Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1609 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #48241 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
With all the excitement over the new offerings, it's hard not to get caught up in the idea of what I might gain (probably in mid bass), by going with a neo or ipal. I really love the weight that the low tuned 2400 ULF brings to everything I hear, but a little more mid bass is always a good thing.



Although I do believe that you are correct, and the upgrade to MTM 210T's would probably be a much more substantial and noticeable upgrade.



One question concerning the placement of the MTM210C. With my current tv stand there is only about 9 inches height between the shelves under the tv, which means the 210C would not fit. My only other option would be to place the MTM 210C on a shelf above the tv and to point it down to the MLP. Would this be an acceptable option?
You could always go full gangsta style like I did and "modify" your tv stand lol
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post #48242 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
Can you post a picture? I had a similar issue and I used some cheap angled aluminum strapping I found at Home Depot to add more range to my TV mount to raise it a couple of inches.
Here is a pic of my current set up
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post #48243 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
Here is a pic of my current set up
You could put the MTM on the top shelf and then put the TV on top of it.

Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
Sub: PSA TV36-iPal
Speakers: 3 x Chane A2.4 LCR, Klipsch Quintet Surrounds
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post #48244 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
You could always go full gangsta style like I did and "modify" your tv stand lol
Looks great, but don't think it will work for me. I made a riser which raised the tv up 12 inches so the MTM 210C could be placed under the tv, but we did not like or feel comfortable with how high the tv was for viewing.
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post #48245 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 06:10 PM
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hey guys, im in need of some help.

im currently doing a full calibration on my subs. i've time aligned them and set my own house curve. now im trying to get the subs to phase well with the speakers. if i set the sub distance to 5m (16.4 ft) the centre is in perfect phase with the sub but then the Front L&R is out of wack, and if i set the sub to 3.5m (11.4 ft) the front L&R is perfect but then the Centre is out of wack????

do i just keep going through the distance and hope for the best, or am i at a comprimise?

also one sub is 2.2m (7.2 ft) away and the other is 1.1m (3.6 ft) away from the MLP. when i put a delay in for approximately 4ms its not a perfect summation, yet if i set the delay to 12ms i get a good summation. because the delay is set so high now will it effect the subs with the speakers in a bad way?

this is what ive followed to set my subs up
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...topics/2566897

TV: LG OLED 65inch C7 | Bluray Player: OPPO UDP-203
A/V Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2085 | Surge Protector: THOR PS10
Speakers - Front: Klipsch RP-160M | Center: Klipsch RP-450C | Side and Rear Surrounds: Klipsch RP-250S | Subs: Dual PSA S3600i
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post #48246 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
Looks great, but don't think it will work for me. I made a riser which raised the tv up 12 inches so the MTM 210C could be placed under the tv, but we did not like or feel comfortable with how high the tv was for viewing.
Can you remove the top shelf on the stand and then wall mount the tv a hair above the MTM then? That way you won't really be raising the tv too much.
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post #48247 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Lol
Please explain how a 48" tall sub will work as a end table?
Umm, obviously, your couches are way too low. Stilts.
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post #48248 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
Can you remove the top shelf on the stand and then wall mount the tv a hair above the MTM then? That way you won't really be raising the tv too much.
The top shelf could be removed but there are metal brackets pointing up that would be visible, and the cross braces need to be attached to the top shelf to provide the rigid structure for the stand. You got me thinking, I wonder if I could remove the top shelf and use a 2x2's to increase the height the required distance of about 2 inches to fit the MTM 210C under the top shelf. My only other choice would be to mount the MTM 210C on a shelf above the tv and angle it down towards the MLP and that's a pretty substantial center channel to place above my oled tv.
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post #48249 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
The top shelf could be removed but there are metal brackets pointing up that would be visible, and the cross braces need to be attached to the top shelf to provide the rigid structure for the stand. You got me thinking, I wonder if I could remove the top shelf and use a 2x2's to increase the height the required distance of about 2 inches to fit the MTM 210C under the top shelf. My only other choice would be to mount the MTM 210C on a shelf above the tv and angle it down towards the MLP and that's a pretty substantial center channel to place above my oled tv.
There is always a way!

