Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1548 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #46411 of 50382 Old 01-13-2019, 01:57 PM
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If any S3601's show up in the outlet I may just have to add a third and stack
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post #46412 of 50382 Old 01-13-2019, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
If any S3601's show up in the outlet I may just have to add a third and stack
You might as well just ask Tom to put the next one that becomes available aside without even being listed, and save the stress of constant clicking on refresh

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post #46413 of 50382 Old 01-13-2019, 02:38 PM
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You might as well just ask Tom to put the next one that becomes available aside without even being listed, and save the stress of constant clicking on refresh

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This is true! Hey Tom! Keep me posted! Lol
I'm also saving up for the new Benq ht3550 4k pj that's coming out soon too. Woot!
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post #46414 of 50382 Old 01-13-2019, 03:25 PM
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My understanding is a vertical array can help take care of vertical room modes.

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Yes I know hence why I said that vertical could have a different response then horizontal placement.
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post #46415 of 50382 Old 01-13-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
If any S3601's show up in the outlet I may just have to add a third and stack

Yeah I want one Vnf


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post #46416 of 50382 Old 01-13-2019, 06:07 PM
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[quote=flat4;57431236]
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

So a smoothing of the response would be one other little advantage. So might just be giving up a hair of extension versus S7201? You would be able to do this as a powered units and slave units?

Yes he could have fit one more!

You really are the ultimate sub addict enabler Tom
You'll minimize the floor to ceiling mode/cancellations a good bit. I'm not sure I'd call it a "little" but each room and scenario will benefit differently.

Are you talking about 3 S3611 stacked versus one S7201?

5-8hz for the s7201 and 10-12hz for the S3611. Smoother FR for the stack.

No plans for a master/slave option on any products right now.

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post #46417 of 50382 Old 01-14-2019, 11:14 AM
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[quote=Tom Vodhanel;57433918]
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Originally Posted by flat4 View Post

You'll minimize the floor to ceiling mode/cancellations a good bit. I'm not sure I'd call it a "little" but each room and scenario will benefit differently.

Are you talking about 3 S3611 stacked versus one S7201?

5-8hz for the s7201 and 10-12hz for the S3611. Smoother FR for the stack.

No plans for a master/slave option on any products right now.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Well, since no master/slave is in the works two s7201's it will be!
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post #46418 of 50382 Old 01-18-2019, 08:24 PM
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ok you psa guys getting slack now.
i had to go to the second page tonight to find you.
you know us svs lurkers are too lazy to hunt around that much .

whats the deal ?
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post #46419 of 50382 Old 01-18-2019, 08:26 PM
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It’s hard to keep up with, when the thread is moving this fast!!!


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post #46420 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 05:13 AM
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To anybody who is considering sealed subs in an open room, let me just tell you that the total area pressurized by my subs, even though two rooms are connected by a hallway, is 6500 cu ft. The subs pound the **** out of my chair and couch which are on a suspended floor 7 feet away. I’ve owned ported subs in the past and while they are a bit higher spl on a few movie scenes, the sealed subs are here to stay! On paper it seems like it shouldn’t work but it sounds better by far than my two ported subs did downstairs in a 2000 cu foot room on concrete floors. By better, I mean not just more tactile response because of the suspended floor, but more accurate as well.To anybody who is considering buying either type, but the sealed do very well and can take a beating. My Klipsch rp 280 Cut out far before they do :-)


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post #46421 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 06:25 AM
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My Klipsch rp 280 Cut out far before they do :-)


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My ears (and subwoofers) cut out before my Klipsch 280f do, but I have external amplification for them.

Spoiler!
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post #46422 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
My ears (and subwoofers) cut out before my Klipsch 280f do, but I have external amplification for them.


I’m gonna throw a crown 1502 on them here shortly


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post #46423 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 09:31 AM
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I’m gonna throw a crown 1502 on them here shortly


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Consider the MTM210 towers perhaps?

I think you'd find them to be quite an upgrade across the board with sensitivity just one huge benefit. You'd be at 98dB versus 92dB so literally a 1/4 of the power(a bit less than 1/4 in reality) needed to reach the same output levels. Maybe 45-50 watts versus 240-250 watts for example. Factor in all of the thermal compression that goes with high wattage too. Crossovers lose their tolerances. Voice coils heat up and shift all the (electrical) t/s. None of this is good for maintaining sound quality.

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post #46424 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Consider the MTM210 towers perhaps?



