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post #48331 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
Your opinion on your PSA speakers does matter to me. It tells me that these speakers are something special and definitely worth my serious consideration.

I'm also glad to have heard some input about Klipsch because the RP-8000F and the RF-7 111 are a couple of other speakers that I have been considering, although I am definitely leaning towards the PSA. Although if I did go with either Klipsch, their center channel would fit on the shelf below the tv.
Old school Klipsch are fantastic. I had Fortes (version 1-and actually still have them) that I bought new many years ago.
PSA 210's were the first speaker to convince me to retire the Forte's.

I got the last 3 210's of the first run offered. Tom told me back then that I was the 2nd to replace their beloved Fortes within the first run of 210's.

The 210T's would be even better..........

Oh, and as said before s3000i make great speaker stands for 210's
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post #48332 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 01:48 PM
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I need some help with a decision on the TV36ipal from you guys. Late last year I purchased a JTR 2400 (not the ULF version) to replace my SVS SB16. I was looking for something with a little more umph down low, but at the same time didn’t want to sacrifice too much mid bass chest pump. All the talk on AVS was how good the 2400 was, which it is, and is why I chose this sub. The purchase was a definite upgrade, but as they say, there is no free lunch. I’m sure I am giving up a little mid-range bass by using a sub that is tuned down to 10 hz. Now Tom is coming out with the TV36 series of subs. By what I have read, these subs will dig low (although maybe not as low as the 2400) but still offer the mid-range bass that PSA subs are known for.

I don’t consider myself a bass head, but just want a sub that can go low as well as slam my chest when those 50 cal guns go off. I really love the 2400, but I will always wonder what I am missing, if anything, in the mid-bass area.

I don’t have a dedicated home theater. My set up is in my living room, and I have an open floor plan. There are only three walls in my room, with the other side open to the kitchen, hallway and family room. I am 98% home theater. I watch movies at around -22 to -25 MV and I have my sub set hot at around +8. I don’t have room for more than one sub. I have a matching set of MTM-210's for my LCR. If I decide to move forward, I would most likely go with the ipal version just so I don’t second guess myself down the line.

Thoughts from the group?
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post #48333 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
I need some help with a decision on the TV36ipal from you guys. Late last year I purchased a JTR 2400 (not the ULF version) to replace my SVS SB16. I was looking for something with a little more umph down low, but at the same time didn’t want to sacrifice too much mid bass chest pump. All the talk on AVS was how good the 2400 was, which it is, and is why I chose this sub. The purchase was a definite upgrade, but as they say, there is no free lunch. I’m sure I am giving up a little mid-range bass by using a sub that is tuned down to 10 hz. Now Tom is coming out with the TV36 series of subs. By what I have read, these subs will dig low (although maybe not as low as the 2400) but still offer the mid-range bass that PSA subs are known for.

I don’t consider myself a bass head, but just want a sub that can go low as well as slam my chest when those 50 cal guns go off. I really love the 2400, but I will always wonder what I am missing, if anything, in the mid-bass area.

I don’t have a dedicated home theater. My set up is in my living room, and I have an open floor plan. There are only three walls in my room, with the other side open to the kitchen, hallway and family room. I am 98% home theater. I watch movies at around -22 to -25 MV and I have my sub set hot at around +8. I don’t have room for more than one sub. I have a matching set of MTM-210's for my LCR. If I decide to move forward, I would most likely go with the ipal version just so I don’t second guess myself down the line.

Thoughts from the group?

Hi,

Curiosity is a powerful thing, and it's hard to stop it by telling it no. Most of us may not feel quite that kind of pull, if we are entirely satisfied with what we have. This is one of those times that I would probably advocate just going for it, and I agree with you about trying the iPal version. If you can afford to buy the PSA sub, without selling your JTR sub, you will be able to do a head-to-head comparison in your room.

Based on what you have said, and on what I expect from that sub, I think that the iPal will outperform the JTR sub for your purposes. And, it may outperform the smaller Cap 2400 in all respects. If it does, you can then sell the Cap 2400 with no regrets. If by chance it didn't, you would only be out return shipping on the TV36.

It also occurred to me that, by taking advantage of the pre-order pricing, you could probably sell the TV36 to someone else for about what you paid for it, including shipping. I haven't done the math, but that's certainly a possibility. It seems like a pretty no-risk proposition to me. Based on the combination of curiosity and mid-bass interest, I believe that I would do this, if I were you.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #48334 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
I don’t have a dedicated home theater. My set up is in my living room, and I have an open floor plan. There are only three walls in my room, with the other side open to the kitchen, hallway and family room....I watch movies at around -22 to -25 MV and I have my sub set hot at around +8. I don’t have room for more than one sub.