I have my tv on top of my 210C. It makes the Tv the perfect night when laying in bed.
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post #48250 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 07:08 PM
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Removing the top shelf and blocking it up two inches would be my first choice. Of course that depends on what is involved and how difficult it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
The top shelf could be removed but there are metal brackets pointing up that would be visible, and the cross braces need to be attached to the top shelf to provide the rigid structure for the stand. You got me thinking, I wonder if I could remove the top shelf and use a 2x2's to increase the height the required distance of about 2 inches to fit the MTM 210C under the top shelf. My only other choice would be to mount the MTM 210C on a shelf above the tv and angle it down towards the MLP and that's a pretty substantial center channel to place above my oled tv.
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post #48251 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by zeuspaul View Post
Removing the top shelf and blocking it up two inches would be my first choice. Of course that depends on what is involved and how difficult it is.
This will definitely be my first option. I hope it works. It not then option #2 , mount it above the tv.
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post #48252 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
You could always go full gangsta style like I did and "modify" your tv stand lol


Full gangster is when you rip it down and start over!! Lol


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post #48253 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
This will definitely be my first option. I hope it works. It not then option #2 , mount it above the tv.
Pull your mains out and build/buy a CC stand and you can angle the speaker however you want. Above TV will be difficult and place the tweeter too high in reference to your mains, you'll have an uneven pan from left to right or opposite...
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post #48254 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 08:43 PM
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Hi all,

Quick update.

We're likely limited to 10-12 tv36 cabinets per week from our vendor. I had planned on two weeks on those(20-24) but demand has me strongly considering three weeks now. So 30-36. I don't think I'll be able to do four weeks as that's an entire month with me getting nothing else. If we run out of one or two of the current cabinets to make the new subs top priority that isn't a big deal. But running a full MONTH without getting anything else. I would anticipate being out of 3-4-5 of our most popular sellers. And then it would take a while to get THOSE back caught up. It would be a domino scenario I don't want on my plate.

So, I'm probably going to call it a pre-order at three weeks(worth of cabinets). So 30-36 cabinets.

The good news is that by moving from two to three weeks still gives me a fair number of slots left for those debating on ordering.

The bad news is I've pretty much cleaned out the B&C warehouse for all available ipal18 and the slots left for those AND the neo version are also very limited. The base model is fine as we always have a few pallets of those woofers here. If anyone wants either B&C option please try to contact me in the next 1-2 days. Otherwise I could still take the order but it may not ship until June when the next boatload of B&C woofers arrive from Italy..

In other news the spray booth is humming now(knock on jobu) and we should be 10)% caught up with all current orders within 2-4 business days(including a couple of big distributor orders).


Me when I walk to the next building and see the booth working...


www.youtube.com/watch?v=b44FCgewbdc&t=2m22s


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post #48255 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
I’d think 1 of the iPals would be close to 2400ulf down low. 2 iPals, I’d think, would beat it fairly easy.


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I agree on output. From what I heard, The standard 18" drivers are measuring quite well in the larger cab.
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post #48256 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kelly.mcaloney View Post
Full gangster is when you rip it down and start over!! Lol


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I only did that so my center doesn't block my pj screen when it's down lol
#condoproblems
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post #48257 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi all,

Quick update.

We're likely limited to 10-12 tv36 cabinets per week from our vendor. I had planned on two weeks on those(20-24) but demand has me strongly considering three weeks now. So 30-36. I don't think I'll be able to do four weeks as that's an entire month with me getting nothing else. If we run out of one or two of the current cabinets to make the new subs top priority that isn't a big deal. But running a full MONTH without getting anything else. I would anticipate being out of 3-4-5 of our most popular sellers. And then it would take a while to get THOSE back caught up. It would be a domino scenario I don't want on my plate.

So, I'm probably going to call it a pre-order at three weeks(worth of cabinets). So 30-36 cabinets.

The good news is that by moving from two to three weeks still gives me a fair number of slots left for those debating on ordering.

The bad news is I've pretty much cleaned out the B&C warehouse for all available ipal18 and the slots left for those AND the neo version are also very limited. The base model is fine as we always have a few pallets of those woofers here. If anyone wants either B&C option please try to contact me in the next 1-2 days. Otherwise I could still take the order but it may not ship until June when the next boatload of B&C woofers arrive from Italy..

In other news the spray booth is humming now(knock on jobu) and we should be 10)% caught up with all current orders within 2-4 business days(including a couple of big distributor orders).


