Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1601 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #48001 of 54016 Old 04-19-2019, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I just want to point out that it is actually not that easy to achieve reference level or 115dB @ 10Hz with just 2 2000W sealed or ported subs. It also requires the proper room.

You probably can do it now in your room. However, you have 2 sealed S3600s PLUS 2 UM18-22 driven by 6000W iNUKE amp.
You are correct that the room and placement make all the difference. You have to use the room/room gain to your advantage. Yes, as you pointed out I have 2 UM18-22 subs along with my 2 S3600I's. I have mentioned before what is your goal? How loud do you have your MV at? At what frequency do you want to be at reference? This is going to determine what sub and how many will you need. Like you said placement is key.
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post #48002 of 54016 Old 04-19-2019, 07:30 PM
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So maybe I missed this part, but when will pictures and full specs be available for the low tune subwoofers?
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post #48003 of 54016 Old 04-19-2019, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
So maybe I missed this part, but when will pictures and full specs be available for the low tune subwoofers?

Just a guess but soon. preorders start tomorrow and Tom will likely have the basic page up around that time.

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post #48004 of 54016 Old 04-19-2019, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I just want to point out that it is actually not that easy to achieve reference level or 115dB @ 10Hz with just 2 2000W sealed or ported subs. It also requires the proper room.

You probably can do it now in your room. However, you have 2 sealed S3600s PLUS 2 UM18-22 driven by 6000W iNUKE amp.
Im pretty lucky. Actually, no, I measured and went through a lot of subs

Two 18" sealed subs, 19mm xmax, about 1,000 watts to each. Above reference level with a sine wave to below 10 Hz. 2525 ft^3(16.5 x 17 x 9)

A 12 or 14 Hz ported sub will have substantially more output at 10 Hz than a (equivalent) sealed sub. Some rooms are bigger than others but again, even a 14 Hz port tune will have much higher output down to 10 Hz than a sealed sub. Porting my 19mm xmax subs at 14 Hz would probably add 6-8 dB 10-20 Hz, which would put me well above 120 dB at 10 Hz. PSA's offerings should be similar based on xmax alone. So maybe its not easy, but I bet many folks will be reference or above reference capable with these new offerings with a single sub in room down to 10 Hz. This is how I see the math anyways.

Personally, I'd take dual 18" pro audio Neo drivers tuned to 14 Hz without a moments hesitation over a 30+mm driver design tuned to 10 Hz.

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post #48005 of 54016 Old 04-19-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Im pretty lucky. Actually, no, I measured and went through a lot of subs

Two 18" sealed subs, 19mm xmax, about 1,000 watts to each. Above reference level with a sine wave to below 10 Hz. 2525 ft^3(16.5 x 17 x 9)

A 12 or 14 Hz ported sub will have substantially more output at 10 Hz than a (equivalent) sealed sub. Some rooms are bigger than others but again, even a 14 Hz port tune will have much higher output down to 10 Hz than a sealed sub. Porting my 19mm xmax subs at 14 Hz would probably add 6-8 dB 10-20 Hz, which would put me well above 120 dB at 10 Hz. PSA's offerings should be similar based on xmax alone. So maybe its not easy, but I bet many folks will be reference or above reference capable with these new offerings with a single sub in room down to 10 Hz. This is how I see the math anyways.

Personally, I'd take dual 18" pro audio Neo drivers tuned to 14 Hz without a moments hesitation over a 30+mm driver design tuned to 10 Hz.
Well said my friend, we forget the importance of the PSA signature sound, seems to get lost in all the 10Hz talk, like Tom said it's not magic but I think he has the recipe for the secret sauce that makes them taste so good, not all have the same flavor............
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post #48006 of 54016 Old 04-19-2019, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Well said my friend, we forget the importance of the PSA signature sound, seems to get lost in all the 10Hz talk, like Tom said it's not magic but I think he has the recipe for the secret sauce that makes them taste so good, not all have the same flavor............

