Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1603 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #48061 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thank you... and my wife thanks you. I know you are right... from a logical point of view. And I need that because I've proven over and over I'm not always logical when it comes to resisting subwoofers. But then again we all know this hobby throws logic out the window and stomps it in the gutter.

But I like the way you are taking a pragmatic practical approach to this. You remind me of basshead, and we need more stable people like basshead around here. I can't promise your logic will sink in but I like it.

Well bass can be the good influence. But not me. Think about this way, These could be the last bass update you'll make. I mean the TV36ipal will have crazy upper bass and low bass and amazing sound quality. Do it, Do it!



But seriously do what you feel is best for you..............Just make sure to post your impressions when you got your new subs!

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post #48062 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thank you... and my wife thanks you. I know you are right... from a logical point of view. And I need that because I've proven over and over I'm not always logical when it comes to resisting subwoofers. But then again we all know this hobby throws logic out the window and stomps it in the gutter.



But I like the way you are taking a pragmatic practical approach to this. You remind me of basshead, and we need more stable people like basshead around here. I can't promise your logic will sink in but I like it.

Lol, no problem. Then for people like @raynist I’m all you should definitely get 4 ipals. Even though his 4 triaxes or dual S2’s are likely more than adequate.

It’s frustrating for me, because I can modify a lot about my room, and I have in the last few years, but the length of these subs have never been an option for me. Oh I thought about trading in both my V1801’s and laying a TV36 on its side, but that’s still a good chunk wider than what I can accommodate right now...although if I take the feet off that would help, lol. No, I can’t right now...keeps quietly telling himself.

I can’t wait to see some of these in the wild!

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post #48063 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I’d have to sell my S2’s in order to go with 4 ipals unless Tom takes S2’s in trade

It would be nearly and even trade my 4 triax’s for the 2 ipals. The triax’s been in pretty welll in my living room as end tables on the couch and stands for my mains. The ipals would not be able to serve either function.

Trying to talk myself out of this
But, Ipals.
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post #48064 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:41 PM
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I'll take two iPals pleez thanx
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post #48065 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:42 PM
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So I am deciding between the entry level and the neo. Ipal is too rich for my blood unless one of them would be better than dual of the others. I am 99% home theater and BEQ almost every movie. Which option would serve me best coming from dual S3611


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post #48066 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:43 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
So I am deciding between the entry level and the neo. Ipal is too rich for my blood unless one of them would be better than dual of the others. I am 99% home theater and BEQ almost every movie. Which option would serve me best coming from dual S3611


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I feel they should all have sufficient mid bass but want the most output down low as I can.

*meant to edit my post, not quote myself
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post #48067 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Very cool. I like all three versions being offered, it allows people to get in on this at different price points depending on their wallets and bass addiction level. Looks like @ratbuddy is going full monty with the iPal version. I'm pretty sure I will have to go with the mid-tier version with the more affordable Neo driver but maybe, just maybe, something will allow me to do the iPal version. Either way it will be fun! Anyone else on this thread planning on pre-ordering the new TV low tuned subs?
Be sure to post your impressions of the Ipal version when you get them.

In all seriousness, the pre-order pricing on the Ipal version is really solid.
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post #48068 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Seriously, forget about databass. 2 of those will be sick, don't need third party measurements to confirm that will be the case. Im jelly
Thank you for this post, long timers of PSA subs like myself and others appreciate this as well and have all the faith in Tom and he knows where our bread is buttered, I don't need 3rd party confirmation but some do and I believe Tom will provide that to the naysayers soon, I can't wait.....

Like another PSA old timing person said I believe Tom is on a mission and this is just the tip of what's to come.
I have to mention Jim F as well, I really miss him and I'm sure Tom does as well...........
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post #48069 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
I feel they should all have sufficient mid bass but want the most output down low as I can.

*meant to edit my post, not quote myself
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So on one hand I think you would fine with base model TV36.... as the Eminence 18 is very good at mid bass and upper bass and loosing a few db shouldn't be too bad. But your also coming from sealed subs which will give you a lot of mid and upper bass and you might miss that.



