Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1641 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #49201 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Sooooooooo..... Are those things you're testing out to see what they could evolve into?
Meh, it's just bolting things together and see what happens. I don't put much stock into the "that's not going to work" POV. If I did I would have never narrowed my chevelle frame in my garage(when I was 18 mind you) with nothing more than $300, string, and some chalk. Or bolted the 6-71 on a year later for that matter. OMG! You're going to blow that 454 up in 3 minutes. Yeah, 50,000 miles later I'm still rolling my eyes. The first time I heard the song of the 6-71 in madmax...it wasn't not going to happen. Sometimes you just have to zero out all the negative nellies and self proclaimed experts.

For the s3600 cabinets I need to find out what works out of the 5-6 new 18s I have here now(including the neo and ipal). How well do they lend themselves to the cause? I also need to find a bottom-end for the new compression design(on top of the cabinet) from B&C. Single 15? Single 18" Dual push pull? How linear are the motors? so much so there's not going to be any audible benefit to p-p? So it's just playing around with distortion components right now and finding something for <500hz. Then build, measure, and listen. Maybe nothing comes of the whole idea. That's really not the point to be honest though. Not to me anyway. The whole point is just trying out stuff and learning/finding out what really happens.

Whatever works (if anything does) in the s3600 will work the same in the current s3611 and s1811 of course. Of course the key word there is "works" and how I define that.

All of this is really just play time for me. State of the art measurement rigs, some of the best components money can buy, mix in a little experience and imagination, shake, stir...

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post #49202 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 06:21 PM
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Tom,
do you have any idea when any performance data will be out on the new subwoofer line ?


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post #49203 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I’m considering adding a pair of PSA’s smallest subs to my new condo setup, but there are some issues.
I’ve been in contact with Tom, and he helpfully suggested nearfield placement would mitigate at least some of the problems with disturbing neighbors (I’ll be on a suspended floor in the second storey). I think I can solve the outlet problem, but running a sub out wire is an issue (also for the Crowson’s I plan to install). I know there are wireless sub kits (I think SVS sells one). Would lag be an issue with these wireless options? Can anyone make any wireless sub recommendations? Anyone have any thoughts about all of this?


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I use the JL Link wireless kit. No issues works perfect.
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post #49204 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Tom,
do you have any idea when any performance data will be out on the new subwoofer line ?


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As soon as we get the web pages up for each model. Now that we have all of the new production winkles ironed out and we're getting through all the pre orders at a good pace I can focus a little more on that. Maybe this weekend for the first test page.

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post #49205 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Tom,
do you have any idea when any performance data will be out on the new subwoofer line ?


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Next step databass?


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post #49206 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dean122601 View Post
I use the JL Link wireless kit. No issues works perfect.
If it makes the claimed 14 ms latency that's a very interesting looking product.
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post #49207 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Meh, it's just bolting things together and see what happens. I don't put much stock into the "that's not going to work" POV. If I did I would have never narrowed my chevelle frame in my garage(when I was 18 mind you) with nothing more than $300, string, and some chalk. Or bolted the 6-71 on a year later for that matter. OMG! You're going to blow that 454 up in 3 minutes. Yeah, 50,000 miles later I'm still rolling my eyes. The first time I heard the song of the 6-71 in madmax...it wasn't not going to happen. Sometimes you just have to zero out all the negative nellies and self proclaimed experts.

For the s3600 cabinets I need to find out what works out of the 5-6 new 18s I have here now(including the neo and ipal). How well do they lend themselves to the cause? I also need to find a bottom-end for the new compression design(on top of the cabinet) from B&C. Single 15? Single 18" Dual push pull? How linear are the motors? so much so there's not going to be any audible benefit to p-p? So it's just playing around with distortion components right now and finding something for <500hz. Then build, measure, and listen. Maybe nothing comes of the whole idea. That's really not the point to be honest though. Not to me anyway. The whole point is just trying out stuff and learning/finding out what really happens.

Whatever works (if anything does) in the s3600 will work the same in the current s3611 and s1811 of course. Of course the key word there is "works" and how I define that.

All of this is really just play time for me. State of the art measurement rigs, some of the best components money can buy, mix in a little experience and imagination, shake, stir...

Tom V.
Team Power.
Do the new drivers fit in the 360# series cabs?
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post #49208 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Next step databass?


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Next step will be production catching up with demand across all products so I don't have to expect/hope the entire crew is fine working 6-7 day weeks for the rest of their lives.

Then the step after that is worrying about all the new stuff we may/may not introduce in the next 3-6-9 months while I'm also trying to coordinate new logistics lines stretching half way around the world.

Then I might take a day off.