Its the Bourbon


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post #48007 of 54016 Old 04-19-2019, 10:02 PM
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Personally, I'd take dual 18" pro audio Neo drivers tuned to 14 Hz without a moments hesitation over a 30+mm driver design tuned to 10 Hz.
why? can you elaborate?
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post #48008 of 54016 Old 04-19-2019, 10:15 PM
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why? can you elaborate?
Oh no...you eyeballing a pair or more of these new bad boys?

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post #48009 of 54016 Old 04-19-2019, 10:30 PM
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Oh no...you eyeballing a pair or more of these new bad boys?

Greg
i spoke with tom the other week. his new dual 18 is similar-ish in output to the fv25 so no real interest there, however the dual 21 looks like fun.

i've been theory-crafting what kind of cabinets to build in my room as it feels like there's no other ID choices available today that make sense to buy. (3) cap 4000's or (6) cap 2400's would be great fun but the value is poor in terms of dollar:bass (and hey i get it, it costs money to run a business). i'm probably going to build (6) single 18" slot-vented cabinets with a rough cap 2400 footprint that are much taller. i can pick up 5X9' sheets of 1" mdf for cheap and the plan (right now) is to run the stereo integrity hst-18 mk iii driver in each. not sure on power yet but no way i'll use plate amps, some kind of rack mount solution for sure. thankfully big power is relatively cheap these days. the only X factor in all of this is figuring out the right DSP for everything. i was actually just cleaning & making space in the garage to start building some cabinets today (spring is finally here in upstate ny haha).

the only ID offerings that interest me right now are the psa dual vented 21 (TBD), rythmik dual vented 18 (TBD), and the jtr 2400/4000 (if the company had customer service akin to rythmik or psa i probably would have already parted with the money).
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post #48010 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 12:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
i spoke with tom the other week. his new dual 18 is similar-ish in output to the fv25 so no real interest there, however the dual 21 looks like fun.

i've been theory-crafting what kind of cabinets to build in my room as it feels like there's no other ID choices available today that make sense to buy. (3) cap 4000's or (6) cap 2400's would be great fun but the value is poor in terms of dollar:bass (and hey i get it, it costs money to run a business). i'm probably going to build (6) single 18" slot-vented cabinets with a rough cap 2400 footprint that are much taller. i can pick up 5X9' sheets of 1" mdf for cheap and the plan (right now) is to run the stereo integrity hst-18 mk iii driver in each. not sure on power yet but no way i'll use plate amps, some kind of rack mount solution for sure. thankfully big power is relatively cheap these days. the only X factor in all of this is figuring out the right DSP for everything. i was actually just cleaning & making space in the garage to start building some cabinets today (spring is finally here in upstate ny haha).

the only ID offerings that interest me right now are the psa dual vented 21 (TBD), rythmik dual vented 18 (TBD), and the jtr 2400/4000 (if the company had customer service akin to rythmik or psa i probably would have already parted with the money).

If you do that, please post a link to your build thread.



That sounds like fun.
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post #48011 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 05:13 AM
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Low tuned subs, Neo drivers, Ipal vs regular Neo , blah blah blah.

The real question everyone wants to know is, will @basshead81 finally upgrade his 15" subs he's had for 37 years???????

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post #48012 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Low tuned subs, Neo drivers, Ipal vs regular Neo , blah blah blah.

The real question everyone wants to know is, will @basshead81 finally upgrade his 15" subs he's had for 37 years???????

38yrs today to be exact. And the surround on the driver's are still intact, so I continue to Rock On!
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post #48013 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 08:11 AM
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That @bear123 , is what we are all waiting to see/hear..
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post #48014 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 10:30 AM
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Today is the 20th.......................
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post #48015 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

38yrs today to be exact. And the surround on the driver's are still intact, so I continue to Rock On! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Your subs have seen more winters than most of the members here.

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post #48016 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Not if you're already at reference at 10hz. It all depends on your goals. How loud do you listen to your system? Do you want to be at 115db at 10hz or 120db at 10hz. I'm usually around -12db to -10db MV with the subs 6-7db hot and a 2-4db house curve using the room size function with my S3600I's. So at -10db MV my subs are hitting reference ( 115db) without any hint of strain regardless of the movie.
Great posts Mike. Those sheer output numbers only really apply when you run your subs at the point where you end up pushing their limits. It's what they are CAPABLE of delivering not what they will be delivering under normal listening levels. And if you always listen at the extreme levels that would push these subs then you better monitor your hearing. In my room I listen to most movies at -16 to -14 MV with the subs 6 to 8dB hot. And I've had the privilege of hearing dual V3601 and dual 2400ULF in my room and never did I even think about the max output numbers the subs were capable of. I was paying more attention to how they presented the bass... their sound signatures at the listening level I enjoy.