Me when I walk to the next building and see the booth working...


www.youtube.com/watch?v=b44FCgewbdc&t=2m22s


Tom V.
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Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.
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post #48258 of 53131 Old 04-25-2019, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Pull your mains out and build/buy a CC stand and you can angle the speaker however you want. Above TV will be difficult and place the tweeter too high in reference to your mains, you'll have an uneven pan from left to right or opposite...
The difference in tweeter height is definitely a concern, but if I buy the MTM 210T's and place the MTM 210C on the shelf below the tv then the tweeter heights will be lower then the towers which is not optimal either. Being that I don't have a dedicated home theater room means compromises sometimes need to be made. I am so jealous of you lucky guys that have dedicated home theaters.
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post #48259 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by LennS View Post
The difference in tweeter height is definitely a concern, but if I buy the MTM 210T's and place the MTM 210C on the shelf below the tv then the tweeter heights will be lower then the towers which is not optimal either. Being that I don't have a dedicated home theater room means compromises sometimes need to be made. I am so jealous of you lucky guys that have dedicated home theaters.

FWIW, I think that having all of your tweeters at exactly the same height is much less important than having the tweeter in the center channel at approximately ear height. Most people can become accustomed to some degree of difference in panning, where it isn't noticeable at all. But, dialogue needs to seem as it it is coming from the screen, and for that to work well, the CC tweeter really needs to point at your ears. Unless the screen is very high, you may not want your CC to be very high either.

I would just concentrate on getting the CC below the screen, using whatever method you choose, and then make sure that you tilt it slightly so that it points right at your seated ear height. That will help a lot with dialogue clarity in movies, and can be especially important when dialogue is mixed a little low compared to ambient sounds, or where difficult accents are involved.

For movies, the center channel is probably the most important component in your audio system, and that's where I would want to compromise the least in both quality and placement. It took me a while to fully appreciate that.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #48260 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
The difference in tweeter height is definitely a concern, but if I buy the MTM 210T's and place the MTM 210C on the shelf below the tv then the tweeter heights will be lower then the towers which is not optimal either. Being that I don't have a dedicated home theater room means compromises sometimes need to be made. I am so jealous of you lucky guys that have dedicated home theaters.
Mine is not a dedicated theater but a multipurpose room. I do have my center under the screen on center stand but it is angled ear level just like the mains. While having it exactly ear level height is the ideal...as long as you have your center (whether its below or above screen) angled at ear level you should be fine.

Edit: I see Mike beat me the punch as usual.
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post #48261 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
I only did that so my center doesn't block my pj screen when it's down lol
#condoproblems


Just to be clear, I wasn't knocking your idea, I think it's awesome, the only reason I commented was I had the exact same problem, and after a lot of consideration it got a little out of control!


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post #48262 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly.mcaloney View Post
Just to be clear, I wasn't knocking your idea, I think it's awesome, the only reason I commented was I had the exact same problem, and after a lot of consideration it got a little out of control!


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Oh I know, no worries at all
As far as the tweeter aiming towards me I just put some of those sorbothane pads under the front corners to angle it up, works like a charm!
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post #48263 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
I think for those of us with subs located near our mains, this makes a lot of sense. The pro audio drivers are designed to play much higher frequencies than the typical home theater subwoofer drivers. Check out the attached Full Range Response graphs between an iPal based system and a 2400ULF.
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Good point. I am using actually using a 125Hz crossover. I determined this was the best blend (Funk horns) via REW and my ears & chest.

The driver tested in the X21 cab is the B&C 21DS115-4 driver not the IPAL. I do believe your point is still valid.
Please excuse the intrusion, but I wanted to correct and clarify this very out of context comparison. The comparison above is showing the DSP optimized response of the the 2400ULF, while I hadn't provided Josh with DSP settings for the single port tune when he tested (I hadn't taken a clean outdoor measurements with 1 port when Josh said he would measure this mode). While the 21DS115 does have a lot of upper bass efficiency, the same measurement of any amplified or otherwise EQ'd subwoofer does not tell us anything about the upper bass capability, just the frequency response the designer settled on. Below you can see the response of the X21 with 2 ports open and the filters I had published entered in the iNuke 3000DSP to get the intended low frequency response. While the tuning and extension isn't quite as low, you can see the frequency response parallels more closely. Again, this graph alone tells you nothing about the capability of a closed system with EQ/DSP in the loop.