So I guess it feels like Base model vs mid version (neo) as either will give you a lot of upper bass and give your more TR and ULF. Are you wanting to preorder?

ShaunH
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post #48070 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Be sure to post your impressions of the Ipal version when you get them.

In all seriousness, the pre-order pricing on the Ipal version is really solid.
This and a quick discussion with Tom is what pushed me over the edge to get the Ipal version A quick Google search of the 2 drivers involved shows that the Ipal drivers cost significantly more and likely cost more than the $400 difference between the 2 versions. Since I have decided to go from dual smaller subs to a single large sub, I wanted all of the performance I can get this time around so I can put an end to upgraditis once and for all. I'm tired of wondering "what if".

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post #48071 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post
So on one hand I think you would fine with base model TV36.... as the Eminence 18 is very good at mid bass and upper bass and loosing a few db shouldn't be too bad. But your also coming from sealed subs which will give you a lot of mid and upper bass and you might miss that.



So I guess it feels like Base model vs mid version (neo) as either will give you a lot of upper bass and give your more TR and ULF. Are you wanting to preorder?


I’ve talked to Tom several times I’m buying two subwoofers. Just which am I getting.... as I posted earlier I’ll be making the trip to see Tom to trade my subs and save some money

If the regular drivers will net me 6 to 8 DBs at 10 hz over my sealed set up that would suffice


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post #48072 of 53941 Old 04-20-2019, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
I’ve talked to Tom several times I’m buying two subwoofers. Just which am I getting.... as I posted earlier I’ll be making the trip to see Tom to trade my subs and save some money

If the regular drivers will net me 6 to 8 DBs at 10 hz over my sealed set up that would suffice


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The regular version should still net you a big chunk of output and substantial TR below 20-30Hz or so versus the S36’s. Even with a lot of room gain, a low tuned sub will provide even more ULF than before and will still tack on whatever gain you’re getting down low.
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post #48073 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 12:56 AM
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Forget logic, go with your gut or you may regret your decision.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thank you... and my wife thanks you. I know you are right... from a logical point of view. And I need that because I've proven over and over I'm not always logical when it comes to resisting subwoofers. But then again we all know this hobby throws logic out the window and stomps it in the gutter.

But I like the way you are taking a pragmatic practical approach to this. You remind me of basshead, and we need more stable people like basshead around here. I can't promise your logic will sink in but I like it.
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Spoiler!
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post #48074 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Oh you guys are killing me!!!! Mostly because there is much truth in what you say.

Luckily I have a little time to think about this and see what I can do. I'm definitely in for two TV36's (and have been for the last six weeks) so I'm set there. The question is can I make two iPal versions work? Man... this hobby is a tempting mistress.
Hop: iPal or bust. I think if you went with the Neo's you would be very happy also as it would be a 2-tier upgrade from your old V3601's.

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post #48075 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Just spitballin' here, but what if one of the people with a pair of the low-tuned subs on reserve wanted to volunteer to have one shipped to data-bass for testing, was OK with the resultant delay in receiving the sub(s), and was also willing to cover the extra shipping costs involved?



Happy to do so, would love to see some third-party numbers on these things
I don't believe DB testing is ever a relatively "quick" turnaround. Especially transitioning from Winter to Spring there is likely a backlog. Snag yours ASAP. I read Tom state that he was going to have something tested (not sure if it would be this cab or the larger one he's teased).

While I am often calling for 3rd-party testing I see it as less of a necessity with the B&C drivers. The Eminence 18" drivers' parameters are relatively unknown. Not the case with the B&Cs. The 21" versions of both B&C drivers have been tested on DB.
https://data-bass.com/data?page=drivers&type=0&mfr=2
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post #48076 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 02:28 AM
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Watched Escape Room and Hands of Stone. Hands of Stone brings it!!!!!!!!! I feel like I took a few head and body shots after watching it. It's mixed loud so enjoy.