Thoughts from the group?

IMO, not having room for a second sub means optimizing placement is very important (if you have options), and your listening volume is also a bit low for seeking midbass chest punch. Without a nearfield sub, quite a lot SPL is needed for what you desire. There’s folks that run near reference levels that still don’t get a lot of midbass kick or tactile bass in the chest.

I say give the TV36 ipal a listen, but it might not be inherently different than the 2400 if you can’t change either of these variables. The TV36i might present itself with stronger midbass due to design and will certainly have a unique sound signature versus the 2400, but whether or not it translates to what you desire only you can decide.

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post #48335 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Sweet, 10” or possibly a 12” dual opposed sealed design depending on what Tom goes with. These would look very classy with veneer for smaller listening spaces! I have a friend finishing a new media room I’m helping sub shop for, and he typically listens at modest volumes; these would fit the bill nicely, wonder how far off from production.

That’s the port for the new TV36 Tom added for scale, pretty crazy!
Anyone know what driver is being used for the 10inch?

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realise someone posted this info earlier

TV: LG OLED 65inch C7 | Bluray Player: OPPO UDP-203
A/V Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2085 | Surge Protector: THOR PS10
Speakers - Front: Klipsch RP-160M | Center: Klipsch RP-450C | Side and Rear Surrounds: Klipsch RP-250S | Subs: Dual PSA S3600i

Last edited by Karami; 04-27-2019 at 04:07 PM.
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post #48336 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Oh, and as said before s3000i make great speaker stands for 210's
Got any pics?

TV: LG OLED 65inch C7 | Bluray Player: OPPO UDP-203
A/V Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2085 | Surge Protector: THOR PS10
Speakers - Front: Klipsch RP-160M | Center: Klipsch RP-450C | Side and Rear Surrounds: Klipsch RP-250S | Subs: Dual PSA S3600i
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post #48337 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Old school Klipsch are fantastic. I had Fortes (version 1-and actually still have them) that I bought new many years ago.
PSA 210's were the first speaker to convince me to retire the Forte's.

I got the last 3 210's of the first run offered. Tom told me back then that I was the 2nd to replace their beloved Fortes within the first run of 210's.

The 210T's would be even better..........

Oh, and as said before s3000i make great speaker stands for 210's
Whey Yes they are. We have my grand fathers old pair of 1982 K-horns over at the shop and they kick ass. One of the few Klipsch speakers that are truly high efficient. I remember popping in Metallica black album and hitting 120db playing Enter Sandman with a little 50x2 Kenwood Stereo receiver. Too big for the house, so my lowly PSA speakers will have to suffice . I too have not even thought about another set of speakers since buying the PSA's. My autographed pair of ser# 01/02 210T's probably went up in value now that Jim left. lol
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post #48338 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 04:34 PM
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So just placed an order for two TV36 NEO’s! I haven’t been this excited in a long, long time. Just wanted to say thanks to everybody for the great thread, and a special thanks to Tom for answering my questions, he’s a super nice guy.
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post #48339 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
The sealed S360# series subs roll off faster after their native frequency response compared to the S3000I. I found this out when I owned the S3000I and took some measurements. You could also try more sub positions and see if it helps if not then it's time to add more subs.
I have tried all available positions, i have one in the front Left Corner and one in the Rear Right Corner. i'm trying to talk the wife into me getting another one. . . . by talking i actually mean that im trying to break it easy to her that we ARE! getting another one. . . . or two lol


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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
They look good except for the rapid roll off @20hz , they look similar to my results when I first got them and thought they should have a much more gradual roll off down low and I tried running RC with the RSC in all different positions and could never seem to get it right. I tried moving the subs in small increments and alternating driver orientation towards side wall/front wall and firing into room and I saw improvement. One of the biggest improvement was a close mic pattern when running RC software and taking several measurements with REW at various seat locations. I ended up taking some sweeps with the UMIK a few inches in back of the LP and that seemed to do the trick so I moved the MLP back a bit. Just like Hop said it's all about location in relationship to MLP.....
Thank for all the charts and the info. the V18 chart is awesome because that was the other subs i was looking at. looks like its very similar to my S36 responce.
i have already moved the mic forward and back and left and right, that is the best i can do for my space at the moment, i just didnt get the golden room lottery full of room gain.
ive also measured my subs in all positions i could, 10 (ish) locations in total. With just the 2 subs, where they are now is the best combined response i could get.
the RSC i found for me works best somewhere around the three quarter mark.


