Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1642 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #49231 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
First TV36_base out the door today.

* USA made cabinet finished on site here in our own spray booth.
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* 5 year warranty along with all of the customer support perks that separates Power Sound from all the other guys.

$2199 (including shipping to continental usa)

Good luck finding a better value.

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Please stop teasing me!
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post #49232 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Oh for sure, though I was really hoping to get flat-ish to at least 120 (or more) Hz on the subs, so I can cross over at 100 instead of 60 or 80.
Add the center and experiment with the crossovers. You my still get improvement at 90 or 100.
Wont know until you try it.

If moving the sub is an option, then go for that as well.

the rew rabbit hole of possibilities until you nail it and then all is good
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post #49233 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I can give it a shot, but it's happening with just a single sub and no speakers active. What ya thinking?
I'm just curious if you add the center channel if it helps. Can you post your most recent sweep?

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post #49234 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 09:25 AM
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I'm just curious if you add the center channel if it helps. Can you post your most recent sweep?
I'll throw one up when I get home from work
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post #49235 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I'll throw one up when I get home from work


If your dip does not go away from moving the subs around, you may want to move the mic up and down to see if it is height related. You may not be able to do anything about but at least you will know. I had a dip that I could not get to go away till I figured out it was height related.


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post #49236 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I've been refraining from posting further measurements from my TV36 ipals because the room contributes so much, and until I get placement dialed in, they're going to look bad 'on paper.' The funny thing is, while running slow manual sweeps trying to see if my moves were helping with the giant hole in the response at 90 Hz, I couldn't even hear said hole. 90 Hz was measuring 20 dB lower than 80 Hz, but it sounded the same to me.

I have one more position to try tonight, and if if it still measures weirdly, I'm just going to live with it. The sound from these things is astonishingly good, regardless of how they measure. My Paradigms are similar; they were voiced for how the designers wanted them to sound, not to measure perfectly flat. I'm ok with that
How wide is that hole at 90Hz? if it only stretches from say 87 to 93 Hz then you won't ever notice it anyway. There will never be a moment where a movie will play that narrow region of bass by itself. Don't forget, bass... any bass... in any movie or music is made up of many different low frequencies all playing at the same time so all the other powerful bass notes would mask that narrow dip (unless you like the sine waves in the beginning of Edge of Tomorrow... those are a single frequency).

On the other hand, if it is a wide dip, say 75 to 93 Hz then yeah that would be something to try your best to fix.
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post #49237 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 10:25 AM
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While we are on the topic of REW... I thought my computer issues with REW were fixed... NOPE! I spent two hours last night trying to get REW set up. And after many frustrating moments I got it all set and ready to measure. But when I hit the "measure" button REW suddenly disappeared from the screen. It crashed and burned.

But to be honest I'm kind of happy. I have enough past measurements from those locations to know what I have going on and it sounds so good I was thinking about leaving well enough alone. The whole time I was setting REW up I was thinking to myself: "Why am I doing this? I love how everything sounds and if I see one tiny thing a little "off" it's going to make me spend hours majoring on a minor and stop me from enjoying my setup." Luckily a computer crash protected me from myself.

But someday I'll have to buy a new computer and take some measurements plus I need one for BEQ but that will have to wait until my wallet recovers... it's still on fire. Until then... I'm one happy camper.
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post #49238 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Doesn’t matter how good a sub tests at databass the most important thing is how any sub interacts in your specific room.

I get some people care a ton about this but his business is doing quite well. I for one would just like to see how they perform relative to each other and his other current offerings. Yes, Data Bass would be a nice addition but I’m not going to go elsewhere because Tom doesn’t care about that.
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
Agreed!!^^

Having gone through several sub brands over just the last three years (Velodyne, SVS, JTR, Funk) i can say in my experience Data-Bass numbers although relevant to measure pure output numbers, doesn't sum up how a sub will sound to us or how it will react in our rooms. It also wont show how much tactile "feel" will be present in out rooms, or the sound signature, quality of parts been used/workmanship, noise floor/reliability issues, customer service and so on.

For an owner already living, breathing, eating PSA seven days a week and is selling all he can handle,, who likely has the most satisfied customer fan base, imo Data-bass would not be in the top ten of priorities. Just my 2cents.
You guys are so right. I can see why some people would like to see a sub measured at data-bass, in fact I would like it too. But for me it's more just a curiosity thing. I never come close to running my subs anywhere near their maximum output so that measurement is nothing but a curiosity. And yes, data-bass does show other things but the thing most people fixate on the the max output. Buying a sub based solely on max output seems silly to me.