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post #48077 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I don't believe DB testing is ever a relatively "quick" turnaround. Especially transitioning from Winter to Spring there is likely a backlog. Snag yours ASAP. I read Tom state that he was going to have something tested (not sure if it would be this cab or the larger one he's teased).

While I am often calling for 3rd-party testing I see it as less of a necessity with the B&C drivers. The Eminence 18" drivers' parameters are relatively unknown. Not the case with the B&Cs. The 21" versions of both B&C drivers have been tested on DB.
https://data-bass.com/data?page=drivers&type=0&mfr=2
I heard @eng-399 B&C's 21inch Neo driver subs and the mid-upper bass will rip the skin off of your body. These drivers are extremely tight and clean sounding. I'm happy the ported guys are getting their low tuned subs, enjoy.

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.
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post #48078 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
* The cabinet is the same for all three options. Two front firing 18s, single down firing 6 inch flared port, full face grill.

20x26x48( WxDxH ).

Tune is 13.5hz +/- 0.5hz.

FR is (+/-3) 15hz-150hz anechoic. 7-10hz pressurization in all but the largest rooms.

{SNIP}

TV36 = standard 18 inch woofers we've been using with outstanding results for quite a while now. Full details on available on any current 18 inch based product page on the website.

$2199 pre-order. $2599 is the estimated regular pricing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

TV36neo = A high end Neo woofer from Italy(B&C). Exceptional distortion control, exceptionally strong motor, build quality and power handling/thermal limits are far beyond anything we've offered to date.

$2599 pre-order. $2999 is the estimated regular pricing.
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc...-0/4/18ds115-4

This one sound a bit different than the base version. Better overall. Similar <25hz to the base version but this driver is such a beast in efficiency it goes toe-toe with the V3611 in 40-100hz without breaking a sweat. So my one line description would be.

~ The TV36neo give you all of the violent mid and upper bass of the V3611 while pressurizing the room down to 10hz and below.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TV36ipal + Ipal 18" woofer. Arguably the highest quality 18 inch woofer available anywhere, at any price.

$2999 pre-order. $3599 is the estimated regular pricing.

https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc.../18-0/2/18ipal

The cleanest, most linear, strongest motor woofer I have ever used/measured...and there's been nothing even remotely close. The sound quality reflects this as well. I'm not going to wax poetically, that's always been difficult. But our proprietary ICE design match with IPAL technology is truly something special.
Is there any appreciable output differences between the 3 or will they all be fairly similar to the V3611 ≥20Hz?

What are the tuning frequencies of the V3611 & V1811?

Port wind not withstanding, is there any appreciable difference in TR between the 3 drivers? Is there any difference in TR between the TV36 and V3611 cabinets?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Very cool. I like all three versions being offered, it allows people to get in on this at different price points depending on their wallets and bass addiction level.
I agree!
In fact, I'm quite tempted to order a V36ipal at the pre-order price. If only I could trade other brand subs in (I have way too many at the moment).
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post #48079 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I heard @eng-399 B&C's 21inch Neo driver subs and the mid-upper bass will rip the skin off of your body. These drivers are extremely tight and clean sounding. I'm happy the ported guys are getting their low tuned subs, enjoy.
I'm still team sealed Mike! However, for open-concept rooms and/or rooms on hard slabs low-tuned subs make much sense.

This may seem counterintuitive. But to me, lower port tunes sound more a like a sealed enclosure than higher. @Tom Vodhanel have you noticed any audible differences between the V3611 and TV36 with music (even with FR matched)? I'm not talking about sub 20Hz synthetic bass music. I'm talking about recordings of music with real instruments.
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post #48080 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I'm still team sealed Mike! However, for open-concept rooms and/or rooms on hard slabs low-tuned subs make much sense.

This may seem counterintuitive. But to me, lower port tunes sound more a like a sealed enclosure than higher. @Tom Vodhanel have you noticed any audible differences between the V3611 and TV36 with music (even with FR matched)? I'm not talking about sub 20Hz synthetic bass music. I'm talking about recordings of music with real instruments.
I'm right there with you on the sealed side. I wonder if the new neo's or iPal's will fit in the S360# series sub cabinets.