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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
His S36 was only down from 117 dB to 107 dB going from 20 Hz to 10 Hz - big difference in overall roll off!
im mega new to ULF, whats a good SPL for 15hz and under? should it be flat from 20hz to 10hz or with a house curve would it keep rising slightly above 20hz?

TV: LG OLED 65inch C7 | Bluray Player: OPPO UDP-203
A/V Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2085 | Surge Protector: THOR PS10
Speakers - Front: Klipsch RP-160M | Center: Klipsch RP-450C | Side and Rear Surrounds: Klipsch RP-250S | Subs: Dual PSA S3600i

Last edited by Karami; 04-27-2019 at 04:45 PM.
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post #48340 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 04:53 PM
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So The local retailer has sold out of S3600i. My question is what would be best to get out of the following.

Single S3000i $2500
Dual S3000i $5000
Single T-18 $5000
or wait for the shop i stock up again (whenever that my be) and grab another S3611 $3500 - $4000

My OCD is saying wait and get the new S36. any insight on this would be awesome.
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TV: LG OLED 65inch C7 | Bluray Player: OPPO UDP-203
A/V Receiver: Yamaha RX-V2085 | Surge Protector: THOR PS10
Speakers - Front: Klipsch RP-160M | Center: Klipsch RP-450C | Side and Rear Surrounds: Klipsch RP-250S | Subs: Dual PSA S3600i
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post #48341 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Karami View Post
So The local retailer has sold out of S3600i. My question is what would be best to get out of the following.



Single S3000i $2500

Dual S3000i $5000

Single T-18 $5000

or wait for the shop i stock up again (whenever that my be) and grab another S3611 $3500 - $4000



My OCD is saying wait and get the new S36. any insight on this would be awesome.


No doubt the S3611


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #48342 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 06:10 PM
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Got any pics?
Found and older pic. Crappy quality but it shows the setup
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post #48343 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
IMO you would likely be good with an RC64II/III for a center with the PSA speakers. It's tuned a lot higher than the towers so it's probably in the real world closer to its rated specs for efficiency. Sound wise for HT I don't think you would notice much difference. All channel music I'm sure would be noticeable though.



Just try one from somewhere that has a good return policy.
They might work well together, but I would prefer to have the 3 front speakers from the same brand.
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post #48344 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Karami View Post
So The local retailer has sold out of S3600i. My question is what would be best to get out of the following.

Single S3000i $2500
Dual S3000i $5000
Single T-18 $5000
or wait for the shop i stock up again (whenever that my be) and grab another S3611 $3500 - $4000

My OCD is saying wait and get the new S36. any insight on this would be awesome.
Quote:
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No doubt the S3611
Trust your OCD on this one. I havnt heard one but most who have say the 15" to 18" difference in sound is significant so going the opposite direction may yield less than expected results

I would love dual S36xx here
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post #48345 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Karami View Post
So The local retailer has sold out of S3600i. My question is what would be best to get out of the following.

Single S3000i $2500
Dual S3000i $5000
Single T-18 $5000
or wait for the shop i stock up again (whenever that my be) and grab another S3611 $3500 - $4000

My OCD is saying wait and get the new S36. any insight on this would be awesome.
Dual 3000i. It's the sleeper in PSA lineup.
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post #48346 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
IMO you would likely be good with an RC64II/III for a center with the PSA speakers. It's tuned a lot higher than the towers so it's probably in the real world closer to its rated specs for efficiency. Sound wise for HT I don't think you would notice much difference. All channel music I'm sure would be noticeable though.
I would go with something else up front if possible. As a previous owner of 2 RF7ii's and a RC64ii IMO the 64 was definitely not up to snuff compared to the towers. Yes it can play loud but I always had difficulties understanding dialogue without cranking it up 4db or more. I tried it with 0 DSP and with Audyssey 32 and Dirac. Dirac was an improvement but changing center channels was the actual solution.

