Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1575 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 66793Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #47221 of 53038 Old 03-13-2019, 06:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
climber07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,706
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Liked: 2597
Oh boy! Mortal Engines is starting out strong with the bass.

Power Sound Audio S7201 Quad 18" 4000W Sealed Subwoofer - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
climber07 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #47222 of 53038 Old 03-13-2019, 07:06 PM
Member
 
krauley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
Oh boy! Mortal Engines is starting out strong with the bass.
Just watched the redbox rental last night, it was actually a very entertaining movie. and Yes some bass. hope you enjoy it.

Lg G6
Oppo 203, Ps4Pro
Emotiva, XMC-1 V3, Xpa-2, Xpa-5
PSA V1801
Airmotiv T2(front), C2(Center), T1(surrounds), E1(surround backs)
krauley is offline  
post #47223 of 53038 Old 03-13-2019, 08:50 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 2
That won’t be to powerful? Looking for solid sound at medium levels
scottiemon likes this.
Phiggs is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #47224 of 53038 Old 03-13-2019, 09:31 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phiggs View Post
That won’t be to powerful? Looking for solid sound at medium levels
Not sure what sub you are coming from but I had an old 15 year old clunker sub and have been reading and researching everything I could about subs to figure out what to buy, brand, size, duals, quads (the more you read this site the higher and bigger you go... lol) I ended up going with the V1510DF you mention in your post based great product performance, reviews, forum feedback and PSA's renowned service. (Tom is amazing to deal with)

My big concern I think was similar to yours, I was worried these monster subs would be to much. But there is something about a quality sub I guess or at least a PSA sub. They are powerful but they are also so smooth and clean, I guess is the best way to put it. The first movie I watched with my wife I actually expected to be told I am nuts but she said nothing. It wasnt overwhelming just added to the experience and made it better.
My 12 year old son said "Dad why did we keep that little sub for so long"


You have control over how much you want out of these subs and can tweak that to your liking but I find I keep pushing them higher and then never sound overwhelming just make everything sound better. This is not your high school car stereo subwoofer.

In your case you have a bigger room than mine so I have no doubt you could go to V1811(s)

Hope that helps a bit in your decision. You cant go wrong with the V1510DF for sure but as most will say on her go with the biggest you can fit/afford/justify and you can always add another later (or 4 based on this thread )
Younger38 is offline  
post #47225 of 53038 Old 03-13-2019, 11:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
FattyMcButterPants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,660
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1061 Post(s)
Liked: 1334
Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I don't believe what folks "Think" they are hearing is the port tune difference...imo it's a difference in frequency response and harmonics.

I’ve been wondering myself how these correlations are being made. I get that everyone values what they hear in room, but we are talking about applying those impressions to the population of all subwoofers.

Warning: math nerd inbound.

Statistically speaking, do we really have enough data to make definitive claims one way or another? Experts generally agree that with a single variable problem, 10-20 measurements are required to make any sort of realistic conclusion. How many variables are applicable in this situation? Do we even know? My guess is we would need hundreds of data points with many more controlled factors than we have now to approach a consensus.

Side note: I think this type of stuff is often why Tom posts the way he does. He is probably the only one here that has done enough measurements to claim any sort of statistical significance on his viewpoint.

Anyways, food for thought I guess. I haven’t thought about this nearly as much as you guys, so feel free to prove me wrong.

Edit: I re-read the above and realized it could be perceived as negative/trolling. That was not my intent at all, my bad.

I deeply enjoy the conversation, and the early results do look promising. I just wonder if it’s really as sure a thing as some are advertising.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by FattyMcButterPants; 03-14-2019 at 07:35 AM.
FattyMcButterPants is offline  
post #47226 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 08:10 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,414
Mentioned: 195 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 341 Post(s)
Liked: 9736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I think the association of higher port tunes and boomier subs has lead you to a conclusion which may not accurate. Port tune is not what makes a sub boomy or not IMO (it can be a factor in the whole design). I believe you unintentionally made a case for lower-tuned subs. I am not a sub designer by any means but here is my understanding:

The port in a bass-reflex system is contributing to the output closer to a full octave (than half) above tune and maybe ⅓ octave below. Above this range the system operates as an acoustic suspension (sealed). No air should escape the port. Lowering the tuning frequency not only increases the ULF efficiency (sacrificing some efficiency 1-2 octaves above). It also increases the range in which the driver is operating in "sealed mode". I find this desireable as I prefer sealed designs in most cases.

