Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1602 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #48031 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tbass2k View Post
Tom, what are the pros and cons of down firing vs front firing ports?

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First, it is important to separate subjective (and often very casual) POVs with measurable benefits. Some talk of the wind from a port facing directly at the seat as a fun effect. But I've spoken with a good percentage of folks who find that distracting. Myself, I can enjoy the parlor-trick aspect of it to be sure...but eventually I did find it to distract me from the "suspension of disbelief" with good films. I mean, how often does loud bass on screen visually correlate with you suddenly feeling a breeze? But having that nearfield and firing into the back of your sofa or something like that is better and something, again, some do enjoy.

Benefits to this specific down firing design.

* If you are firing into carpet harmonics will be absorbed but anything <200hz or so isn't affected. Not going to be anything very audible, but's it is real and measurable.
* Any spurious port "noise" will also be minimized to some degree. With a huge 6" widely flared port that's not going to be much of an issue regardless.
* As discussed previously a single, large, circular, straight port is always going to be the most efficient use of space versus laminar air flow.
* With some consideration to design you can space the bottom of a down firing ported sub off the floor a given amount to "load" that space and effectively lengthen the port which will lower the tuning a little. Again, nothing I would ever claim as a huge difference but one of those "nice to haves" at the end of the day.

But, for me, I wanted to ensure maximum laminar flow for this design. Everything else was secondary with regards to the porting.

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post #48032 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 03:49 PM
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Very cool. I like all three versions being offered, it allows people to get in on this at different price points depending on their wallets and bass addiction level. Looks like @ratbuddy is going full monty with the iPal version. I'm pretty sure I will have to go with the mid-tier version with the more affordable Neo driver but maybe, just maybe, something will allow me to do the iPal version. Either way it will be fun! Anyone else on this thread planning on pre-ordering the new TV low tuned subs?

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

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post #48033 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Very cool. I like all three versions being offered, it allows people to get in on this at different price points depending on their wallets and bass addiction level. Looks like @ratbuddy is going full monty with the iPal version. I'm pretty sure I will have to go with the mid-tier version with the more affordable Neo driver but maybe, just maybe, something will allow me to do the iPal version. Either way it will be fun! Anyone else on this thread planning on pre-ordering the new TV low tuned subs?


Yes I am in on two as well. either the entry level or mid level. I plan on driving to pick them up and deliver the old S3611’s

Question for Tom can the new subs be laid on the sides. I would like to use them as speaker stands


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post #48034 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Very cool. I like all three versions being offered, it allows people to get in on this at different price points depending on their wallets and bass addiction level. Looks like @ratbuddy is going full monty with the iPal version. I'm pretty sure I will have to go with the mid-tier version with the more affordable Neo driver but maybe, just maybe, something will allow me to do the iPal version. Either way it will be fun! Anyone else on this thread planning on pre-ordering the new TV low tuned subs?
I'm planning to get in on the pre-order, as soon as I can decide which of the 3 monsters to go with. Going from a pair of V18xx to a single TV36, my gut says I should at least go with the mid-level Neo to make sure I don't run the risk of having less mid-bass. Of course at that point, the iPal is "only" $400 more.

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post #48035 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Yes I am in on two as well. either the entry level or mid level. I plan on driving to pick them up and deliver the old S3611’s

Question for Tom can the new subs be laid on the sides. I would like to use them as speaker stands


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Yes, absolutely.

I can even remove the four machined nylon standoffs and replace those with a small threaded insert before you pick up if you prefer.

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post #48036 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Tom, sense we talking about the new TV36... subs can you talk a bit about power handling and power required for these designs. I know you mentioned your using the PSA in house ICE 1920W amplifier. But I know the B&C drivers (18ds115 and the 18IPAL) both have high power handling and large voice coils (4.5 inch). Did the higher power handling give you troubles in getting enough power to meet your goals?