Then, when I see demand slow down even one tiny little bit AND we're all caught up with everything back in stock for same day shipping(like the first 6(?) years of our history AND the guys don't need to work more than 40-45 hours AND I had that day off, AND I have new designs where I want them AND we have the website finally updates and all of the new logistics chains are secure...

Yeah, I'll start worrying about seeking out more reviews/exposure..

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post #49209 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Do the new drivers fit in the 360# series cabs?
All 01 and 11 series.

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post #49210 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 08:05 PM
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How much depth does the grill on the v1811 add? The official spec is 22" with grill on. I have a cubby that I'd like to put one in (actually 2 cubbies with one in each) but they are only 21.5 deep. With the cables coming off of the back, they will effectively take up even more space. I have some things I can do to help mitigate this, like cutting out a hole in the wall for the cabling to stick into, but I still would benefit from knowing how much depth the grill is adding. Anyone here have one and know the answer?

Also, I can't even imagine how much easier this would all be if I didn't have to concern myself with aesthetics. Ugh.
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post #49211 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I’m considering adding a pair of PSA’s smallest subs to my new condo setup, but there are some issues.
I’ve been in contact with Tom, and he helpfully suggested nearfield placement would mitigate at least some of the problems with disturbing neighbors (I’ll be on a suspended floor in the second storey). I think I can solve the outlet problem, but running a sub out wire is an issue (also for the Crowson’s I plan to install). I know there are wireless sub kits (I think SVS sells one). Would lag be an issue with these wireless options? Can anyone make any wireless sub recommendations? Anyone have any thoughts about all of this?


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Get the Outlaw OAW4 wireless devices.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/...8aAkUNEALw_wcB
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post #49212 of 52320 Old 06-12-2019, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Then, when I see demand slow down even one tiny little bit AND we're all caught up with everything back in stock for same day shipping(like the first 6(?) years of our history AND the guys don't need to work more than 40-45 hours AND I had that day off, AND I have new designs where I want them AND we have the website finally updates and all of the new logistics chains are secure...

Yeah, I'll start worrying about seeking out more reviews/exposure..

Tom V.
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all of us here know you're a very busy guy, but i don't think you realize how much weight people around these parts put on subwoofer review sites--specifically the likes of data-bass. it's a hugely convenient tool to compare subwoofers (on paper), and helps the buyer make a (more) informed purchasing decision. while we all know the site can be perceived as a phallic measuring tool, it's immensely helpful nonetheless when it comes to making decisions to part with thousands of dollars for new toys. while i understand that can be seen as yet another tool to drive up sales that aren't needed for you guys (right now), i think it's still worth pursuing nonetheless. let the numbers speak for themselves! so what if more people want your product and you're backlogged because of it? people will wait for a product worth waiting for. it's equivalent to a major automotive manufacturer not giving press cars to auto reviewers/bloggers because they're too busy or behind on fulfilling sales. the press cars (subs) are still made available.

i love my psa towers, they were worth every penny! you make incredible products. but for the record, i never considered your sub offerings specifically because they weren't reviewed & listed on data-bass, back when i purchased multiple rythmik fv25's. you really should prioritize sending josh one of your new tv36 creations (and the rest of your sub offerings honestly), so we can all see how they stack up against the competition. i'm glad you have people waiting in line to hand over large sums of cash sans reviews, but that will only last so long. i hope your current products eventually show up on the aforementioned site.


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post #49213 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
all of us here know you're a very busy guy, but i don't think you realize how much weight people around these parts put on subwoofer review sites--specifically the likes of data-bass. it's a hugely convenient tool to compare subwoofers (on paper), and helps the buyer make a (more) informed purchasing decision. while we all know the site can be perceived as a phallic measuring tool, it's immensely helpful nonetheless when it comes to making decisions to part with thousands of dollars for new toys. while i understand that can be seen as yet another tool to drive up sales that aren't needed for you guys (right now), i think it's still worth pursuing nonetheless. let the numbers speak for themselves! so what if more people want your product and you're backlogged because of it? people will wait for a product worth waiting for. it's equivalent to a major automotive manufacturer not giving press cars to auto reviewers/bloggers because they're too busy or behind on fulfilling sales. the press cars (subs) are still made available.