IMO there are many other things more important. The number one thing being the sound quality of the sub. Subs vary in sound as much as speakers do and data-bass can't tell you how good the sub will actually sound to you... especially in your room. @imureh has had a lot of experience with this very thing, he has tried many many top subs in his room... in fact a sub that reigns supreme on data-bass didn't sound good in his room at all. And I can tell you that same sub that doesn't sound good in Imureh's room did sound good in my room but as good as it was it's nothing compared to how good the TV36 sounds in my room. You won't get any of that off Data-Bass unless maybe you're a bass savant.

Personally I don't buy PSA subs based solely on max output numbers, I'm interested in them but that's not why I buy from PSA. The primary thing I focus on is the way they sound... I love the way they sound. After that comes things like power, build quality, customer service etc. The only thing on that list that Data-Bass will tell me is output. All the other things I learned through the forums and personal experience.

And I know Tom is far more concerned about taking care of the customers who have actually spent their money with him than he is winning over the few people on the forums who insist on Data-Bass measurements. He wants to get back to someday order/shipping so the people trusting him with their hard earned money get their product immediately. This back log of orders is something he can't stand. And there is no way he will delay a sub going to a paying customer to send it to Data-bass.

Having said all that, we know he intends to send the TV36 to Data-Bass someday (he said so in a post). But it's not a priority nor should it be IMO.

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post #49239 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
You seem to care a lot about tests and numbers for a guy that won’t buy a $100 microphone and download free software to see if $7k plus investment is playing nicely in his room or not
I remember reading that after you sold two of your subs and had one running the difference wasn’t substantial (maybe the subs weren’t all in good locations)
no to derail the topic at hand but since you found the compulsory need to slander me, i did spend hours running REW when i had the rythmik's. it was a lot of wasted energy moving the 200lb subs around the room only to find that my extremely limited placement options didn't matter in the end and that the rear of the room graphed, sounded & felt best. i may not own psa subs, but i've given tom enough money to feel like i can have an opinion on the matter being discussed (having his subs reviewed by a respected 3rd party). tom is a great guy, has been very helpful every time i've chatted with him, but that doesn't mean i respect his decision to withhold his products from josh for testing. no amount of fanboying here will change my mind about that.
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post #49240 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
no to derail the topic at hand but since you found the compulsory need to slander me, i did spend hours running REW when i had the rythmik's. it was a lot of wasted energy moving the 200lb subs around the room only to find that my extremely limited placement options didn't matter in the end and that the rear of the room graphed, sounded & felt best. i may not own psa subs, but i've given tom enough money to feel like i can have an opinion on the matter being discussed (having his subs reviewed by a respected 3rd party). tom is a great guy, has been very helpful every time i've chatted with him, but that doesn't mean i respect his decision to withhold his products from josh for testing. no amount of fanboying here will change my mind about that.
I can see where you're coming from. You've spent a lot of time energy and money on subwoofers and still haven't found what you're looking for. I think if I were in your situation I would want as much information as I could get too. Simply put, you've struggled so much with being disappointed with your past sub choices you don't want it to happen again. I totally get it. I don't share your opinion on the necessity of Data-Bass but I respect where you are coming from.
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post #49241 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
tom is a great guy, has been very helpful every time i've chatted with him, but that doesn't mean i respect his decision to withhold his products from josh for testing. no amount of fanboying here will change my mind about that.
You're saying you don't respect his decision to not submit products for Josh to test? Really?

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post #49242 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 11:14 AM
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no to derail the topic at hand but since you found the compulsory need to slander me, i did spend hours running REW when i had the rythmik's. it was a lot of wasted energy moving the 200lb subs around the room only to find that my extremely limited placement options didn't matter in the end and that the rear of the room graphed, sounded & felt best. i may not own psa subs, but i've given tom enough money to feel like i can have an opinion on the matter being discussed (having his subs reviewed by a respected 3rd party). tom is a great guy, has been very helpful every time i've chatted with him, but that doesn't mean i respect his decision to withhold his products from josh for testing. no amount of fanboying here will change my mind about that.


I was not my intention to slander you serith hence the wink face. It struck me as old. I love your set up and follow your YouTube. I am a fan of yours


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post #49243 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 11:17 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by serith View Post
no to derail the topic at hand but since you found the compulsory need to slander me, i did spend hours running REW when i had the rythmik's. it was a lot of wasted energy moving the 200lb subs around the room only to find that my extremely limited placement options didn't matter in the end and that the rear of the room graphed, sounded & felt best. i may not own psa subs, but i've given tom enough money to feel like i can have an opinion on the matter being discussed (having his subs reviewed by a respected 3rd party). tom is a great guy, has been very helpful every time i've chatted with him, but that doesn't mean i respect his decision to withhold his products from josh for testing. no amount of fanboying here will change my mind about that.