Of course this was in my room and not yours so ymmv!
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post #48347 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
These things are a god send:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Would have never been able to set-up my system in my living room without them due to space constraints. I now need a chair to put a blu-ray in as the photographic evidence reveals, but it is totally worth it. They can hold up to 100lbs and have two lag bolts per shelf into the studs. I used two of them to hold up my center channel that weighs almost 120lbs. Now that's a story for a different day, but if I didn't have my S7201 to stand on (and place the speaker on while I climbed up) at the time I am not sure how I would have gotten her up there.
Now i know where the footprints came from on the S7201's. Had you disclosed this i would have offered you 4500!
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post #48348 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What’s a user to do when a manufacturer is not fully transparent (I hesitate to use the term honest) about the ratings? How are your's rated?
If you ask me, it would be to never buy their speakers. Even if they perform well for the price based on their real specs as compared to the false specs Klipsch advertises. I wouldn't buy from a company that posts such blatantly false information. From what I can tell, I think some Klipsh products perform just fine for the cost when looking at the actual rather than falsely inflated specs.
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post #48349 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Whey Yes they are. We have my grand fathers old pair of 1982 K-horns over at the shop and they kick ass. One of the few Klipsch speakers that are truly high efficient. I remember popping in Metallica black album and hitting 120db playing Enter Sandman with a little 50x2 Kenwood Stereo receiver. Too big for the house, so my lowly PSA speakers will have to suffice . I too have not even thought about another set of speakers since buying the PSA's. My autographed pair of ser# 01/02 210T's probably went up in value now that Jim left. lol
In the end, retiring (but keeping) the Fortes in this room allowed dual S3000i from a single XS30, so that decision paid dividends later.

The 4 omh Fortes would put receiver amps into protection after a while of spirited listening. Sad But True ALWAYS did it. The external BK amp never shut down with the Fortes.

Klipsh has released new Heritage editions of the K Horn, Forte and others. All Heritage series are Made in USA
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post #48350 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 06:34 PM
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Dual 3000i. It's the sleeper in PSA lineup.
Very true in price to performance.

I cant imagine the S36XX wouldn't be an upgrade, especially if larger area?
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post #48351 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Curiosity is a powerful thing, and it's hard to stop it by telling it no. Most of us may not feel quite that kind of pull, if we are entirely satisfied with what we have. This is one of those times that I would probably advocate just going for it, and I agree with you about trying the iPal version. If you can afford to buy the PSA sub, without selling your JTR sub, you will be able to do a head-to-head comparison in your room.

Based on what you have said, and on what I expect from that sub, I think that the iPal will outperform the JTR sub for your purposes. And, it may outperform the smaller Cap 2400 in all respects. If it does, you can then sell the Cap 2400 with no regrets. If by chance it didn't, you would only be out return shipping on the TV36.

It also occurred to me that, by taking advantage of the pre-order pricing, you could probably sell the TV36 to someone else for about what you paid for it, including shipping. I haven't done the math, but that's certainly a possibility. It seems like a pretty no-risk proposition to me. Based on the combination of curiosity and mid-bass interest, I believe that I would do this, if I were you.

Regards,
Mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
IMO, not having room for a second sub means optimizing placement is very important (if you have options), and your listening volume is also a bit low for seeking midbass chest punch. Without a nearfield sub, quite a lot SPL is needed for what you desire. There’s folks that run near reference levels that still don’t get a lot of midbass kick or tactile bass in the chest.

I say give the TV36 ipal a listen, but it might not be inherently different than the 2400 if you can’t change either of these variables. The TV36i might present itself with stronger midbass due to design and will certainly have a unique sound signature versus the 2400, but whether or not it translates to what you desire only you can decide.

Thanks for your input guys. I've been emailing Tom back and forth today and decided to pull the trigger and pre-order the ipal version. I will be able to keep the 2400 for a while for comparison in case for some reason the TV36 isn't what it is cracked up to be - but I highly doubt that will be the case.
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post #48352 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Ahh, no it doesn't. That graph ends at 15hz, while the S36 he posted ended at 10 Hz, so it's not comparable visually. Notice the V18 graph you posted, it's already down from 116 dB to ~103 dB from 20 Hz to 15 Hz. It was probably more like 90 dB or even lower by 10 Hz. His S36 was only down from 117 dB to 107 dB going from 20 Hz to 10 Hz - big difference in overall roll off!
I hear where you're coming from, I posted the V18s graph showing the drop off from 20Hz down to 15Hz for that specific reason, if you look at his S36 response from that range he's down 13dB from 15-20Hz not typical for that sub at least not that steep, with my corrected response with the S36s I'm down 5-6dB from 20 to 10Hz...more typical shallower roll off. After reading all he did to correct this I'm thinking he needs another (sub)s to get what he wants. @Mike Butny could probably chime in on this as well.
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post #48353 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
Thanks for your input guys. I've been emailing Tom back and forth today and decided to pull the trigger and pre-order the ipal version. I will be able to keep the 2400 for a while for comparison in case for some reason the TV36 isn't what it is cracked up to be - but I highly doubt that will be the case.
Congrats on your decision, I think you'll be quite happy......turn that MV up a bit while you're at it...enjoy
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post #48354 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Very true in price to performance.