While we can't always be certain if it's the amplifier, driver, or DSP/electronic protections are setting the limits of a closed system, you can get a better idea of the before-EQ response and the maximum capabilities by looking at both the Max Burst testing and Maximum Long Term (maximum sweep level). The caveat to understand is that the sweeps shown at Data-Bass are always pessimistic in the upper bass due to the sweeps starting at low frequency rather than high frequency. There are benefit and detriments to sweeping either direction, but with most powered subwoofers you are heating up and stressing the woofer with the low frequency response before getting to the upper half of the range. In common cases with significant EQ to balance the upper bass with the lower frequency like is seen with the X21, much more power is needed at the start of the bottom-up sweep than at the top end. A big part of this is simply the measurement software used, and different software and techniques do it differently with different strengths and weaknesses.

If we look at the long term sweeps we can that while the 21" woofer has more headroom, the 2400ULF still has a good deal more headroom above 30Hz. Conversely, we don't see all of the 21" woofer's headroom as the lower frequencies set the practical maximum sweep level:


The CEA Max Burst testing is done 1 tone burst at a time (the burst spreads over about 1/3rd octave). This means the limit at 10Hz has no impact on testing the limit at 100Hz, and the short duration doesn't heat up the woofer. You can read more about the very involved test methods here at Data-Bass. Here we can see the upper bass headroom in the systems more clearly when the rest of the frequency range and frequency response shape doesn't limit the measurement:


Getting back to the originally posted image, let's compare the Max Burst from the 2400ULF vs the low tuned X21, where you see there is an advantage, but certainly not as big as the basic response suggest:


The well designed B&C woofer does offer low distortion in the upper bass. The THD graphs as displayed at Data-Bass can get very tricky to compare, as you really need to cross reference everything with the actual SPL of the sweep level, but in that data we can see the larger B&C driver has a definite advantage with very low THD in the upper bass up to an impressive level (distortion rises over ~120dB) over this particular JTR woofer, and then a disadvantage once the most linear excursion limits start getting exceeded at lower frequencies and higher excursions as seen in the 16-35Hz range of the 1 Port X21 THD testing. The distortion rise starts in the low 20s for the 2 port version rather than ~16Hz due to the port contribution.

Generally you don't often see so much detail about a subwoofer as we saw with the X21 due to the fact that at the time it was offered as more of an Assemble YourSelf option. Josh tested it with processing and without DSP, along with having lots of power vs the clean limits in his 20kW amplifier.

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post #48264 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 10:26 AM
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In regards to center channel speakers, I haven't heard anyone discuss running phantom with no center. It is a viable option that can work quite well. It also has very high WAF and lower the amplification burden.

Another point in regards to the Klipsch vs PSA is that in addition to overatted sensitivities, the Klipsch are also fairly complex impedence loads. If you look at various impedence sweeps of Klipsch towers they often dip near or even below 4Ω. A 6Ω nominal rating would be more accurate IMO. IME, high quality amplification is needed to get the most out of Klipsch towers (higher end AVR or external amplification). The friendly load of the PSA is a plus in addition to the sensitivity.

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post #48265 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
In regards to center channel speakers, I haven't heard anyone discuss running phantom with no center. It is a viable option that can work quite well. It also has very high WAF and lower the amplification burden.

Another point in regards to the Klipsch vs PSA is that in addition to overatted sensitivities, the Klipsch are also fairly complex impedence loads. If you look at various impedence sweeps of Klipsch towers they often dip near or even below 4Ω. A 6Ω nominal rating would be more accurate IMO. IME, high quality amplification is needed to get the most out of Klipsch towers (higher end AVR or external amplification). The friendly load of the PSA is a plus in addition to the sensitivity.

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I think I know the answer, but what, really, is the benefit of making speakers lower ohm ratings?
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post #48266 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think a lot depends on how Tom chooses to use the DSP. Something that I have thought he might do is to allow the iPal driver, and perhaps the Neo driver variation, to have a little more SPL down low than the standard version has. As he said, it's just a few mouse clicks in order to redistribute more bass down low, if the designer chooses to do it.
Am I correct that you are referring to the native FR?
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I had a conversation with B&C about this and the surround does make a difference in the mid/upper bass. I can't explain it as well as he did, but it has something to do with how the cloth surround absorbs energy rather than reflecting it back to the cone. The foam/rubber surround is commonly used in higher excursion drivers because it is much cheaper and easier to manufacturer and those drivers are typically crossed over no higher than 100hz anyway.
@Tom Vodhanel , @Mark Seaton , @Ricci or anyone else who can elaborate on this? The JTR Captivator 118HT is the only sub I've personally encountered with the "accordion" surround (that I know of at least). My Funk 15.H subs and 12.2HP mains have dual 15" and 12" drivers respectively, but they aren't visible (I'll have to ask Nathan).