But this creates a quandary. If output isn't the be all and end all why do we always see it used as the defining criteria for a sub? Because it's easy! It's easy to throw numbers down and say, "See this sub can hit above reference at these frequencies so it must be better than that sub". But that only holds true when you really push things. Many of us have at least dual subs and many more of us don't listen at extreme levels so that max output number is not all that important.

Don't get me wrong, it matters... but it should only be one of many things to consider. We are all bass heads in this thread so I get the obsession with numbers but let's be honest, there is far more to a great subwoofer than just sheer output. Having said that I guess if you're a guy who has a single sub and really pushes it then those max output numbers should be your primary criteria.

You know what's really important?... Just as important or more so than the subwoofer? THE ROOM! If you are going to spend the money on a great subwoofer you better take the time to dial it in and get it placed right within your room. You can go out and buy the best sub in the world with incredible output from 10 to 25Hz. And all the output in the world won't matter if you sit in a null for those frequencies. So obviously there is much more to a good sub than output.

What do I look at? I've recently learned I value customer service just as much if not more than a sub's capabilities. So I look at all the stuff supporting a subwoofer after I purchase it as much as I look at the sub itself.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
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post #48017 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 11:09 AM
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Come on Tom! my finger hurts so much to refresh the PSA webpage screen...
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post #48018 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 11:14 AM
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Come on Tom! my finger hurts so much to refresh the PSA webpage screen...
I'm happy I'm not the only one doing so

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post #48019 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 11:20 AM
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Great posts Mike. Those sheer output numbers only really apply when you run your subs at the point where you end up pushing their limits. It's what they are CAPABLE of delivering not what they will be delivering under normal listening levels. And if you always listen at the extreme levels that would push these subs then you better monitor your hearing. In my room I listen to most movies at -16 to -14 MV with the subs 6 to 8dB hot. And I've had the privilege of hearing dual V3601 and dual 2400ULF in my room and never did I even think about the max output numbers the subs were capable of. I was paying more attention to how they presented the bass... their sound signatures at the listening level I enjoy.

But this creates a quandary. If output isn't the be all and end all why do we always see it used as the defining criteria for a sub? Because it's easy! It's easy to throw numbers down and say, "See this sub can hit above reference at these frequencies so it must be better than that sub". But that only holds true when you really push things. Many of us have at least dual subs and many more of us don't listen at extreme levels so that max output number is not all that important.

Don't get me wrong, it matters... but it should only be one of many things to consider. We are all bass heads in this thread so I get the obsession with numbers but let's be honest, there is far more to a great subwoofer than just sheer output. Having said that I guess if you're a guy who has a single sub and really pushes it then those max output numbers should be your primary criteria.

You know what's really important?... Just as important or more so than the subwoofer? THE ROOM! If you are going to spend the money on a great subwoofer you better take the time to dial it in and get it placed right within your room. You can go out and buy the best sub in the world with incredible output from 10 to 25Hz. And all the output in the world won't matter if you sit in a null for those frequencies. So obviously there is much more to a good sub that output.

What do I look at? I have learned I value customer service just as much if not more than a sub's capabilities. So I look at all the stuff supporting a subwoofer after I purchase it as much as I look at the sub itself.
This is very true. @imureh compared multiple subs in his room and actually preferred the sub with lower maximum output capabilities.
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post #48020 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 11:48 AM
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why? can you elaborate?
PA speakers bring the mid bass the large xmax woofs can't, and don't have the overhang most do. I agree with @bear123 but in the end its still what your preference is in the end.