I ask because from what I understand usually enough power is enough and too much is just more heat... Thanks Tom
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post #48037 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:10 PM
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These look awesome. I’m seriously tempted to grab one of the ipals on pre order but realistically these are too deep for me to fit without pulling my L/R out too far into the room. :/

May have to exercise patience and see what kind of potential trickle down we may see with these drivers down into the single driver designs (please??)


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post #48038 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeyejw View Post
These look awesome. I’m seriously tempted to grab one of the ipals on pre order but realistically these are too deep for me to fit without pulling my L/R out too far into the room. :/

May have to exercise patience and see what kind of potential trickle down we may see with these drivers down into the single driver designs (please??)


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That's going to be a wait. I'm booked fairly solid thru 2019 already. So while I'm thinking of different ways to best approach it I can't see it getting to market until 2020(and maybe mid-late 2020).

Never say never but I don't want to lead anyone one like it's "coming soon" or anything.

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post #48039 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Very cool. I like all three versions being offered, it allows people to get in on this at different price points depending on their wallets and bass addiction level. Looks like @ratbuddy is going full monty with the iPal version. I'm pretty sure I will have to go with the mid-tier version with the more affordable Neo driver but maybe, just maybe, something will allow me to do the iPal version. Either way it will be fun! Anyone else on this thread planning on pre-ordering the new TV low tuned subs?

Don't do that to yourself at the preorder price. You will be wondering what if later, just saying

8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


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post #48040 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:22 PM
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Here's a fun link I stumbled across previously. Seems to fit in today..

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nd_its_Effects

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post #48041 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Don't do that to yourself at the preorder price. You will be wondering what if later, just saying
I agree, at the pre-order price the iPALs are a steal and I'm sure a dual discount will apply and if Hop goes to pick them up as well................
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post #48042 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I think you're in the 99% majority there.. But huge xmax stuff derived from car audio "bump the loudest" designs just have never appealed to me.
Best car system I have ever had was in a '87 RX7 Turbo with a smallish/angled custom ported cabinet that ran the width of the back wall and housed 4 ADS 7" drivers facing forward driven by a Nakamichi 200W (or was it 400W) mono amp. Man, talk about tight bass that just also gave a great back massage.

System also had 2 pair of ADS 320i -1 set in the doors, 1 set woofs in the shock towers and tweets mounted just above them/angled forward. Boy do I miss that car-it was a rocket with an awesome sound system.

edit: OK Ok, its nor related to super low tuned behemoths but not everything has to be huge to work well. Right guys?

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post #48043 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post
Hi Tom, sense we talking about the new TV36... subs can you talk a bit about power handling and power required for these designs. I know you mentioned your using the PSA in house ICE 1920W amplifier. But I know the B&C drivers (18ds115 and the 18IPAL) both have high power handling and large voice coils (4.5 inch). Did the higher power handling give you troubles in getting enough power to meet your goals?



I ask because from what I understand usually enough power is enough and too much is just more heat... Thanks Tom
Well, first, let's be sure we're separating power handling from sensitivity. Both neo woofers have very high sensitivity, 97dB as rated by B&C. So while the SYSTEM sensitivity will vary with frequency and also be dependent on cabinet design considerations you're starting with unusually high numbers(97). In general the higher this value is the less power you will need to reach a given output level.

Now, power handling or thermal capabilities is separate. That is simply the amount of power the voice coil can absorb. This is a difficult specification to compare from woofer to woofer though as most have no defining way to express exactly HOW they derived it. And even when they do, like B&C, it can be challenging to correlate there method with real world, home audio based source/signals.

But at the end of the day, all things be equal, more power handling is better of course. Even to such a degree where you have much more than will be applied (voltage from the amp) on a continuous basis. This simply means the coils are always going to be cool ad a cucumber(well, not THAT cool) so sound quality will never be comprised by any thermal considerations.

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post #48044 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That's going to be a wait. I'm booked fairly solid thru 2019 already. So while I'm thinking of different ways to best approach it I can't see it getting to market until 2020(and maybe mid-late 2020).