I.E. if we choose 20Hz as the lower threshold of audibility, then a 10Hz tune makes perfect sense. 25Hz is actually much more audible than 20Hz (16Hz is barely audible to me). 12.5Hz is a tune which Rythmik has been offering for almost 10 years now. I don't find it a stretch to say that the FV15HP has been the standard of 15" ported subs and still is. Their recent port improvement has mitigating the chuffing issue in single port mode.

In regards to boominess I have been using Energy S8.3 (same as the Mirage Omni S8) subwoofers for years (office, exercise room, etc.). The tune is ~30Hz and they are far from boomy. I have dual Acoustic Research FPS-10's under the bed in our master BR. Their tune is ~40Hz and they aren't boomy (by my standards at least). I have a few TurboSound PA subs tuned closer to 50Hz. They are fairly boomy inside. However they are designed for large open spaces, not small rooms.

Maybe not to your satisfaction, but I believe we have proven that there is more to it than amplitude response and compression sweeps. The PSA V1801s (and likely the V36xx) was far more suitable in @imureh's room than the JTR Caps 1400 & 2400ULF (which he documented very well).
@basshead81 what first-hand experience do you have with low-tuned subs? Are you willing to host a GTG (the more ears the better)? We can arrange for a couple of low-tuned subs to test. The JTR 2400 and Rythmik FV15 or FV18 are quite manageable in size. You would then be able to control all of the variables and test your hypotheses. I'd be very interested to participate and see what differences are actually detected blind (I do believe that psychoacoustics often affects our perceptions). What do you say? (No rush, anytime in 2019 would do)
The point to all of this was that I believe the V3611 is much better down low then a select few give it credit for. I am not discrediting the fact that guys are noticing a difference with lower tuned subs. I am not saying opting for a lower tune is a waste of time. Ray has actually sparked my interest on lower tuning after his GTG. We have exchanged several Emails about the subject. You have been gone a long time and if you had been around to be apart of this recent push for lower tuned subs discussion, you would see I am in favor of it. So part of the issue is you are taking my posts out of context because you do not really understand my position on the topic from prior to discussion. So even though I am in favor of it, I am also challenging for a better explanation of what those are hearing. A GTG would be good, but that is not something I am interested in hosting. If someone else were fairly local, I would be interested in attending.
mthomas47 and Hopinater like this.
basshead81 is offline  
post #47227 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 08:37 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Thank you for the response. I just bought Definitive Mythos STL Towers and they are fantastic. Funny as I read here, I guess once you get the bug for great sound it hard to cut corners. I am coming from a 12 inch VRP Velodyne ported about 15 years old and still going strong, butttttttt I know anything here I am discussing would be a huge step up. Just don’t won’t to over engineer cost to performance.

Thanks for taking the time to respond on the v1510df.... !!!!!!
Younger38 likes this.
Phiggs is offline  
post #47228 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 09:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
drh3b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2108 Post(s)
Liked: 4261
A review of the s1510df, for anyone interested. If someone already posted it, my apologies.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...woofer-review/
SuperFist likes this.
drh3b is offline  
post #47229 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 09:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,875
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3590 Post(s)
Liked: 11447
You know what's funny about all this talk of differently tuned subs? It reveals the different types of people out there. For instance, the science and math oriented guys (engineer backgrounds and such) are all about measurements and interpreting the graphs etc. They're wired to understand how everything works and want to know why one type of sub sounds different than another in the same location etc. And I agree with them, it is important so I'm happy they are around to do all that work and then explain it to us.

But you know what I care about? I care about how it sounds in my room! I'm interested in how this stuff works to some degree but only in so far as it helps me refine and understand my personal preferences. All I truly care about is choosing the right subwoofer based on how it matches up to the sound I'm looking for. I'm assuming I'm not the only one like this.

Anyway... I don't know why the low tuned subwoofers sound the way they do but I know I like it!