I think you'd find them to be quite an upgrade across the board with sensitivity just one huge benefit. You'd be at 98dB versus 92dB so literally a 1/4 of the power(a bit less than 1/4 in reality) needed to reach the same output levels. Maybe 45-50 watts versus 240-250 watts for example. Factor in all of the thermal compression that goes with high wattage too. Crossovers lose their tolerances. Voice coils heat up and shift all the (electrical) t/s. None of this is good for maintaining sound quality.



Tom V.

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I certainly have looked at those along with the center channel. They are on my shortlist


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post #46425 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Consider the MTM210 towers perhaps?



I think you'd find them to be quite an upgrade across the board with sensitivity just one huge benefit. You'd be at 98dB versus 92dB so literally a 1/4 of the power(a bit less than 1/4 in reality) needed to reach the same output levels. Maybe 45-50 watts versus 240-250 watts for example. Factor in all of the thermal compression that goes with high wattage too. Crossovers lose their tolerances. Voice coils heat up and shift all the (electrical) t/s. None of this is good for maintaining sound quality.



Tom V.

Power Sound Audio


Totally endorse this move David. When I compared these to the rp 280 I found the PSA to be cleaner with a better soundstage. They play at high levels without any ear fatigue. I doubt you could find a speaker of this quality at this price point.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #46426 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 12:26 PM
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Now you have to get them Dave!! Lol
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post #46427 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 01:14 PM
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You guys are worse than the local drug dealer


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post #46428 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 01:15 PM
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And all seriousness, I would make somebody a hell of a deal for two klipsch RP 280s and RP 450 center :-) Money goes towards these new PSA speakers


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post #46429 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 06:18 PM
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And all seriousness, I would make somebody a hell of a deal for two klipsch RP 280s and RP 450 center :-) Money goes towards these new PSA speakers


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You know you really want them.

Sources: Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra, Fire TV
Processor and Amps: Emotiva XMC-1, XPA-DR2, XPA-5
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post #46430 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 06:37 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Well all, the psa will have to wait till next year. I just bought a crown xls 1502 for my mains and a crown xls 1002 for my center


Will be 300 x 2 going to mains and 700 x1 to center. Obviously I won’t come close to taxing those amps with fairly efficient klipsxh speakers.

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post #46431 of 50382 Old 01-19-2019, 11:22 PM
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just wondering if there is any "warm up" time needed for subs (or speakers) before you show off your system shaking the house at reference levels to your friends? or is it good to go from a cold start?
just want to make sure im not going to do any damage to my subs by trying to impress people lol

TV: LG OLED 65inch C7 | Bluray Player: OPPO UDP-203
A/V Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2085 | Surge Protector: THOR PS10
Speakers - Front: Klipsch RP-160M | Center: Klipsch RP-450C | Side and Rear Surrounds: Klipsch RP-250S | Subs: Dual PSA S3600i
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post #46432 of 50382 Old 01-20-2019, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Karami View Post
just wondering if there is any "warm up" time needed for subs (or speakers) before you show off your system shaking the house at reference levels to your friends? or is it good to go from a cold start?

just want to make sure im not going to do any damage to my subs by trying to impress people lol


Nope. Let it rip


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post #46433 of 50382 Old 01-20-2019, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
Well all, the psa will have to wait till next year. I just bought a crown xls 1502 for my mains and a crown xls 1002 for my center


Will be 300 x 2 going to mains and 700 x1 to center. Obviously I won’t come close to taxing those amps with fairly efficient klipsxh speakers.

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The 1002 doesn't have as good a signal to noise ratio as the other Crown amps, if you notice a background hiss on your center speaker, that will be why.
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post #46434 of 50382 Old 01-20-2019, 04:58 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
The 1002 doesn't have as good a signal to noise ratio as the other Crown amps, if you notice a background hiss on your center speaker, that will be why.


How bad are we talking here? I would think it would be almost unnoticeable. I know that efficient speakers can be amped up what background Hiss by an external power amp but it shouldn’t be anything that’s noticeable when the movie is playing? I don’t ever use the center for music

I guess I didn’t realize that when I ordered it. I did look at the s/n of the 1502 And I assume the other one was the same. I guess that’s what I get.

I was able to cancel on Amazon though so I’m gonna make sure if I’m spending the money I’m gonna get the better one.


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post #46435 of 50382 Old 01-20-2019, 05:46 AM
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How bad are we talking here? I would think it would be almost unnoticeable. I know that efficient speakers can be amped up what background Hiss by an external power amp but it shouldn’t be anything that’s noticeable when the movie is playing? I don’t ever use the center for music

I guess I didn’t realize that when I ordered it. I did look at the s/n of the 1502 And I assume the other one was the same. I guess that’s what I get.