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post #48081 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I'm right there with you on the sealed side. I wonder if the new neo's or iPal's will fit in the S360# series sub cabinets.
I believe so. My guesstimate would be ~9dB less than this
(~6dB with 4000W torpedo amp): https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=138&mset=154
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post #48082 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I'm still team sealed Mike! However, for open-concept rooms and/or rooms on hard slabs low-tuned subs make much sense.

This may seem counterintuitive. But to me, lower port tunes sound more a like a sealed enclosure than higher. @Tom Vodhanel have you noticed any audible differences between the V3611 and TV36 with music (even with FR matched)? I'm not talking about sub 20Hz synthetic bass music. I'm talking about recordings of music with real instruments.
This makes total sense. The further port tune is away from audible frequencies, the less impact it will have on any sound we can hear with music as far as group delay or ringing. I still think any difference between sealed and ported once port tune is down to 20 Hz or below is much less than most believe even if we can notice a difference in sound between a ported and sealed sub when we switch back and forth. Not saying we can't hear some difference in how subs sound, but I would bet that level matched and eq'd for the same low end response, if 20 AVS'ers were to try to determine ported or sealed in blind listening test with any of the well known ID subs, the results would be random guessing. And those who would bet their lives that sealed are better for music would be just as likely to pick ported as the winner for sound quality on music. The fact is, it is not possible despite how impartial we try to be, to remove sighted bias from our perception of what we hear.

I think on movies, ported subs would be easier to pick out from sealed due to TR disparity even if SPL were matched with sealed. But on sealed subs, my money says the sealed fanatics would eat crow if they tried to pick out sealed from ported in blind testing.

By the way, I'm not strongly in either camp, although I currently run sealed subs. Wouldn't be opposed to switching to 14-15ish Hz ported setup, as this would be a lot cheaper and offer more ROI than going to D/O sealed for 5ish dB. If I had money to burn though, I'd probably buy two more of my drivers or two Ipal 18's and go D/O.
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post #48083 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 06:59 AM
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Watching some of the ipal videos on YouTube further pumps me up. 2 TV36ipal is gonna rock the place and should be a nice step up from 2 s3601s


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post #48084 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
I feel they should all have sufficient mid bass but want the most output down low as I can.

*meant to edit my post, not quote myself
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Hi,

I'm quoting your post to make a point that I think may be helpful for some people. I am really excited about the new subwoofers, and excited for some of my AVS friends who are already ordering them. I have absolute confidence that the new subs will be terrific!

One of the issues that I think sometimes gets overlooked is the range of preference that we see with respect to bass. Some people like to emphasize mid-bass frequencies more, for some content, and some people like to emphasize low-bass frequencies more for some content. The amount of room gain that someone gets will always be a factor in that, but the room gain won't change. And, as people turn-up the volume on their subs, all of the bass frequencies will get louder in the same proportion.

Those listeners who don't have a miniDSP to create their own house curves are somewhat at the mercy of the content, or to some extent at the mercy of pre-programmed software such as Audyssey's DEQ. In my opinion, one of the most important elements of the new low-tuned subwoofers will be the room size control (RSC). That will let listeners change the relative emphasis of mid-bass to low-bass, depending on the amount of room gain they get, and depending on their personal preferences.

I remember that when Jeff introduced the new low-tuned Cap 4000ULF and even the 14Hz port tune Cap 2400ULF, he ended-up increasing the range of adjustability in his low-frequency adjust (LFA) feature, in response to user requests. I believe that he went from a range of about 12db to about 18db.

I haven't heard Tom comment yet on whether that feature is changing at all in comparison to the range used on the older vented models, but I think it is something that is going to be especially valuable on the new subs. If you want to have 115db (or more) at 10 or 12Hz, you may not want to also have to listen to 120db (or more) at 60 or 80Hz in order to have it. People using miniDSP's, and playing with BEQ, won't care so much about this feature, but I believe that many people will find the RSC especially helpful with the new low-tuned subs.