All of us should feel open to share what we feel and share our experience whether you are a customer of that brand or not. I also agree with what you have said and I don’t think it was out of line in any way. Many of us would like his products to be tested by DB. I mean they were in the past am am hopeful they will in the future. I see why Tom is saying as to why it’s not a priority but believe the importance is being undersold a bit. Again my opinion but at the end of the day it is Tom who decides how we wants to run his business. But it is good for him to hear from us. After all the LT subs did come out of that feedback.....at least that is what I believe.


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post #49244 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 11:20 AM
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Anyone know how much depth the grill on the V1811 adds?
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post #49245 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I can see where you're coming from. You've spent a lot of time energy and money on subwoofers and still haven't found what you're looking for. I think if I were in your situation I would want as much information as I could get too. Simply put, you've struggled so much with being disappointed with your past sub choices you don't want it to happen again. I totally get it. I don't share your opinion on the necessity of Data-Bass but I respect where you are coming from.


I don’t think he was disappointed with his sub choice or that is reason he is asking for the measurements by DB. If that was the case the FV25HP should have satisfied all his output related desires as it is one of highest output measured subs. He is after TR and for that he needs crowsons or BOSS on a concrete floor.


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post #49246 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
5 weeks of laying awake at night trying to figure out the root cause of an issue...
Sounds like a bad case of engineer's insomnia - often triggered by engineer's curse: unsolved problems.

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post #49247 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 12:23 PM
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I was not my intention to slander you serith hence the wink face. It struck me as old. I love your set up and follow your YouTube. I am a fan of yours
i apologize then, just having one of those days at work--also, sorry for no video updates in a while. i'm a huge fan of psa--i even rep one of their shirts from time to time that tom threw in with my tower order to support the brand. i'd just love to see their current offerings listed alongside other power-houses on data-bass and it's frustrating when people blindly defend reasons not to do it. if i recall, there was even someone willing to have tom ship a tv36 directly to josh for testing and then have it shipped to the buyer afterwards. if that doesn't tell the story i don't know what does.


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post #49248 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 12:39 PM
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Anyone know how much depth the grill on the V1811 adds?
I sold mine about a month ago, but from what I can remember, it wasn't very thick. The grills are made of heavy duty material, it looked like maybe 5/8" LDF framing plus the cloth and small gap in the back. Roughly 3/4" total, 1" at most..
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post #49249 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 01:07 PM
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Sounds like a bad case of engineer's insomnia - often triggered by engineer's curse: unsolved problems.

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And so much for sleeping like a puppy in a pickup that night. I spent it rehashing every test session for the past 5 weeks one at a time and trying to understand my thought process with each one and why I didn't connect the dots sooner. But that's the type of thing that just relaxes me anyway. Easy to drift off...eventually...

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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I sold mine about a month ago, but from what I can remember, it wasn't very thick. The grills are made of heavy duty material, it looked like maybe 5/8" LDF framing plus the cloth and small gap in the back. Roughly 3/4" total, 1" at most..
THANK YOU SIR!!! 3/4 of an inch may just be enough. I think I will be making an order tomorrow. Just stresses me that these subs and bookshelves are going to be so tight in my shelving... but I feel like I need to give it a shot, because my room is so damn big and using little speakers would not likely play well.
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post #49251 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 01:14 PM
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... that doesn't mean i respect his decision to withhold his products from josh for testing. no amount of fanboying here will change my mind about that.
Don't "respect", people who have a difference of priorities are now labeled with a derogatory "fanboying" and me choosing when the appropriate time is to send any of my products to anyone for a review is now "tom is WITHHOLDING(hiding)!!!"

Seriously. Can we not go a single week with the same drama created for the same tired reason(s) over and over and over and over.

Someone doesn't like our priorities, buy elsewhere. How difficult is that?

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post #49252 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 01:16 PM
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THANK YOU SIR!!! 3/4 of an inch may just be enough. I think I will be making an order tomorrow. Just stresses me that these subs and bookshelves are going to be so tight in my shelving... but I feel like I need to give it a shot, because my room is so damn big and using little speakers would not likely play well.
If you need extra depth, you can use right angle adapters for all the connections - I do on mine, and they work great.
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post #49253 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 01:18 PM
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I Measure more than 3/4 and less than 7/8 inches on both the V1800 and the V1801. I believe the V1811 uses the same cabinet except for Internals and the amp cutout.