I was able to cancel on Amazon though so I’m gonna make sure if I’m spending the money I’m gonna get the better one.


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Hi Dave,

We all have to use our own judgment and make our own decisions. But, if you were able to cancel your order for the external amps, I might take the opportunity to rethink what you are doing. Adding external amplification is not nearly as effective as having speakers which can natively play high volumes with normal amplification. And, sound quality, versus listening fatigue, is a function of more than just speaker sensitivity and having sufficient amplification, anyway.

In a music system, especially, I believe that the speakers are by far the most important, and the most fundamental building block--more so even than they would be in an HT system. They play the majority of the frequency range, while the subwoofers play only a small part of it. And, we are all probably more sensitive to sound quality when we are just listening to music, than we are when more of our senses are engaged while watching a movie.

I haven't personally experienced the PSA speakers, but I have read enough owner testimonials to believe that they would offer a substantial upgrade to your current Klipsch speakers. According to many Klipsch owners, those speakers can lose their composure and sound harsh at high volume levels, and as noted in the first paragraph, I'm not sure that more amplification will really cure that.

Remember also that doubling your amplification will only give you 3db more headroom. Tripling it will give you 4.5db more, from your starting point. I'm just not sure that this is the best solution. I saw you jump through a lot of hoops to get to the subwoofer system you wanted, but I think you believe it was worth it in the final result. I would advise you to do the same thing now with your speakers.

It would take some patience, and the speakers might be more expensive than the external amplifiers. But, I believe that the long-term result would be worth the trouble. The speakers really are the most important building block for music. And, if you buy external amplifiers now, and add the PSA speakers later, you will have wasted your money, because the PSA speakers won't require the external amplification. They will be very efficient, at high volumes, with normal amplification. And, they should have better sound quality at any volume level. I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty to advise you on this.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #46436 of 50382 Old 01-20-2019, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
How bad are we talking here? I would think it would be almost unnoticeable. I know that efficient speakers can be amped up what background Hiss by an external power amp but it shouldn’t be anything that’s noticeable when the movie is playing? I don’t ever use the center for music

I guess I didn’t realize that when I ordered it. I did look at the s/n of the 1502 And I assume the other one was the same. I guess that’s what I get.

I was able to cancel on Amazon though so I’m gonna make sure if I’m spending the money I’m gonna get the better one.


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It's just something I've seen mentioned on AVS before, more than once, that high efficiency speakers will have a slight background hiss with it. It's surely a better S/N ratio than anything I grew up with in the seventies.
It's not personal experience, I just wanted you to be aware of a potential issue.

ETA:
Not to disagree with Mike, but my take is as long as you can return the amp, I would go ahead and try it, just to see. The long term goal would probably be to get more capable speakers like the PSA ones.
It is quite possible that the problems you are having might be helped by a more powerful amp, as you are probably playing beyond the capability of your AVR. I know with my previous setup, the amps of my AVR gave out before my speakers or ears. That was a receiver with 150 wpc, and speakers that were about 3 db less sensitive.
I listen quite loudly at times, and it seems that my ears give out before the speakers do. It's hard to tell. I can't tell if it's me, my speakers or my amp(300 wpc) falling apart, but it's dangerously loud in any case.

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post #46437 of 50382 Old 01-20-2019, 06:25 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
It's just something I've seen mentioned on AVS before, more than once, that high efficiency speakers will have a slight background hiss with it. It's surely a better S/N ratio than anything I grew up with in the seventies.

It's not personal experience, I just wanted you to be aware of a potential issue.



ETA:

Not to disagree with Mike, but my take is as long as you can return the amp, I would go ahead and try it, just to see. The long term goal would probably be to get more capable speakers like the PSA ones.

It is quite possible that the problems you are having might be helped by a more powerful amp, as you are probably playing beyond the capability of your AVR. I know with my previous setup, the amps of my AVR gave out before my speakers or ears. That was a receiver with 150 wpc, and speakers that were about 3 db less sensitive.

I listen quite loudly at times, and it seems that my ears give out before the speakers do. It's hard to tell. I can't tell if it's me, my speakers or my amp(300 wpc) falling apart, but it's dangerously loud in any case.