I cant imagine the S36XX wouldn't be an upgrade, especially if larger area?
All I can say every time I talk with Tom about subs which has been quite a bit lately, he always brings the 3000i into the discussion. I mention "even over the S36" he says "performance vs size vs dollar without a doubt".

He even threw me a quote for trading my 3 ported 15's for 3 3010's and I didn't ask for that, I just asked what would be the most cost effective upgrade for 10hz extension in my room.

We initially discussed the TV36 but he doesn't think it would be a good choice to mix with my current subs due to different tunes. So we we're mulling around some different options.
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post #48355 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Found and older pic. Crappy quality but it shows the setup
That looks so damn cool, awesome setup
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post #48356 of 52630 Old 04-27-2019, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Congrats on your decision, I think you'll be quite happy......turn that MV up a bit while you're at it...enjoy

I would if the little woman wasn't always yelling at me to turn it down...
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post #48357 of 52630 Old 04-28-2019, 12:46 AM
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What are the extra two screens for? Is that a sports setup?


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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
This is probably going to be considered blasphemous, don't lose too much sleep over it man it really isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be. This hobby is a sickness and we always want the best out of our systems, so much so we lose sleep over the thought of a 'non-optimal' set-up and research day and night for solutions to get closer to the holy grail of what our system is capable of achieving.

I have had both a height matched front stage (3x RF-7ii) and a non-height matched front stage such as my current system where the center is about 10ft higher than my listening position (and 6ft higher than the mains tweeters). Even without room correction, you know what? I couldn't tell a difference in sound stage between those two systems, they both sound great.

My answer to your question @LennS would be, of course it is an acceptable option Go for it and don't look back.

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post #48358 of 52630 Old 04-28-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
All I can say every time I talk with Tom about subs which has been quite a bit lately, he always brings the 3000i into the discussion. I mention "even over the S36" he says "performance vs size vs dollar without a doubt".

He even threw me a quote for trading my 3 ported 15's for 3 3010's and I didn't ask for that, I just asked what would be the most cost effective upgrade for 10hz extension in my room.

We initially discussed the TV36 but he doesn't think it would be a good choice to mix with my current subs due to different tunes. So we we're mulling around some different options.
The S30xx is no slouch. On several occasions, Tom has reinforced the S30xx with me as well.

Thinking back to when the S3610 were released and what Tom gave me for trade and upgrade numbers. Its now a year plus later on my original square edged S3000i cabs for trade, newer S3611 released and price increases. Fact is that the upgrade figure isnt far off from a 3rd (maybe even or possible cheaper to add another S3000i that might come in to the outlet). For me, 3 S3000i may cost the same as 2 S3611 and may have better results.
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post #48359 of 52630 Old 04-28-2019, 09:39 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

So given that rooms are all different, dsp’s, box types, room treatments, etc, what is the sonic signature of an ipal driver? Im hearing tight and articulate. Anyone with ipal experience care to chime in on what i could possibly expect vs dual s3601s?
I will say that I’m +\- 3 db from 10 hz to 120 hz with these duals in my room currrently. These iPals should wreck vs these dual s3601s below 20 hz id imagine.

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Last edited by David Charles; 04-28-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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post #48360 of 52630 Old 04-28-2019, 10:13 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

So I need some advice, which set up do you think would look better with these two new iPals. Both locations measure really with my dual sealed subs and I’m inclined to think they either location would be ok. Edit: I feel like the imaging of my speakers would be a lot better without a large sub woofer directly to the left and right of my speakers. The center channel would be a little bit lower but I can angle it up and it really isn’t much lower than where I sit during movies. All my electronics would be to the left and right of my center channel but it never looks quite as clean as it does in the cabinet that they are currently in. There’s also room for MTM 210s if I lay them down But that is something that will come in time


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Last edited by David Charles; 04-28-2019 at 10:18 AM.
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