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post #48267 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Please excuse the intrusion, but I wanted to correct and clarify this very out of context comparison.
Thanks Mark for the very informative post. I can't speak for everyone on the PSA thread, but I love learning more about the technical aspects of audio. As you can tell by browsing this thread, those of us taking advantage of the pre-order of the new low tuned offering are excited to see how it performs. Since the 2400ULF is a highly regarded low-tuned sub, I was trying to use the data-bass measurements to gauge what to expect. Obviously 2 18" iPal drivers aren't going to be the same as a single 21" driver in the X21.
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Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
Sub: PSA TV36-iPal
Speakers: 3 x Chane A2.4 LCR, Klipsch Quintet Surrounds
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post #48268 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
In regards to center channel speakers, I haven't heard anyone discuss running phantom with no center. It is a viable option that can work quite well. It also has very high WAF and lower the amplification burden.

Another point in regards to the Klipsch vs PSA is that in addition to overatted sensitivities, the Klipsch are also fairly complex impedence loads. If you look at various impedence sweeps of Klipsch towers they often dip near or even below 4Ω. A 6Ω nominal rating would be more accurate IMO. IME, high quality amplification is needed to get the most out of Klipsch towers (higher end AVR or external amplification). The friendly load of the PSA is a plus in addition to the sensitivity.

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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
I think I know the answer, but what, really, is the benefit of making speakers lower ohm ratings?
Its always best to use external power that can handle 4 ohm at least when using lower ohm rating speakers. I have tested my Klipsch on my rotel amps vs the Integra AVR and it sounded more dynamic with Rotel amps. Most high end speakers have less than 8 ohms knowing that it will be paired with high sensivity external amp. Maybe that's why people say PSA speakers are louder than Klipsch cause they are using AVRs and not taking advantage of external amp to get most out of their other lower ohm speakers.

Quick google took me to this site and here is short quick answer. https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-impedance-3134705

About Speaker Impedance
When talking about things like watts, voltage, and power, many audio writers use the analogy of water flowing through a pipe because it's an analogy that people can visualize and relate to.

Think of the speaker as a pipe. The audio signal — your music — acts as the water flowing through the pipe. The bigger the pipe, the more easily water can flow through it. Bigger pipes also handle more volume of flowing water. A speaker with a lower impedance is like a bigger pipe in that it lets more electrical signal through and allows it to flow more easily.

As a result, you see amplifiers that are rated to deliver 100 watts at 8 ohms impedance or 150 or 200 watts at 4 ohms impedance. The lower the impedance, the more easily electricity (the signal or music) flows through the speaker.

A lot of amplifiers aren't designed to work with 4-ohm speakers. Using the pipe analogy, you can put a bigger pipe in, but it'll only carry more water (audio) if you have a pump (amplifier) powerful enough to provide the extra flow of water.

Theater room: Sony 45es | 120 inch screen | Panasonic BDT500 | Rotel RMB-1077 | Outlaw Audio 976 | Klipsch RP-280F/RP-450C/RP-160M (x4) | Funk Audio subs (x2) | MiniDSP 2x4HD | Crowson D-501/Shadow-8 Actuators (x2) | Monster Power Conditioner | GIK acoustic panels

TV Room: Panny 60 inch | Rotel RMB-1075 | Rotel RSP-1068 | Axiom Audio M60/VP150/QS8
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post #48269 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
I think I know the answer, but what, really, is the benefit of making speakers lower ohm ratings?
More power drawn from a high-current amplification source perhaps? I think its easier to answer the question, "what is the benefit of easier to drive speakers?"

Have you already read this review David?

https://www.hometheatershack.com/for.../topics/113313

I asked someone I know about their Reference Premiers and discovered they upgraded to RF7-IIIs. Apparently the RPs seemed to get strained/harsh at high volumes.

Klipsch's naming scheme is more difficult to fully understand these days (for me at least).
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post #48270 of 53131 Old 04-26-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Its always best to use external power that can handle 4 ohm at least when using lower ohm rating speakers. I have tested my Klipsch on my rotel amps vs the Integra AVR and it sounded more dynamic with Rotel amps. Most high end speakers have less than 8 ohms knowing that it will be paired with high sensivity external amp.
What’s a user to do when a manufacturer is not fully transparent (I hesitate to use the term honest) about the ratings? How are your's rated?
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