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Last edited by Hopinater; 03-14-2019 at 09:33 AM.
Hopinater is online now  
post #47230 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 09:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,799
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2998 Post(s)
Liked: 3851
Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
You know what's funny about all this talk of differently tuned subs? It reveals the different types of people out there. For instance, the science and math oriented guys (engineer backgrounds and such) are all about measurements and interpreting the graphs etc. They're wired to understand how everything works and want to know why one subs sounds different than another in the same location etc. And I agree with them, it is important so I'm happy they are around to do all that work.



But you know what I care about? I care about how it sounds in my room! I'm interested in how this stuff works to some degree but only in so far as it helps me refine and understand my personal preferences. All I truly care about is choosing the right subwoofer based on how it matches up to the sound I'm looking for. I don't know why the low tuned subwoofers sound the way they do but I know I like it!

Bingo! If all the math adds up and all the graphs are as good as they can be but you don’t like how it sounds then it’s all for nothing. Yes it can help understand why you may be hearing what you are but at the end of the day, a ****ty graph with a sound I like would make me happy. Now luckily for me they both work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD

Last edited by imureh; 03-14-2019 at 10:56 AM.
imureh is online now  
post #47231 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 09:54 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,368
Mentioned: 356 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5557 Post(s)
Liked: 10788
^^^

There are a couple of ideas that I would like to add to the discussion of lower port tunes. First, I don't believe that we hear most sounds in isolation. We hear deeper/louder bass tones in relation to mid-bass tones, and vice-versa. If the relative proportion of low-bass to mid-bass SPL changes, we may be able to hear a difference in the overall tonal quality of the sound. That is one reason why some people deliberately create low-bass house curves.

A subwoofer with a lower port tune almost certainly has a relatively higher proportion of low-bass to mid-bass, for reasons that were explained earlier. There is no free lunch! Lower-tuned subwoofers necessarily trade-away some mid-bass SPL in exchange for more low-bass SPL. That trade-off may be either a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the individual, and also on his listening habits (movies with strong LFE content, versus acoustic music, for instance), but to many it is a perceptible thing.

The second component to the reason that some people may hear differences in the tonal quality of low-tuned ported subs has to do with the way we hear low-frequencies. Below 30Hz, and increasingly below 25Hz, and then even more below 20Hz, we may be feeling low-frequency tactile sensations almost inextricably with the low-frequency sounds we are hearing. As frequencies go lower, it may become more-and-more difficult to separate what we hear from what we feel. That is particularly true with complex sounds, each consisting of both fundamentals, and harmonics of those fundamentals.

So, separating what we actually hear from what we feel below, let's say 25Hz and lower, can be very difficult. And, ported subs produce not only more SPL within about an octave of their port tune, they also produce relatively more particle velocity and corresponding tactile response (TR). All subwoofers produce particle velocity (literally the movement of air particles themselves, as opposed to the movement of bass frequencies through the air, which we define as SPL) due to the forward movement of the driver. More excursion equals more air movement and more TR.

Low-tuned ported subwoofers tend to have drivers with stronger excursion capabilities, and they also have ports which are moving more air at lower frequencies. That movement of air through the ports also contributes to increased particle velocity. And, that particle velocity is highest as the frequencies approach the port tune of a subwoofer. So, a low-tuned ported subwoofer is not only going to have proportionally more SPL at low-frequencies, than a higher tuned sub, it is also going to be producing proportionally more low-frequency TR than a higher tuned sub. And, as noted, below about 25Hz, and especially below 20Hz, most of us will have a lot of difficulty separating the hearing sensation from the feeling sensation. We will just perceive the combined sensation of having more low-bass.

I think that the above is a reasonable explanation for the differences that people experience with lower tuned subwoofers. Some people like that experience and some don't. Hop's father, for instance, didn't particularly like it, compared to a higher tuned subwoofer. But, the idea that subwoofers which go lower sound--well, lower--is a pretty logical one.

It's true with speakers too, as anyone who has ever upgraded to larger speakers, with deeper capabilities, already knows. The larger speakers, with a lower frequency response, have a relatively deeper tone, because the proportion of higher bass frequencies to lower bass frequencies has changed. And our ears can detect that change in proportion. So, I believe that what most people "hear" with lower tuned subwoofers is a change in the relative proportion of low-bass to mid-bass, combined with an increase in low-frequency TR.

