Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1524 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #45691 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 10:23 AM
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Get a s3611 unless you have a huge room... concrete or no concrete


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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
depends on the alignment of your DIY 18's....keep them matching ported or sealed.
Appreciate the responses!!

Should have had more in my original post, was being sort of sarcastic re: wondering my classification, and if I was specifically asking for advice on S3611 vs V3611 I would have given more details on my room/current equipment, but I do really appreciate the input! This forum is great!!

I already have emails going back and forth with Tom who is helping me choose, but you guys are hitting the nail on the head anyway. I am just waiting for a final email from Tom re: some frequency responses I took nearfield of DIYs, but looks like I will be going S3611 regardless - should have been an obvious choice given the sealed DIYs I already have, but had bad case of 'purchase decision anxiety' and unfortunately I won't be able to utilise the 60 day trial period in my circumstance, so wanted to be sure before I ordered.

I do have (what I would consider) a large room - 24x24x7, left side open to stairwell going upstairs. Doorway in rear of room. Flooring is carpet over concrete.

My DIYs are both sealed and I still get decent room gain down to 10hz (DIYs seem to go down to about 18-19hz or so before dropping off based on my interpretation of nearfield measurements)

EDIT: Heard back from Tom... S3611 is officially ordered!

Will post pics once I have the beauty in!
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post #45692 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Also, for anyone curious about acoustics and how measurements correlate to our own listening experiences this is the best 60 bucks you'll ever spend.

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reprodu...40_&dpSrc=srch

Toole has a knack for making complex topics accessible and yet concise. And he also offers practical tips for every audio enthusiast regardless of your level of "insanity"..

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Book ordered!
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post #45693 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 11:31 AM
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Those were special times that ended too soon. I've said it before but once we added Stephen Ponte to the r/d tent...man what could have been. The ONE project we designed from the ground up was the PB13u. I signed off on that design in spring 2007(iirc). That sub could STILL go neck to neck with pretty much anything available NOW(11 years later!) at it's price point. I'm not sure there's another subwoofer, anywhere, that could make that claim. And that is with the woofer assembled on site in Ohio. The black satin cabinets made in Ohio too. The amps were from Canada or China. I can't remember exactly when we were forced to go to China. So $1499 with everything(but the amp) sourced in the USA, and the product assembled in Ohio. It's difficult for me to truly convey the potential we had in place.

I still remember testing the very first 13 woofer proto type. It performed, poorly. Ponte had been with us for a while by now but this was his first "ground up" design that we gave him 100% control over. I left him alone and just said if you need anything let me know. When we measured the proto type I called him at his office and instructed him to drop whatever he was doing and come to the measurement area. He gets there and I show him the data-set. Everything was off, WAY off. BL, FS, compliance, qes, efficiency was so bad I thought the motor wasn't magnetized correctly.

He was like "oh right on, this is exactly what I wanted, groovy man!". I'll have the second version glued up tonight and it will be a beautiful thing, just beautiful!" I mean, he was just so happy? Jim and I just exchanged glances like "this kid has no clue, how can he look at THIS data-set and be happy about anything". And I'M thinking what have I done? This is my responsibility, we have a schedule, and I made a HUGE mistake I'm going to have to explain to all the other owners(of svs) now. I;m the one who sold them on giving Ponte control over the woofer design. I mean I told him exactly what I needed, but I left it up to him on how to best implement it all to get that result. Even more troubling was how happy this kid is about an ugly looking data-set. I literally wondered if he was a little "off" after that. He just wasn't accepting reality?

So anyway, I'm not saying anything to anyone (other owners) about this as we'll be measuring the second version in a few days. I'm just putting together a plan-b on how to minimize the delays/costs. You don't present a problem without also presenting solutions. Few days go by, he brings the second version for testing. Now, the first version was so bad that best case ...BEST case would be this one is trending the right way and MAYBE with another 1-2 tries we're getting close to our targets.

We measure. It is spot on perfect. Spot on. I mean it's essentially what we went to production with and it still in production now!

He was there and so nonchalant about it all. We run the sets multiple times to check for any variance and it's spot on. This kid just designed a woofer that could toe-toe with ANYTHING in the industry at that time with a tiny fraction of the r/d tools everyone else has(big brands). And after we all see its perfect he's just like "yeah, right on man. Need anything else Tom because I need to get back to my office".