i love my psa towers, they were worth every penny! you make incredible products. but for the record, i never considered your sub offerings specifically because they weren't reviewed & listed on data-bass, back when i purchased multiple rythmik fv25's. you really should prioritize sending josh one of your new tv36 creations (and the rest of your sub offerings honestly), so we can all see how they stack up against the competition. i'm glad you have people waiting in line to hand over large sums of cash sans reviews, but that will only last so long. i hope your current products eventually show up on the aforementioned site.
While I understand your viewpoint and know it's true that we at AVS put huge weight on data-bass, Tom repeatedly answers this question at least once a month. I've wanted to see it myself. It simply is not a priority for him and he is not going to send a sub out for review at the expense of a customer having to wait longer for the sub because he sent one to data-bass instead. He has been steadily increasing production and he has yet to be able to meet his standard of in stock same day shipping since at least before Christmas on a lot of his product. I don't think he is worried about finding additional customers at this point. His business has grown a lot despite not having sent a sub for review for a number of years.
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post #49214 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
all of us here know you're a very busy guy, but i don't think you realize how much weight people around these parts put on subwoofer review sites--specifically the likes of data-bass. it's a hugely convenient tool to compare subwoofers (on paper), and helps the buyer make a (more) informed purchasing decision. while we all know the site can be perceived as a phallic measuring tool, it's immensely helpful nonetheless when it comes to making decisions to part with thousands of dollars for new toys. while i understand that can be seen as yet another tool to drive up sales that aren't needed for you guys (right now), i think it's still worth pursuing nonetheless. let the numbers speak for themselves! so what if more people want your product and you're backlogged because of it? people will wait for a product worth waiting for. it's equivalent to a major automotive manufacturer not giving press cars to auto reviewers/bloggers because they're too busy or behind on fulfilling sales. the press cars (subs) are still made available.



i love my psa towers, they were worth every penny! you make incredible products. but for the record, i never considered your sub offerings specifically because they weren't reviewed & listed on data-bass, back when i purchased multiple rythmik fv25's. you really should prioritize sending josh one of your new tv36 creations (and the rest of your sub offerings honestly), so we can all see how they stack up against the competition. i'm glad you have people waiting in line to hand over large sums of cash sans reviews, but that will only last so long. i hope your current products eventually show up on the aforementioned site.


Doesn’t matter how good a sub tests at databass the most important thing is how any sub interacts in your specific room.

You seem to care a lot about tests and numbers for a guy that won’t buy a $100 microphone and download free software to see if $7k plus investment is playing nicely in his room or not
I remember reading that after you sold two of your subs and had one running the difference wasn’t substantial (maybe the subs weren’t all in good locations)



I get some people care a ton about this but his business is doing quite well. I for one would just like to see how they perform relative to each other and his other current offerings. Yes, Data Bass would be a nice addition but I’m not going to go elsewhere because Tom doesn’t care about that.


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post #49215 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by badboi View Post
I have a Rocketfish that I bought about 5 years ago when we moved to the new house. Wood floors made it impossible to run wire (well, I could, but didn't want to have exposed wires on the floor). It works fine. Added a second sub and bought another Rocketfish just last year. This one was awful. It would constantly thump about every 3 or 4 minutes. Took it out of the setup and bought the SVS model from Crutchfield (I had points). Works great and no problem at all. I'd go with the SVS. And no lag on either one. I still have the Rocketfish if you are interested in it. Was well past the return date so there wasn't much I could do with it.


Thanks for weighing in. I’ll consider the Rocketfish (among the other options mentioned below).


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post #49216 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I had a pair of the SVS to run 2 subs in my bedroom. I could never get them to work. The distance Audyssey set between the 2 subs was too large, I had to use cables instead.


Thanks for your thoughts. Sounds like too much latency, at least for Audyssey. Shouldn’t be an issue with MiniDSP HD.


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post #49217 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dean122601 View Post
I use the JL Link wireless kit. No issues works perfect.


Thanks for the suggestion. I know JL makes quality gear, I’ll need to check this out.


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post #49218 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Get the Outlaw OAW4 wireless devices.



http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/...8aAkUNEALw_wcB


Thanks. I’ll need to check this out.


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post #49219 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 05:12 AM
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Thanks for weighing in. I’ll consider the Rocketfish (among the other options mentioned below).


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Seriously, I would skip the newer Rocketfish offerings. Seems that everyone has the same issues with it as I did. The older one is still working fine though.
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post #49220 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Doesn’t matter how good a sub tests at databass the most important thing is how any sub interacts in your specific room.

You seem to care a lot about tests and numbers for a guy that won’t buy a $100 microphone and download free software to see if $7k plus investment is playing nicely in his room or not
I remember reading that after you sold two of your subs and had one running the difference wasn’t substantial (maybe the subs weren’t all in good locations)



I get some people care a ton about this but his business is doing quite well. I for one would just like to see how they perform relative to each other and his other current offerings. Yes, Data Bass would be a nice addition but I’m not going to go elsewhere because Tom doesn’t care about that.