If you are going diy, just buy the 21's and diy those. Plenty of build threads with those in the forum
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post #48021 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 11:52 AM
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Hi all,

I know it may be disappointing but there' not going to be a big web-site update today for the new subs. There's just been no time to worry about that. You can still officially order and get in line thru the website or just by calling me.(email me for the website link) I'm almost certain I won't be able to get more than 24 cabinets in the first run. Once those are spoken for the pre order ends. Could be today, could be 2 weeks from now. I have no way of knowing.

I will make a longer more detailed post within a couple hours. The whole crew is here today and we're focusing on back order fulfillment right now. But I will have all the final specifications, pricing, size, etc in full detail here this afternoon. The final production cabinet has been delayed for a couple more business days but I'll show you our latest proto type that has been wrecking havoc in the office. I wanted the first picture to be production/marketing photo quality but I know you guys are chomping on the bit to see what's what..

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post #48022 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 12:00 PM
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Personally, I'd take dual 18" pro audio Neo drivers tuned to 14 Hz without a moments hesitation over a 30+mm driver design tuned to 10 Hz.
I think you're in the 99% majority there.. Well, for people that hear both anyway.

Basing a component level(woofer) comparison on a single spec like "xmax" is practically worthless. If you have a Klipple report it does get easier to correlate what you hear with what is being measured. But huge xmax stuff derived from car audio "bump the loudest" designs just have never appealed to me. And I've tried a ton of them. When I look at woofer specs "xmax" isn't even in my top 5 for what I worry about. Sometimes not even top 10. But other brands/fans tunnel vision on that singular spec and that's fine. It's just not what sounds best to me.

With any luck we'll have a Klipple system in house before the end of 2020 so we can begin proper/scientific correlations per the above along with experimenting with our own motor designs in real time. 2021-2022 sound be a lot of fun.

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post #48023 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 12:08 PM
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This is very true. @imureh compared multiple subs in his room and actually preferred the sub with lower maximum output capabilities.
Good point. This brings up another interesting thing. When I was comparing the low tuned 2400ULF to the higher tuned V3601 I discovered that on some movies with lots of ULF and mid-bass the V3601 sounded better even though it wasn't capable of reaching down to the lower frequencies that the 2400ULF could reach. A great example was the Lone Survivor chopper scene. That has lot's of low stuff but it also has good mid-bass. The 2400ULF sounded good but the 3601 created a more intense scene (I guess because it was able to do a better job with all the mid-bass). And this is coming from a guy who really liked the way the low tuned 2400ULF sounded in most ULF scenes. But there were times that the V3601 seemed to do better even in scenes known for ULF.

This just goes to show that bass scenes are not just a single test tone at a given frequency which is what those max output numbers are about. Bass scenes have all sorts of different frequencies in them ranging across the spectrum. Bass scenes known for their ULF will still have mid and upper bass as well. I've now come to believe that when shopping for a LT subwoofer what you really want is a low tuned subwoofer that can still deliver good mid bass.

Now that's a tough thing to do but it can be done and there are some examples out there. For me, the ultimate LT sub will be able to deliver good powerful bass across more frequencies than just the ULFs. And knowing Tom's love of mid-bass I'm sure these new LT designed subs from PSA will do just that.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
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post #48024 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 01:45 PM
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Hi all, (apologies for any typos in advanced---been a very busy day)

I understand there will be disappointment with the lack of a website update specific to the new designs but there's just no time for that at the moment. I have well over 10,000 products in the field now. Combine that with a fairly large back-list. Those customers will always demand top priority over marketing for new orders.

You can order over the website or call me to get in on the pre-order discounts. Some may be more comfortable waiting a bit for actual production quality pictures and the website update/page---that is completely understandable. I can't promise when any of that will happen but I'll do my very best to try to get it all done as quickly as possible---hopefully by the end of the week. The final production/photo quality cabinet has been delayed about a week and won't be here for another 2-4 business days anyway. Everything is still on track for shipments to begin in May. And hopefully closer to mid May than late May. I remember we sold a ton(literally a couple tons worth) of the t18 before we even had a web page for it so who knows..

I'm going to get a maximum of 24 cabinets on the first production run. Once those are spoken for the pre order ends. That may be 2 days or 2 weeks. It's difficult to guess.

Here are the main details.