The increased TR would mainly be perceptible with movies, or music with strong low-bass effects, because some increased excursion and port wind might be required to produce more noticeable low-bass TR. But, the slightly deeper tone might be perceived by some people, even at more normal bass volumes, and for more normal content. I think a lot of that would depend on how much people were boosting their subwoofers for whatever type of listening material we were considering.

FWIW, I think that there is a strong YMMV component to this whole issue of what we hear and feel, and what we like when we hear and feel whatever it is we do. I don't think that our perceptions are identical, and I don't think that our preferences regarding those perceptions are identical either.

Regards,
Mike
zeuspaul, toddct and Hopinater like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is online now  
post #47232 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 10:26 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,744
Mentioned: 253 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5659 Post(s)
Liked: 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I’ve been wondering myself how these correlations are being made. I get that everyone values what they hear in room, but we are talking about applying those impressions to the population of all subwoofers.

Warning: math nerd inbound.

Statistically speaking, do we really have enough data to make definitive claims one way or another? Experts generally agree that with a single variable problem, 10-20 measurements are required to make any sort of realistic conclusion. How many variables are applicable in this situation? Do we even know? My guess is we would need hundreds of data points with many more controlled factors than we have now to approach a consensus.
Most definitely! If you've read my post in the sub comparison thread you will see that is exactly my goal. I do believe some conclusions may have been jumped to. All hypothesis must be tested.

Math nerd? I am guilty
(B.S. Applied Mathematics, B.S.E. EE)
Marc Alexander is online now  
post #47233 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 10:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ratbuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,179
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 873 Post(s)
Liked: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
A review of the s1510df, for anyone interested. If someone already posted it, my apologies.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...woofer-review/
A few times, he says things like 'careful, too loud/too much EQ and you can damage your sub' - I've never worried about this, assuming my PSA subs have nanny programming in the DSP to prevent damage from reckless use. Is that not correct?
ratbuddy is offline  
post #47234 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 10:45 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,744
Mentioned: 253 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5659 Post(s)
Liked: 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The point to all of this was that I believe the V3611 is much better down low then a select few give it credit for.
Agreed. Headroom is still the name of the game. With increased headroom comes the ability to shape the in-room response. Most if not all REQs feature the ability to edit the target curve. Even for older versions (Audyssey for example) the RSC knob can be used to accomplish the same.
ahblaza likes this.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 03-14-2019 at 10:50 AM.
Marc Alexander is online now  
post #47235 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 10:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
drh3b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 3,901
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2108 Post(s)
Liked: 4261
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
A few times, he says things like 'careful, too loud/too much EQ and you can damage your sub' - I've never worried about this, assuming my PSA subs have nanny programming in the DSP to prevent damage from reckless use. Is that not correct?
I think that as long as you aren't playing extended sine wave type stuff, you are correct. I abused the hell out of my previous sVs subs, and they are fine(played music with thumpy bass, watched the overload light blink) I would assume Tom brought that dsp programming philosophy with him when he started PSA.

Last edited by drh3b; 03-14-2019 at 11:04 AM.
drh3b is offline  
post #47236 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 10:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 319 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3680 Post(s)
Liked: 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^
Low-tuned ported subwoofers tend to have drivers with stronger excursion capabilities...
Not true.

If I have to guess, the PSA 18" driver's X-max is closer to the Rythmik 18" driver's 20mm. The FV18 is tuned lower so it has a larger ratio of (port length / port area), and this in turn increases its cabinet size. Just in case you don't know, the FV18 is larger than the Cap 2400.

Therefore, I believe a low tuned sub with high output @ ULF requires at least one of the following, the more the merrier...

a) higher driver excursion.
b) larger cabinet.
c) more power (W).

Let's compare the Cap 118HT, the FV18, and the V1811. The driver excursion for all 3 are similar. By design, the V1811 has the smallest cabinet due to the highest port tune. As a result, it has the lowest ULF output.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 03-14-2019 at 11:01 AM.
chucky7 is online now  
post #47237 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:11 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,368
Mentioned: 356 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5557 Post(s)
Liked: 10788
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Not true.