Tom V.
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That's a great story, Tom.

Is that the same Stephen Ponte who's now a Development Engineer at JL Audio?
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post #45694 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Most new product scenarios would require a significant cash outlay, that is true. But in this case, the dual 15/1960w/low tuned enclosure wouldn't require much at all. <$10,000 for sure. That's including everything, down to new boxing and one cabinet proto-type for approval as well.

We just spent 10k on a fork lift we use a couple times a month so that wouldn't be much issue.. And at $1999 pre-order I'd say $20,000 in pre orders wouldn't be shocking. But even at half that the entire product introduction is paid for ...well in advance.

So there's plenty of important considerations before saying yay or nay but the costing isn't involved in this one..

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That's encouraging.. What do you imagine the cabinet dimensions would be? Any chance of growing it taller rather than wider/deeper?
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post #45695 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 12:44 PM
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Okay, I'm officially very jealous of you guys with your HT on a suspended floor instead of concrete. Last night I was watching the movie "Stitch" which has some occasional bass moments and when those moments hit the S1801 was vibrating the couch like it had Crowsons under it. Suspended floors are sooooo much better than concrete floors for providing the full effect of Bass.

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post #45696 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 12:59 PM
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Okay, I'm officially very jealous of you guys with your HT on a suspended floor instead of concrete. Last night I was watching the movie "Stitch" which has some occasional bass moments and when those moments hit the S1801 was vibrating the couch like it had Crowsons under it. Suspended floors are sooooo much better than concrete floors for providing the full effect of Bass.
I guess we (with suspended floors) just take it for granted. I remember demoing some ULF bass videos off of Youtube for some friends and even with just my PC12+ there was a moment or two where you could actually feel the floor flex slightly.

I can only imagine what a pair of truly powerful, low tuned subs would do.
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post #45697 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 01:02 PM
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That's a great story, Tom.

Is that the same Stephen Ponte who's now a Development Engineer at JL Audio?

That Fathom® f112v2-GLOSS 12 inch must be one heck of a subwoofer at $3700!

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post #45698 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 01:39 PM
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Okay, I'm officially very jealous of you guys with your HT on a suspended floor instead of concrete. Last night I was watching the movie "Stitch" which has some occasional bass moments and when those moments hit the S1801 was vibrating the couch like it had Crowsons under it. Suspended floors are sooooo much better than concrete floors for providing the full effect of Bass.
True but you get the best of both worlds in your basement set-up. Bass tends to sound tighter/cleaner on concrete and your Crowsons give you that suspended floor feeling.
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post #45699 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 01:46 PM
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Watched the Meg last night. I had the MV at -8 because I thought the overall sound was weak, bass had some moments but I thought it was lacking also. The movie itself well if you can watch it without renting/paying for it and absolutely have nothing better to do with your time then go ahead and watch it.



Maybe the Bluray version of the movie may sound better.

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post #45700 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 02:28 PM
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Watched the Meg last night. I had the MV at -8 because I thought the overall sound was weak, bass had some moments but I that it was lacking also. The movie itself well if you can watch it without renting/paying for it and absolutely have nothing better to do with your time then go ahead and watch it.



Maybe the Bluray version of the movie may sound better.
That is disappointing, how did you watch it?

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post #45701 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 02:33 PM
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Currently jamming “child in time” by deep purple on tidal with DAC at -5mv. Love this song but haven’t played it since I got my dragonfly red dac. I literally have chills. They just don’t make music like they use to...




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post #45702 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 02:56 PM
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That is disappointing, how did you watch it?
Yanked it down. The audio was DD+. I may get my hands on the DTS-HD or Atmos version and give it another watch at some point.

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post #45703 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 02:57 PM
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They just don’t make music like they use to...




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You can say that again.

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post #45704 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Watched the Meg last night. I had the MV at -8 because I thought the overall sound was weak, bass had some moments but I thought it was lacking also. The movie itself well if you can watch it without renting/paying for it and absolutely have nothing better to do with your time then go ahead and watch it.



