missus asks every day if I moved them somewhere else and I have to show her where they're at, they literally disappear until you power them up and still aren't localized............. Enjoy my friend...............

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #44844 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
I have a question regarding room gain and port tune.

Let's say sub "x" is an 18" with a 17hz port tune. If I were to put 4 of those, one in each corner of my room and I were to get a gain of about 1.5hz per corner due to room gain/corner loading....would i be hitting around 11hz strong?

I know I've read that no matter how many of the same subs you add they would still cut off at port tune, so would this be an exception?

Super noob question, sorry.....
You don't gain any extension per se but if you were to use a mini dsp or some form of eq and apply a low shelf filter, you would gain some more useable output down low. It Won't change the tuning point but you will be able to lift the low end up. For example, when I added a V1801 to my 3 XV15, my low end response lifted up enough to get me reference capability down to 13hz opposed to 16hz, but the "knee" of the response didn't change. The roll off still starts at the same frequency of the subs tuning point. Hope that makes sense.
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post #44845 of 52395 Old 09-25-2018, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
I have a question regarding room gain and port tune.

Let's say sub "x" is an 18" with a 17hz port tune. If I were to put 4 of those, one in each corner of my room and I were to get a gain of about 1.5hz per corner due to room gain/corner loading....would i be hitting around 11hz strong?

I know I've read that no matter how many of the same subs you add they would still cut off at port tune, so would this be an exception?

Super noob question, sorry.....
Let's use an in-room output compression of a V1801 for example:



The graph hasn't shown compression yet. Let's just assume that this compression sweep was taken with one V1801 at a corner. According to the graph, the V1801 can hit 105dB @ 15Hz and 99dB @ 10Hz.

Let's just say you want 110dB of meaningful output from 10Hz and up. Right now, you have meaningful output down to 17Hz or so. Everytime you double the number of subs, you gain an average of 6dB.

Therefore, when you go dual V1801, you can hit 111dB @ 15Hz and 105dB @ 10Hz. Now you have meaningful output down to 15Hz.

Then when you go quad V1801, you can hit 117dB @ 15Hz and 111dB @ 10Hz. Now you have meaningful output down to 10Hz.

Typically below port tune, the FR drops like a rock. When all else being equal, you will get higher output at a lower frequency by going with the sub with the lowest port tune. Therefore, if you want meaningful output at say 10Hz, you are better off getting a 12 Hz tuned sub than a 20Hz tuned one.

Now, F3 extension is defined as where the FR drops by 3dB and does not come back up. Regardless of how many V1801s you have in this room, the FR still drops by 3dB at around 17Hz. Therefore, adding more V1801s does not improve the extension.

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Last edited by chucky7; 09-25-2018 at 10:42 PM.
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post #44846 of 52395 Old 09-26-2018, 06:09 AM
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Now, F3 extension is defined as where the FR drops by 3dB and does not come back up. Regardless of how many V1801s you have in this room, the FR still drops by 3dB at around 17Hz. Therefore, adding more V1801s does not improve the extension.
This is a per-subwoofer spec definition of "extension" vs. in-room FR of all the subs combined though, right? Because at some point wouldn't you have enough additional output to be able to boost the lower frequencies including around 17 Hz to where the 17 Hz mark still falls within 3 dB of the upper frequency range, and thus extend your overall F3 extension to below the tuning point for each sub?


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post #44847 of 52395 Old 09-26-2018, 07:22 AM
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Here's a newer made in USA, ICE powered(its one of the 700 series modules), PR sub..

All sorts of fun things going on here. I'd love to measure one. I'm sure it sounds very good as Legacy is known for their engineering chops.

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post #44849 of 52395 Old 09-26-2018, 09:11 AM
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Thanks guys, i had to read it a couple times to get it but I understand it now. I appreciate the help!
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post #44850 of 52395 Old 09-26-2018, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MentatYP View Post
This is a per-subwoofer spec definition of "extension" vs. in-room FR of all the subs combined though, right? Because at some point wouldn't you have enough additional output to be able to boost the lower frequencies including around 17 Hz to where the 17 Hz mark still falls within 3 dB of the upper frequency range, and thus extend your overall F3 extension to below the tuning point for each sub?
Well, the typical FR refers to anechoic or outdoor, in room FR usually gets you about 2~3dB lower for subwoofers. In this case, the V1801 is tuned to high teens and the in-room extension is 17Hz or so.

You are talking about meaningful output, which is different from the classic definition of F3 extension.
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