If I have to guess, the PSA 18" driver's X-max is closer to the Rythmik 18" driver's 20mm. The FV18 is tuned lower so it has a larger ratio of (port length / port area), and this in turn increases its cabinet size. Just in case you don't know, the FV18 is larger than the Cap 2400.

Therefore, I believe a low tuned sub with high output @ ULF requires at least one of the following, the more the merrier...

a) higher driver excursion.
b) larger cabinet per driver.
c) high power per driver.

Let's compare the Cap 118HT, the FV18, and the V1811. The driver excursion for all 3 are similar. By design, the V1811 has the smallest cabinet. As a result, it has the lowest ULF output.

Not true is a little too emphatic. I deliberately used the phrase "tend to have" because I was thinking of the Rythmik ported subs when I wrote it. Although they may have low-port tunes, they are deliberately excursion-limited by their servo-mechanisms. And, that relatively less driver excursion is likely to be one factor in them having less low-frequency TR than the low-tuned JTR subs, for instance. It's more complicated than just a), b), c).

Cabinet volume is a factor in a subwoofer's ability to go low to start with, but it is only indirectly a factor in producing low-bass TR. Low-bass TR, according to extensive Vibsensor Accelerometer testing, on several threads, is directly related to particle velocity, which as noted above, involves the external displacement of air. That is mainly driver excursion and port wind. A larger cabinet may allow for the potential for greater amounts of port wind, but it's only a potential until the particular subwoofer pushes more air out through the ports, and I believe that reducing driver excursion limits port wind as well.
Marc Alexander and ahblaza like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 03-14-2019 at 11:15 AM.
mthomas47 is online now  
post #47238 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 319 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3680 Post(s)
Liked: 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Not true is a little too emphatic. I deliberately used the phrase "tend to have" because I was thinking of the Rythmik ported subs when I wrote it. Although they may have low-port tunes, they are deliberately excursion-limited by their servo-mechanisms. And, that relatively less driver excursion is likely to be one factor in them having less low-frequency TR than the low-tuned JTR subs, for instance. It's more complicated than just a), b), c).

Cabinet volume is a factor in a subwoofer's ability to go low to start with, but it is only indirectly a factor in producing low-bass TR. Low-bass TR, according to extensive Vibsensor Accelerometer testing, on several threads, is directly related to particle velocity, which as noted above, involves the external displacement of air. That is mainly driver excursion and port wind. A larger cabinet may allow for the potential for greater amounts of port wind, but it's only a potential until the particular subwoofer pushes more air out through the ports, and I believe that reducing driver excursion limits port wind as well.
If you are talking about TR at various frequencies, then I can tell you this. The V1811 has more TR and port wind than the FV18 when we played EOT intro.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is online now  
post #47239 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,799
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2998 Post(s)
Liked: 3851
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
If you are talking about TR at various frequencies, then I can tell you this. The V1811 has more TR and port wind than the FV18 when we played EOT intro.

To be honest I never experience much port wind from the v1801 but do quite a bit from FV18. The 118 had more though



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #47240 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
David Charles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Amherst, Ohio
Posts: 1,290
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1109 Post(s)
Liked: 1875
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
If you are talking about TR at various frequencies, then I can tell you this. The V1811 has more TR and port wind than the FV18 when we played EOT intro.


But then again, everybody perceives that differently


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
David Charles is offline  
post #47241 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 319 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3680 Post(s)
Liked: 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
To be honest I never experience much port wind from the v1801 but do quite a bit from FV18.
Well, you were not BEQ equipped back when you had the V1801s...

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 03-14-2019 at 01:37 PM.
chucky7 is online now  
post #47242 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:39 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,368
Mentioned: 356 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5557 Post(s)
Liked: 10788
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
If you are talking about TR at various frequencies, then I can tell you this. The V1811 has more TR and port wind than the FV18 when we played EOT intro.