Maybe the Bluray version of the movie may sound better.
Watching it on vudu right now. Looks great, sounds pretty sweet so far too with the atmos.
Did the deal where you get the instant digital and the 4k disc when released.
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post #45705 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 04:14 PM
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Watching it on vudu right now. Looks great, sounds pretty sweet so far too with the atmos.
Did the deal where you get the instant digital and the 4k disc when released.
I'm sure the higher bit rate of DD-Atmos will sound better than the DD+ version I watched.

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post #45706 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 04:27 PM
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Also, for anyone curious about acoustics and how measurements correlate to our own listening experiences this is the best 60 bucks you'll ever spend.



Given my trust in both your technical knowledge and lack of BS- I would buy that in a heart beat- except it was $44 a month ago.


For anyone that does not know- there is a plug in for firefox called keepa that puts an amazon price history chart right in your webpage. Awesome tool.


I'll wait a bit and see if the price drops back- a method that has worked countless times in the past.


Thanks for the heads up Tom.
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post #45707 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 08:52 PM
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You'd probably have $20k in pre-orders in this forum alone

Someone needs to start a list for the people that are serious. If there is enough interest, Tom will probably make it happen.
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post #45708 of 52027 Old 11-02-2018, 10:12 PM
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Someone needs to start a list for the people that are serious. If there is enough interest, Tom will probably make it happen.
Count me in.

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post #45709 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 03:31 AM
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I know I'm way behind here but I watched Ready Player One last night. Granted I Iistened at -12.5, which is a good bit louder than normal but holy crap! That's probably the most bass intense movie I've ever heard. The V3601 has never sounded better.
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post #45710 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 06:06 AM
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Given my trust in both your technical knowledge and lack of BS- I would buy that in a heart beat- except it was $44 a month ago.


For anyone that does not know- there is a plug in for firefox called keepa that puts an amazon price history chart right in your webpage. Awesome tool.


I'll wait a bit and see if the price drops back- a method that has worked countless times in the past.
That is a great plug in I use it all the time. Another great one is Honey, it will confirm is the item you are looking at is the best price available, many times the first price Amazon shows is not the best price. It even includes shipping and tax in it's calculation. It has saved me lots of money over the past few years!
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Are my subs “bottoming out”?

I’ve got dual 15Vs in a 1400 cu ft closed room. I recently picked up the Inception 4K disc, which has fantastic low end effects. But it’s sounding to me like, at -10dB and up, the subs are sort of getting limited or choked on the high volume, very low sequences, like when Saito’s fortress starts to come apart because of the Molotov cocktails in the dream above.

It feels like the effects are calling for more output at a lower frequency than my subs can produce, but I’m in a kind of disbelief that these subs, in my small, sealed room, would have that problem. What would the normal soundbar population hear??

Am I hearing something real or is this movie’s mix planting an idea in my head?
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post #45712 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 07:40 AM
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Are my subs “bottoming out”?

I’ve got dual 15Vs in a 1400 cu ft closed room. I recently picked up the Inception 4K disc, which has fantastic low end effects. But it’s sounding to me like, at -10dB and up, the subs are sort of getting limited or choked on the high volume, very low sequences, like when Saito’s fortress starts to come apart because of the Molotov cocktails in the dream above.

It feels like the effects are calling for more output at a lower frequency than my subs can produce, but I’m in a kind of disbelief that these subs, in my small, sealed room, would have that problem. What would the normal soundbar population hear??

Am I hearing something real or is this movie’s mix planting an idea in my head?

Hi,

You may be asking that question in the wrong place. I don't think you will find many people in the "normal" soundbar population around here to tell you what they hear in that movie.

You may very well be hearing something real, if it sounds as if your subs were struggling in that scene. But, low-frequencies can be deceptive. Sometimes, the frequencies that we think are the lowest, because they are so loud, really aren't. For instance, looking at a graph of the peak bass volumes in Inception, it appears that the loudest low-bass peaks are around 25Hz.

https://imgur.com/W6csm1u

That matters, because in a 1400^3 room, you will already be getting room gain at around 30Hz or so, but your strongest room gain will be occurring much lower than that. So, the room might not be helping you quite as much as you think it will at 25Hz, and the subwoofers may have to do most of the work themselves at that frequency. (And, you never know whether you might have a dip in frequency response in about the mid-20's that coincides with some extreme bass effects. Once you get to even lower frequencies, let's say around the low-20's in your room, the room modes won't affect the FR any more, and the bass will only be amplified by the room.)