Never say never but I don't want to lead anyone one like it's "coming soon" or anything.



Tom V.

Power Sound Audio


Thanks Tom and totally understand. Most likely I would be very happy with a pair of V18XX so I’ll probably either snap up a couple over the next year or stick with what I have for a bit longer and see what you think up next. I just see two of those ipal drivers at that pre-order price and it’s hard to pass on that deal!

The 26” depth would mean my mains would have to come out another 10” or so from the wall and while it’s a large open concept space the seating area is not very large which means my towers would be way out into the room. I could live with it no question but the wife, probably not so much!

I will live vicariously through the guys taking the plunge in the meantime.




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post #48045 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by hawkeyejw View Post

I will live vicariously through the guys taking the plunge in the meantime.
Me too

S3000i feel so inferior during these talks now
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post #48046 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 05:34 PM
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On for 1 ipal so far But will probably end up with the second one by the middle of the week


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post #48047 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeyejw View Post
Thanks Tom and totally understand. Most likely I would be very happy with a pair of V18XX so I’ll probably either snap up a couple over the next year or stick with what I have for a bit longer and see what you think up next. I just see two of those ipal drivers at that pre-order price and it’s hard to pass on that deal!

The 26” depth would mean my mains would have to come out another 10” or so from the wall and while it’s a large open concept space the seating area is not very large which means my towers would be way out into the room. I could live with it no question but the wife, probably not so much!

I will live vicariously through the guys taking the plunge in the meantime.




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Turn them sideways, you'll only have to pull them out 4". Sure to be wife approved

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post #48048 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 05:47 PM
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So I could trade my 4 triax’s in for 2 ipals plus some credit. Not sure if I should or not. I don’t have a vehicle to get 4 triax’s to PSA in one trip and I certainly am not maxing our my triax’s.

The triax’s also work well as end tables and stands for my mains...

4 of the ipals would make good replacements for my S2’s in my gameroom.

Decisions.....
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post #48049 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 06:02 PM
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Turn them sideways, you'll only have to pull them out 4". Sure to be wife approved


I would, but I only have about 22” of width as well unfortunately.


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So I could trade my 4 triax’s in for 2 ipals plus some credit. Not sure if I should or not. I don’t have a vehicle to get 4 triax’s to PSA in one trip and I certainly am not maxing our my triax’s.



The triax’s also work well as end tables and stands for my mains...



4 of the ipals would make good replacements for my S2’s in my gameroom.



Decisions.....

Can never have too much headroom. It’s rattling around in your brain, now you have to! Do it for me.

4 of these in one room...

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
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post #48051 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 06:30 PM
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Well, I have officially joined the pre-order for a new TV36-iPAL to replace my dual V18xx. Looking forward to hearing the new beast, but not moving it or boxing up the old subs.

Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
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post #48052 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 06:57 PM
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from the website of the new drivers.....


" 80 mm peak-to-peak excursion before damage "


are you serious ? thats over 3 inches....

if it were mounted dead center of a 2x4, it would darn near break plane on both sides at max excursion !
insane...
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post #48053 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Don't do that to yourself at the preorder price. You will be wondering what if later, just saying
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I agree, at the pre-order price the iPALs are a steal and I'm sure a dual discount will apply and if Hop goes to pick them up as well................
Oh you guys are killing me!!!! Mostly because there is much truth in what you say.

Luckily I have a little time to think about this and see what I can do. I'm definitely in for two TV36's (and have been for the last six weeks) so I'm set there. The question is can I make two iPal versions work? Man... this hobby is a tempting mistress.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #48054 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 07:56 PM
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Oh you guys are killing me!!!! Mostly because there is much truth in what you say.



Luckily I have a little time to think about this and see what I can do. I'm definitely in for two TV36's (and have been for the last six weeks) so I'm set there. The question is can I make two iPal versions work? Man... this hobby is a tempting mistress.