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I agree Tom sending it in to data bass would be cool, but not because I don't trust what Tom is putting out there. I think the poster had 3 FV25s in the back of his room and it was still "not enough", so was confused when he shot down the idea of using REW to test his room. That's some insane firepower that still wasn't cutting it. Either it's a room issue or Rythmik just isn't for him. But if you're gonna spend over 5K on some subs, I think one can afford $100 to get the mic.
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I've been refraining from posting further measurements from my TV36 ipals because the room contributes so much, and until I get placement dialed in, they're going to look bad 'on paper.' The funny thing is, while running slow manual sweeps trying to see if my moves were helping with the giant hole in the response at 90 Hz, I couldn't even hear said hole. 90 Hz was measuring 20 dB lower than 80 Hz, but it sounded the same to me.

I have one more position to try tonight, and if if it still measures weirdly, I'm just going to live with it. The sound from these things is astonishingly good, regardless of how they measure. My Paradigms are similar; they were voiced for how the designers wanted them to sound, not to measure perfectly flat. I'm ok with that
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post #49222 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Thanks. I’ll need to check this out.


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No problem...fwiw those units have the least amount of latency. If I remember correctly it's less then 10ms so most room correction can adjust for them. The biggest problem with the Rocket Fish is they have 30ms latency so Audyssey will not have enough range to account for them. I had a Yamaha at the time and they go clear out to 80ft so it wasn't a issue.
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post #49223 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Doesn’t matter how good a sub tests at databass the most important thing is how any sub interacts in your specific room.

You seem to care a lot about tests and numbers for a guy that won’t buy a $100 microphone and download free software to see if $7k plus investment is playing nicely in his room or not
I remember reading that after you sold two of your subs and had one running the difference wasn’t substantial (maybe the subs weren’t all in good locations)



I get some people care a ton about this but his business is doing quite well. I for one would just like to see how they perform relative to each other and his other current offerings. Yes, Data Bass would be a nice addition but I’m not going to go elsewhere because Tom doesn’t care about that.


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Agreed!!^^

Having gone through several sub brands over just the last three years (Velodyne, SVS, JTR, Funk) i can say in my experience Data-Bass numbers although relevant to measure pure output numbers, doesn't sum up how a sub will sound to us or how it will react in our rooms. It also wont show how much tactile "feel" will be present in out rooms, or the sound signature, quality of parts been used/workmanship, noise floor/reliability issues, customer service and so on.

For an owner already living, breathing, eating PSA seven days a week and is selling all he can handle,, who likely has the most satisfied customer fan base, imo Data-bass would not be in the top ten of priorities. Just my 2cents.

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post #49224 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 07:52 AM
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I've been refraining from posting further measurements from my TV36 ipals because the room contributes so much, and until I get placement dialed in, they're going to look bad 'on paper.' The funny thing is, while running slow manual sweeps trying to see if my moves were helping with the giant hole in the response at 90 Hz, I couldn't even hear said hole. 90 Hz was measuring 20 dB lower than 80 Hz, but it sounded the same to me.

I have one more position to try tonight, and if if it still measures weirdly, I'm just going to live with it. The sound from these things is astonishingly good, regardless of how they measure. My Paradigms are similar; they were voiced for how the designers wanted them to sound, not to measure perfectly flat. I'm ok with that
Are you running sweeps on just the subs or subs and a speaker? If you are just running sweeps your subs make sure you have the crossover point in your AVR at it's highest point.

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.
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post #49225 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 07:57 AM
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Are you running sweeps on just the subs or subs and a speaker? If you are just running sweeps your subs make sure you have the crossover point in your AVR at it's highest point.
I've done them on both ASIO channel 2 and directly to the subs on channel 4, with various crossover points in the AVR, Audyssey enabled and disabled.
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post #49226 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 08:28 AM
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If you want databass figures than go look at the x21 under ww speakers. Its loaded with a 21ds115. Or look at the dual opposed with ipals. Difference would be cone area mostly but performance is shown, distortion and output.

Generally we don't know the driver specs so your guessing. Here we do, so the performance isn't as speculative.
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post #49227 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 08:29 AM
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I've done them on both ASIO channel 2 and directly to the subs on channel 4, with various crossover points in the AVR, Audyssey enabled and disabled.
If you include the center channel does that 90hz dip improve?

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.
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post #49228 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 08:47 AM
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If you include the center channel does that 90hz dip improve?
I can give it a shot, but it's happening with just a single sub and no speakers active. What ya thinking?
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post #49229 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 08:53 AM
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I can give it a shot, but it's happening with just a single sub and no speakers active. What ya thinking?
once you add the center channel in the sweep and utilize the crossover at around 80, the dip might flatten out with the help of your center channel

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post #49230 of 52320 Old 06-13-2019, 08:56 AM
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once you add the center channel in the sweep and utilize the crossover at around 80, the dip might flatten out with the help of your center channel
Oh for sure, though I was really hoping to get flat-ish to at least 120 (or more) Hz on the subs, so I can cross over at 100 instead of 60 or 80.
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