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Originally Posted by Mister Julian View Post
Anyone know how much depth the grill on the V1811 adds?
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HT: PSA MTM-210T front, MTM-210C center, PSA MTM-210T surrounds, PSA MT-110 rears, Atmos / Canton, Ascend CBM-170SE, PSA V1800 , PSA V1801, Marantz SR7009 AVR & Emotiva A-100 stereo amp, Panasonic 65ST60 Plasma, Oppo BDP 93, Sony S1700, Music video: JBL L890, L880, LC2, SVS pc13-Ultra, Yamaha RX-V385, ASUS 31.5" IPS monitor, Sony S1700, Multichannel stereo: PSA MT-110, Bose 901, PSA S1510DF, Denon X1400H, Marantz SR6005
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post #49254 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 01:21 PM
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While I understand your viewpoint and know it's true that we at AVS put huge weight on data-bass, Tom repeatedly answers this question at least once a month. I've wanted to see it myself. It simply is not a priority for him and he is not going to send a sub out for review at the expense of a customer having to wait longer for the sub because he sent one to data-bass instead. He has been steadily increasing production and he has yet to be able to meet his standard of in stock same day shipping since at least before Christmas on a lot of his product. I don't think he is worried about finding additional customers at this point. His business has grown a lot despite not having sent a sub for review for a number of years.
Part of it was just an experiment too. I had people insisting "no fancy webpage with fancy pictures? no sales lol!" No third party measurements(that 99% either don't understand at all or only slightly less worse, have little idea how any of it actually correlates to sound in their system)? you won't get any sales lol!"

Yet, here we are. No web page, no professional reviews, and the most successful product launch in company history...by far.

It's almost like if you prioritize the actual product performance/sound quality that's what many people really care about. Sure, they'll check out a webpage when we get to it. Or third party measurements. But's it's not like they are obsessing about it.

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post #49255 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 01:37 PM
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all of us here know you're a very busy guy, but i don't think you realize how much weight people around these parts put on subwoofer review sites--specifically the likes of data-bass. it's a hugely convenient tool to compare subwoofers (on paper), and helps the buyer make a (more) informed purchasing decision.

so what if more people want your product and you're backlogged because of it? people will wait for a product worth waiting for. it's equivalent to a major automotive manufacturer not giving press cars to auto reviewers/bloggers because they're too busy or behind on fulfilling sales. the press cars (subs) are still made available.
* I don't think you realize what a tiny minority "weight" things as you describe. My evidence? Sales.

* 99% of people have no idea how to properly correlate databass with what they are going to actually hear. Worse yet, 79% of them get all fluffy-huffy when anyone tries to explain any of it to them. All most care about an overly simplistic cea-2010 extreme narrow band tone. I still remember the old reaction audio subs. they had high cea scores but my god everything else was awful. And the majority of AVS? Oh god it was swoon city It was literally a giant car woofer in a big box that was rattling itself apart, with a pe amp, and *zero* engineering time. But THAT was the new cream of the crop according to many who "weight" databass over everything else. No thanks.

* Order backlogs cost money and efficiency. The ideal is production capabilities matching closely with order demand. The further you go either way from that the more money you lose.

* and your comment about "people will wait for a product worth waiting for..." Really just magnifies the disconnect in your thought process. To YOU, a product is ONLY worth waiting for is someone else measures it in a parking lot somewhere. Okay, no one is going to spam your fav brand's thread arguing about that. Different strokes. To OTHERS, they couldn't care less about that. Just reading a paragraph from someone like Hop is significantly more valuable to them than a graph from a parking lot. So sometimes it's just best to live and let live and understand your priorities aren't every's priorities.


Don't like Power Sound priorities/design philosophies? Shop elsewhere. It's really that easy..

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post #49256 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by zeuspaul View Post
I Measure more than 3/4 and less than 7/8 inches on both the V1800 and the V1801. I believe the V1811 uses the same cabinet except for Internals and the amp cutout.
the cabinet is 21 deep. IIRC the grill is 7/8th but figure an inch as there's going to be a little spacing between the grill and the cabinet.

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post #49257 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 01:43 PM
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opps i have a different sub so nvm

Lg G6
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Emotiva, XMC-1 V3, Xpa-2, Xpa-5
PSA V1801
Airmotiv T2(front), C2(Center), T1(surrounds), E1(surround backs)

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post #49258 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
If you need extra depth, you can use right angle adapters for all the connections - I do on mine, and they work great.
Very good- was already planning to get right angle RCA for the LFE connection, but I suppose I can also figure a way to rig up a right angle power cord.
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post #49259 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
the cabinet is 21 deep. IIRC the grill is 7/8th but figure an inch as there's going to be a little spacing between the grill and the cabinet.

Tom V.
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Thanks Tom- BTW I'm the guy who called in yesterday and asked a zillion questions. So if these are 21 without the grill, I think I can make this work. I'll be ordering soon I think.
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post #49260 of 50419 Old 06-13-2019, 02:16 PM
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One other thing that I should be considering would be ventillation. I believe the amp is located on the back of the V1811. If it is more or less against a wall, with about an inch gap on each side of the sub and maybe 2 inches above the top, is that enough to give the heat a place to escape? I COULD use a hole saw to punch some vent holes above the back so the heat can get out, maybe even sneak a quiet computer case-style fan into the mix to feed some fresh air back there. I can be creative. How sensitive are these as far as heat goes?
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