The rare talking you down from going bigger short speech:

You were happy with two different versions of the V36 for so long, I’m betting even the mid tier TV36 would thoroughly satisfy you. Of course, everyone always wants the fruit at the top, but I don’t think you’ll honestly regret not buying the IPALs. Heck I’m curious how all three versions will sound, but I can’t demo them all.
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post #48055 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 07:59 PM
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LOL... This is what I love about this thread and being a part for the PSA family... we all get along well and this thread moves faster than any other thread on AVS (that I know of). There is usually something fun to read and today we already have had close to 50 posts. It moves fast around here, especially on days like today... you best be a speed reader to keep up.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #48056 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Can never have too much headroom. It’s rattling around in your brain, now you have to! Do it for me.

4 of these in one room...
I’d have to sell my S2’s in order to go with 4 ipals unless Tom takes S2’s in trade

It would be nearly an even trade - my 4 triax’s for the 2 ipals. The triax’s blend in pretty welll in my living room as end tables on the ends of the couch and stands for my mains. The ipals would not be able to serve either function.

Trying to talk myself out of this

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post #48057 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
The rare talking you down from going bigger short speech:

You were happy with two different versions of the V36 for so long, I’m betting even the mid tier TV36 would thoroughly satisfy you. Of course, everyone always wants the fruit at the top, but I don’t think you’ll honestly regret not buying the IPALs. Heck I’m curious how all three versions will sound, but I can’t demo them all.
Thank you... and my wife thanks you. I know you are right... from a logical point of view. And I need that because I've proven over and over I'm not always logical when it comes to resisting subwoofers. But then again we all know this hobby throws logic out the window and stomps it in the gutter.

But I like the way you are taking a pragmatic practical approach to this. You remind me of basshead, and we need more stable people like basshead around here. I can't promise your logic will sink in but I like it.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Last edited by Hopinater; 04-20-2019 at 08:13 PM.
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post #48058 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 08:21 PM
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In for 2 TV36ipals... I just need to sell a kidney...

@ Hopinater,



zeuspaul, sk373, bear123 and 2 others like this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 04-20-2019 at 09:04 PM.
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post #48059 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thank you... and my wife thanks you. I know you are right... from a logical point of view. And I need that because I've proven over and over I'm not always logical when it comes to resisting subwoofers. But then again we all know this hobby throws logic out the window and stomps it in the gutter.

But I like the way you are taking a pragmatic practical approach to this. You remind me of basshead, and we need more stable people like basshead around here. I can't promise your logic will sink in but I like it.

Well bass can be the good influence. But not me. Think about this way, These could be the last bass update you'll make. I mean the TV36ipal will have crazy upper bass and low bass and amazing sound quality. Do it, Do it!



But seriously do what you feel is best for you..............Just make sure to post your impressions when you got your new subs!

ShaunH

Last edited by oneeyeblind; 04-20-2019 at 08:31 PM.
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post #48060 of 52995 Old 04-20-2019, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thank you... and my wife thanks you. I know you are right... from a logical point of view. And I need that because I've proven over and over I'm not always logical when it comes to resisting subwoofers. But then again we all know this hobby throws logic out the window and stomps it in the gutter.



But I like the way you are taking a pragmatic practical approach to this. You remind me of basshead, and we need more stable people like basshead around here. I can't promise your logic will sink in but I like it.

Lol, no problem. Then for people like @raynist I’m all you should definitely get 4 ipals. Even though his 4 triaxes or dual S2’s are likely more than adequate.

It’s frustrating for me, because I can modify a lot about my room, and I have in the last few years, but the length of these subs have never been an option for me. Oh I thought about trading in both my V1801’s and laying a TV36 on its side, but that’s still a good chunk wider than what I can accommodate right now...although if I take the feet off that would help, lol. No, I can’t right now...keeps quietly telling himself.

I can’t wait to see some of these in the wild!

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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