I wasn't there, but if you say so, I believe you. Everything is a trade-off. The servo mechanism reduces distortion (and group delay, which may be a separate factor in low-frequency perceptions, as Marc and Brian have discussed) by monitoring excursion and limiting it when it starts to exceed certain parameters. Depending on settings (such as the use of the rumble filter employed in the FV18) I can see the V1811 producing more TR and port wind than an FV18, even though the FV18 might have an inherently deeper frequency response and a correspondingly deeper tone.

Basshead was asking for explanations for why lower ported subs may sound deeper than higher ported subs. And, I suggested a multi-dimensional answer that includes both what we hear and what we feel. I think that the subject is too complicated to explain in a single sentence. I also believe that both lower sounds and low-bass TR contribute to what we perceive below about 25Hz. And, every subwoofer will produce a somewhat different combination of those two factors.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is online now  
post #47243 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 319 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3680 Post(s)
Liked: 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
But then again, everybody perceives that differently
We compared EOT - intro on the Cap 1400, the Cap 118HT and the V1801 in one session, then the 118HT vs the FV18 in another date/session.

The V1801 may have its design compromises. TR is not one of them, because TR sells.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is online now  
post #47244 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,799
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2998 Post(s)
Liked: 3851
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, you were not BEQ equipped back when you had the V1801s...


True but my statement was apples to apples. The 118 with the same type of excursion had the most port wind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #47245 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:50 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,848
Mentioned: 319 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3680 Post(s)
Liked: 4928
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
True but my statement was apples to apples. The 118 with the same type of excursion had the most port wind.
I am talking about that the V1801 has more TR and port wind than the FV18 even though it's tuned the highest. Agree on the Cap 118HT.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is online now  
post #47246 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 11:51 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,799
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2998 Post(s)
Liked: 3851
Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I am talking about that the V1801 has more TR and port wind than the FV18 even though it's tuned the highest. Agree on the Cap 118HT.


Lol. Bud. I am ranking them like this and this was a 20hz tuned 118.

118
FV18
V1801


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #47247 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 01:26 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,744
Mentioned: 253 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5659 Post(s)
Liked: 5229
Much of this discussion better fits in the Subwoofer comparisons and impressions thread.

There is always the sub, the room, and then how the sub interacts in the room. No one size fits all. The JTR Cap 1400/2400/4000 just don't work in @imureh 's room. All the facts need to be considered. Not just the ones that support a specific argument/agenda.

Back when @imureh first decided to go ported and he preferred the PSA V1801 to the JTR 1400 some folks were up in arms, wildly speculating that he must have been doing something wrong or the JTR must have been defective (Jeff P confirmed it was not). Prior to him testing both the PSA and JTR I had felt strongly that the Cap 118 would be a better fit than the 1400 (and the V1801). However, other voices won out convincing him that the 1400 (same cab size) was no-risk and would simply be mo' betta'. Turned out not to be the case.

If Ray had gone with the 118HTs in the beginning we probably aren't having these discussions. There would be no Subwoofer comparisons and impressions thread. In the end, we all benefit from Ray's and others' experiences. Especially the willingness to explore the whats & whys (kudos Ray!).

This is a just hobby. I participate in the forum to maximize the performance of my systems, as well as to help others do the same. I don't do it to promote or diss any particular brand. In order to keep pushing the ball forward, we must retain objectivity. People do actually get hurt when solutions are promoted with an agenda at play (Reaction Audio). We should be concerned with the best fits for one's bass preferences, room, budget, and service needs.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 03-14-2019 at 01:29 PM.
Marc Alexander is online now  
post #47248 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 01:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,799
Mentioned: 232 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2998 Post(s)
Liked: 3851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Much of this discussion better fits in the Subwoofer comparisons and impressions thread.

There is always the sub, the room, and then how the sub interacts in the room. No one size fits all. The JTR Cap 1400/2400/4000 just don't work in @imureh 's room. All the facts need to be considered. Not just the ones that support a specific argument/agenda.

Back when @imureh first decided to go ported and he preferred the PSA V1801 to the JTR 1400 some folks were up in arms, wildly speculating that he must have been doing something wrong or the JTR must have been defective (Jeff P confirmed it was not). Prior to him testing both the PSA and JTR I felt strongly that the Cap 118 would be a better fit than the 1400. However, other voices won out convincing him that the 1400 was no-risk and would simply be mo' betta'. Turned out not to be the case.