Mike, this is the first time I have to disagree with you. My goal is to upgrade the speakers over the next year or so. They sound pretty good until they really cranked up and then you can see that they lose some of their abilities. I’m still not sure if that’s from the AVR being not powerful enough or are the physicals speaker characteristics. Either way, I would like to upgrade to some electrostatics or maybe some PSA speakers next year and then I would have the amplifier power to do that. Plus I’m a little OCD and like the fact that I have that much power in reserve even thoughI will never use it all. I bought these amplifiers trying to be forward thinking. I was able to cancel my order for the other amp so I’m gonna just get one for the left and right channels and see if I really notice a difference and if I do then I will re-order the same amp for center channel. My room is highly treated now so the speakers do sound pretty amazing and I do think it’s just the AVR pushing its potential, I’m going to eliminate that from the equation :-)
Edit. I also would love to see how efficient these klipsxh speakers really are, I know it’s been debated and discussed full circle but I just can’t believe they are 96 or 98 dB efficiency

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post #46438 of 50382 Old 01-20-2019, 06:26 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
Mike, this is the first time I have to disagree with you. My goal is to upgrade the speakers over the next year or so. They sound pretty good until they really cranked up and then you can see that they lose some of their abilities. I’m still not sure if that’s from the AVR being not powerful enough or are the physicals speaker characteristics. Either way, I would like to upgrade to some electrostatics or maybe some PSA speakers next year and then I would have the amplifier power to do that. Plus I’m a little OCD and like the fact that I have that much power in reserve even thoughI will never use it all. I bought these amplifiers trying to be forward thinking. I was able to cancel my order for the other amp so I’m gonna just get one for the left and right channels and see if I really notice a difference and if I do then I will re-order the same amp for center channel. My room is highly treated now so the speakers do sound pretty amazing and I do think it’s just the AVR pushing its potential, I’m going to eliminate that from the equation :-)


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This is been a really fun journey, I keep learning new stuff every day. The PSA speakers are on my shortlist of things but I’m not gonna lie, so are the Sierra towers or electrostatics. I need to do more research on those but I know Tom makes a good product and he is very close :-) now if only we can get Tom to offer some hardwood veneers on those front speakers :-)
Edit: I was just thinking, single-handedly the biggest improvement I’ve made to my system is adding room treatments. The difference is staggering. I use all GIK acoustics and their stuff is pretty good although a little bit on the expensive side but I feel like it took my thousand dollar pair of speakers and made them sound a whole lot more expensive :-) my only complaint is that I lose a little bit of the sound quality that they have at lower volumes when I crank them up. I think that’s where I heavy duty or speaker like the PSA will be the right solution. I have no wife at home so I can crank the hell out of my system when the kids are gone. Are usually have it on for hours a day when I’m Messing around the house.

The biggest thing I noticed is that my normal listing volume of -6 sounds much more quiet and refined after adding gik 244 panels And the corner bass traps stacked ceiling to floor. I was just commenting To myself this morning how the low-end has much more clarity and I was listening to the song dope show by Marilyn Manson. That is one song that is mixed very well and you can crank the heck out of it.

Anyways, I’m just rambling on as I’m driving and going skiing today. We got 18 inches of snow last night so the conditions should be epic. I’m already in PSA withdrawal as my Bose system in my Yukon just isn’t cutting it
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Last edited by David Charles; 01-20-2019 at 06:32 AM.
David Charles is offline  
post #46439 of 50382 Old 01-20-2019, 08:14 AM
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If you are looking for external amps for your front speakers perhaps consider the Behringer A500. Passive cooling (no fans), RCA and XLR inputs, plenty of power for PSA speakers and only $200. I run three in bridged config for front speakers, including for my 210C.

What I would suggest is buy one, see if you like it, then get another two if you do, or return it to Amazon if you don't.

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post #46440 of 50382 Old 01-20-2019, 10:01 AM
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Tom, you are talking about your speakers. Any thoughts of a future Center Channel that would sound as good by being wider and shorter? An example with my setup I have an entertainment center with my TV mounted on a back rail I can raise but then don't like the viewing angle. With the viewing angle I like I only have 8" of height for a enter channel but 48" or so width and 18" or so of depth. Is there more of a market than my lonely self for wide rather than taller good center channels?

TV: LG OLED 65B7A, Receiver: Marantz SR-6012, Blu-Ray Player: LG UBK90, Fronts: JBL S312, Center: JBL S-Center, Surrounds: JBL S38, Top: Yamaha NS-AW1, Subwoofer: 2 PSA S3000i and one PSA XS-30se--- 5.3.4 setup
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/col...&action=hybrid
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