* The amplifier is our 1920w platform. I can make the argument it is putting out more power but I'm really not worried about trying to market these. At the moment interest is way beyond anything I could have hoped for anyway.

* The cabinet is the same for all three options. Two front firing 18s, single down firing 6 inch flared port, full face grill.

20x26x48( WxDxH ).

Tune is 13.5hz +/- 0.5hz.

FR is (+/-3) 15hz-150hz anechoic. 7-10hz pressurization in all but the largest rooms.

Cea-2010 will be finalized as weather/time allows. I will say along with the dramatic increase in 10-20hz performance we haven't sacrificed much mid and upper bass impact. There's *some* trade off of course, that is just physics. But even if you put the base version next to a V3611 you would be hard pressed to notice this. This is due to the fact that the V3611 was such a mid/upper bass entity that even if you lose a couple/few dB there it's hard to find source material and listening levels where it's jumps out at you.

The woofer options are as follows--- There are three.

TV36 = standard 18 inch woofers we've been using with outstanding results for quite a while now. Full details on available on any current 18 inch based product page on the website.

$2199 pre-order. $2599 is the estimated regular pricing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

TV36neo = A high end Neo woofer from Italy(B&C). Exceptional distortion control, exceptionally strong motor, build quality and power handling/thermal limits are far beyond anything we've offered to date.

$2599 pre-order. $2999 is the estimated regular pricing.
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc...-0/4/18ds115-4

This one sound a bit different than the base version. Better overall. Similar <25hz to the base version but this driver is such a beast in efficiency it goes toe-toe with the V3611 in 40-100hz without breaking a sweat. So my one line description would be.

~ The TV36neo give you all of the violent mid and upper bass of the V3611 while pressurizing the room down to 10hz and below.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TV36ipal + Ipal 18" woofer. Arguably the highest quality 18 inch woofer available anywhere, at any price.

$2999 pre-order. $3599 is the estimated regular pricing.

https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc.../18-0/2/18ipal

The cleanest, most linear, strongest motor woofer I have ever used/measured...and there's been nothing even remotely close. The sound quality reflects this as well. I'm not going to wax poetically, that's always been difficult. But our proprietary ICE design match with IPAL technology is truly something special.


Let the games begin. (fyi, #1 thru #7 are already in the books)


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

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post #48025 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 01:53 PM
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Will these have similar clearance/feet to the V15DF since it’s a downfiring port or is more height needed? I understand the dimensions are pretty similar since it doesn’t have a front slot port.

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post #48026 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 02:09 PM
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Here's the latest proto-type in action.

I wanted the first pictures to be of the actual production/photo quality cabinet but hey, it still looks impressive. You can see the V3611 next to it to get a good idea of how the new neo woofers will look in the TV36 cabinet. (very nice imo).

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post #48027 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Will these have similar clearance/feet to the V15DF since it’s a downfiring port or is more height needed? I understand the dimensions are pretty similar since it doesn’t have a front slot port.
I considered several options here---even one with adjustable height to load the pressure zone between the port and the floor differently. But in the end, as most of it is, keep it simple worked best..

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post #48028 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 02:26 PM
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Welll, in for a pair of TV36ipal

Tom was too busy to think about the Ricci/data-bass offer, but said we'd revisit it before shipping time. Hopefully it all works out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
The cleanest, most linear, strongest motor woofer I have ever used/measured...and there's been nothing even remotely close.
Wow, is SI HST 18 MkIII included in that comparison?
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post #48029 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Welll, in for a pair of TV36ipal

Tom was too busy to think about the Ricci/data-bass offer, but said we'd revisit it before shipping time. Hopefully it all works out.



Wow, is SI HST 18 MkIII included in that comparison?
Seriously, forget about databass. 2 of those will be sick, don't need third party measurements to confirm that will be the case. Im jelly

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post #48030 of 54016 Old 04-20-2019, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Will these have similar clearance/feet to the V15DF since it’s a downfiring port or is more height needed? I understand the dimensions are pretty similar since it doesn’t have a front slot port.
It should be higher with cylindrical feet like the XV30F SE

http://www.deephzaudio.com/Power%20S...ct%20page.html
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