IIf Ray had gone with the 118HTs in the beginning we probably aren't having these discussions. There would be no Subwoofer comparisons and impressions thread. In the end, we all benefit from Ray's and others' experiences. Especially the willingness to explore the whats & whys (kudos Ray!).

This is a just hobby. I participate in the forum to maximize the performance of my systems, as well as to help others do the same. I don't do it to promote or diss any particular brand. In order to keep pushing the ball forward, we must retain objectivity. People do actually get hurt when solutions are promoted with an agenda at play (Reaction Audio). We should be concerned with the best fits for one's bass preferences, room, budget, and service needs.


Well said Marc. We should move any further comparisons over to the impressions thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
zeuspaul and ahblaza like this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #47249 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 02:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ricci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 5,511
Mentioned: 169 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Liked: 927
Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I’ve been wondering myself how these correlations are being made. I get that everyone values what they hear in room, but we are talking about applying those impressions to the population of all subwoofers.

Warning: math nerd inbound.

Statistically speaking, do we really have enough data to make definitive claims one way or another? Experts generally agree that with a single variable problem, 10-20 measurements are required to make any sort of realistic conclusion. How many variables are applicable in this situation? Do we even know? My guess is we would need hundreds of data points with many more controlled factors than we have now to approach a consensus.

Side note: I think this type of stuff is often why Tom posts the way he does. He is probably the only one here that has done enough measurements to claim any sort of statistical significance on his viewpoint.

Anyways, food for thought I guess. I haven’t thought about this nearly as much as you guys, so feel free to prove me wrong.

Edit: I re-read the above and realized it could be perceived as negative/trolling. That was not my intent at all, my bad.

I deeply enjoy the conversation, and the early results do look promising. I just wonder if it’s really as sure a thing as some are advertising.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for posting this.

I don't have enough time to keep up around here and make posts like I used to, but I do try to drop in and catch up on here when I can.
There are conclusions being reached and new information, or opinions being posted around these parts and apparently some of it is being taken up as fact by some members. A lot of it does not seem to be backed up by hard data, or at least I haven't seen it. Logically some of it doesn't pass the smell test for me. I lack the time / energy to spend on generating the data myself or posting and trying to debate it, but I'm glad to see someone is questioning...
Ricci is offline  
post #47250 of 53038 Old 03-14-2019, 04:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,875
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3590 Post(s)
Liked: 11447
Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I deeply enjoy the conversation, and the early results do look promising. I just wonder if it’s really as sure a thing as some are advertising.
Good point fattty and I can answer this with little hesitation. Regardless of what we are referencing around here (whether it be higher tuned subs vs. lower tuned subs or sealed subs vs. ported subs) what we post here will never be a sure thing... it really only relates to the one posting it. Why? Because every room is different and every set up is different and as Mike pointed out... we are all different.

Your point is important because people need to remember that whenever they read any of our impressions, thoughts or opinions, what any of us says should not be taken as a universal truth or natural law. So for instance when I post: "A low port tune sub seems to have a more weighty sound characteristic even in bass scenes above 25Hz." What I'm really saying is... "I personally found in my particular room with things set up to my personal preferences it appears a sub with a lower port tune delivers bass with more weight and impact even when the scene had bass above 25Hz." I'm not making ANY guarantee that someone else in their own room will experience anything remotely close to what I experienced.

The same thing applies when one of us says that a sealed sub is better for this size room or a ported sub is better for that size room. Or a sealed sub is better for music and a ported sub is better for movies. What they are really saying is... "In my limited experience in my size room with my set up and listening preferences I like X type of sub for this application."

Basshead and you are right for questioning the talk about low tuned ported subs but I can't prove anything scientifically all I can do is report my experiences. But I do know one thing: The port tune on a sub is important and it should result in some kind of discernible difference in the bass it produces if you change the port tune by several Hz... otherwise why not make all subs the same?

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Last edited by Hopinater; 03-14-2019 at 04:30 PM.
Hopinater is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
chuffitychuffchuff , chuffmaster , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , hr chuff'n'stuff , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , s7201 , tv36 , v1500 , V1800 , v1801 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off