I had been thinking about that as I read all of the recent discussion, and your post made a great segue to mention the potential importance of the RSC in getting just what you want. I believe that any of the 13.5Hz tuned subs will give you all the low-bass you will want. Now, it's just a matter of balancing your personal preferences for the proportion of low-bass to mid-bass, as you turn-up your volume.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #48085 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 07:19 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Thank you Mike ! Since I will be getting in at the pre order pricing Tom’s description of the Neo sound signature intrigues me.


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Marantz 7011- Panasonic UB-820- Xbox One X - No projector at the moment :(* - Elite Screen's 2:35:1 AT 115' - PSA MTM 110's L/C/R - Mixed Surrounds - SVS Elevations Atmos X2 - Dual PSA TV36 B&C Neo's *MiniDSP HD* Took the Red Pill BEQ

Last edited by CallingMrBenzo; 04-21-2019 at 07:26 AM.
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post #48086 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 07:49 AM
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These new low tune subs look great but my only question is why 3 flavors of the same size sub? A single 18" would be nice for those that don't have the room for a massive sub but still would like a lower tune option.
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post #48087 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Thank you for this post, long timers of PSA subs like myself and others appreciate this as well and have all the faith in Tom and he knows where our bread is buttered, I don't need 3rd party confirmation but some do and I believe Tom will provide that to the naysayers soon, I can't wait.....

Like another PSA old timing person said I believe Tom is on a mission and this is just the tip of what's to come.
I have to mention Jim F as well, I really miss him and I'm sure Tom does as well...........
As Marc mentioned, these drivers specs are known, have been around for years and have been tested. Anybody naysaying is clueless

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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Is there any appreciable output differences between the 3 or will they all be fairly similar to the V3611 ≥20Hz?

What are the tuning frequencies of the V3611 & V1811?

Port wind not withstanding, is there any appreciable difference in TR between the 3 drivers? Is there any difference in TR between the TV36 and V3611 cabinets?
I agree!
In fact, I'm quite tempted to order a V36ipal at the pre-order price. If only I could trade other brand subs in (I have way too many at the moment).
Im sure they step up at least 3db per driver as you climb for the ds to Ipal, even more from the v36 drivers to the neo. The only question I have is whether 1 ice amp for the Ipals is able to get the full potential out of it. I think if you had all 3 in a room, you would be able to tell the differences less between the ds and ipal in output but distortion between the 2 would be noticeable, in some content when pushed hard. Theres a reason they want $800 for the 18 and $1200 for the 21, they are proud of it, as they should be. If someone was buying 4, Id say ds all day, just 2 go Ipal.

8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


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post #48088 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 09:52 AM
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Maybe I missed it, did anyone see how much the IPAL version is going to weigh? Also wondering if it's safe to use a handtruck to move them around, with the legs and bottom port.. Getting older, can't really hulk stuff around as easy any more
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post #48089 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
These new low tune subs look great but my only question is why 3 flavors of the same size sub? A single 18" would be nice for those that don't have the room for a massive sub but still would like a lower tune option.
Maybe a future model? Seems the dual purpose rooms are being left out here. It also could help on the budget for those of us without huge sums of dispensable income, although we are now dealing with no costs barred units as advertised.
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post #48090 of 53941 Old 04-21-2019, 11:21 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
These new low tune subs look great but my only question is why 3 flavors of the same size sub? A single 18" would be nice for those that don't have the room for a massive sub but still would like a lower tune option.


Just a pure guess, but it sounded like Tom was having a tough time selecting because there was enough difference between the 3. Doing three of the same minimizes the work up front while also giving him more data on which drivers are most popular. Then when he is ready to do the single driver ones he can keep things as is, or down select to the most popular model(s).

In other words, preserving his options, providing enough separation between models to make distinct tiers, and seeing how the market leans.

I could be totally wrong. All I do know at this point is these are exciting times in the PSA thread, these new subs look beastly!


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Last edited by FattyMcButterPants; 04-21-2019 at 02:24 PM.
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