Whether or not your subs actually were bottoming-out on that scene probably depends a lot on the combination of your listening volume and your subwoofer boost. I probably wouldn't be too concerned if that is the only time it happens. That might have been just the right frequency to trip your subs up a little. If you decide to watch that movie again, you might want to either back-off your MV by a couple of decibels, or back-off your subwoofer boost, when you approach that scene. It is possible to find the limits of most subs, with just the right content, at the right volume levels. But, if it doesn't happen very often, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 11-03-2018 at 08:16 AM.
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post #45713 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 07:55 AM
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Are my subs “bottoming out”?

I’ve got dual 15Vs in a 1400 cu ft closed room. I recently picked up the Inception 4K disc, which has fantastic low end effects. But it’s sounding to me like, at -10dB and up, the subs are sort of getting limited or choked on the high volume, very low sequences, like when Saito’s fortress starts to come apart because of the Molotov cocktails in the dream above.

It feels like the effects are calling for more output at a lower frequency than my subs can produce, but I’m in a kind of disbelief that these subs, in my small, sealed room, would have that problem. What would the normal soundbar population hear??

Am I hearing something real or is this movie’s mix planting an idea in my head?
As Mike stated, what are your AVR sub trims and how must sub boost have you added? What AVR are you using? Are you using DEQ in addition to sub boost? I can't believe that dual 15Vs would not pound on a 25hz frequency scene...
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post #45714 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 08:21 AM
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You shouldn't be able to bottom these subs out...you are probably clipping the signal from incorrect settings causing the subs to sound bad. dual 15v in a 1400^3 room should be pretty potent...at least reference level capable down to 16hz if setup correctly. I have 3 in a 2400^3 room and I can play the Pulse server scene at MV-0 running +6db hot and they don't even exhibit any port noise let alone bad sounds.
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post #45715 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 08:56 AM
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Someone needs to start a list for the people that are serious. If there is enough interest, Tom will probably make it happen.
I'm in for sure.

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post #45716 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 10:38 AM
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For those who are interested in low tuned ported subs, what would you use for demo material? I know the beginning of Live, Die, Repeat, How to Train your Dragon, and Lone Survivor have sub-20hz content, but are there many others?


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post #45717 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
For those who are interested in low tuned ported subs, what would you use for demo material? I know the beginning of Live, Die, Repeat, How to Train your Dragon, and Lone Survivor have sub-20hz content, but are there many others?


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You may want to check this thread out

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...cy-charts.html
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post #45718 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 11:56 AM
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You may want to check this thread out



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...cy-charts.html


Thanks. I subscribe to this thread. I was referring to scenes that would specifically benefit from a 10hz port tune.


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post #45719 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 12:07 PM
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As Mike stated, what are your AVR sub trims and how must sub boost have you added? What AVR are you using? Are you using DEQ in addition to sub boost? I can't believe that dual 15Vs would not pound on a 25hz frequency scene...


Dynamic EQ enabled on a Denon X4400h, reference curve, EQ defeated past 400hz using the Audyssey app.

Sub woofer volume adjustment at +2.5dB. 0.0dB channel level trim. Subwoofer gain on the back of the subs is around the 9:30 position.

It doesn’t seem to me that this should be too hot to play clean up to and beyond reference level in my space...

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post #45720 of 52027 Old 11-03-2018, 12:15 PM
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Hi,

You may be asking that question in the wrong place. I don't think you will find many people in the "normal" soundbar population around here to tell you what they hear in that movie.

Hah fair enough!

It doesn’t happen often, but it now makes me wonder if what I have been hearing in some scenes in Deepwater Horizon (like when the drill site starts to come apart) were caused by running out of headroom.

I wrote it off before but now that I’m hearing what I’m think I’m hearing with Inception, I’m concerned that my system isn’t doing what I planned for it to do when I chose the 15Vs over SB-2000s.

Based on consultations in this thread, I expected to have more power with dual 15Vs than I would ever need in this space!

If I need dual 1801s in my 1400^3 room, then I feel like something must be seriously amiss

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