Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1643 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #49261 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 02:40 PM
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Alright, I just took some more measurements. CSL calibrated UMIK, sturdy mic stand with 90 degree cal and mic at ear position in MLP. Audyssey off, no EQ other than delay set in the minidsp to time align the first wave:


Measurements were run through output 4 (sub channel) in ASIO, I also tried with the center channel crossed at both 80 Hz and 200 Hz, and there was no improvement as expected - I know the back sub is still in a null. I moved it once, it got better, then I turned it around hoping for further improvement, and instead it got worse. I'm going to move it off the plane it's on, back against a wall. I know positioning is the only way I'll get that ~48Hz null to go away. I'm not worried about that yet, the V1811 I had back there before had the same exact dip in response.



I just don't get why is the performance above 80 Hz so weird. Any help with this is greatly appreciated.

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post #49262 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Alright, I just took some more measurements. CSL calibrated UMIK, sturdy mic stand with 90 degree cal and mic at ear position in MLP. Audyssey off, no EQ than delay set in the minidsp to time align the first wave:





Measurements were run through output 4 (sub channel) in ASIO, I also tried with the center channel crossed at both 80 Hz and 200 Hz, and there was no I know the back sub is still in a null. I moved it once, it got better, then I turned it around hoping for further improvement, and instead it got worse. I'm going to move it off the plane it's on, back against a wall. I know positioning is the only way I'll get that ~48Hz null to go away. I'm not worried about that yet, the V1811 I had back there before had the same exact dip in response.







I just don't get why is the performance above 80 Hz so weird. Any help with this is greatly appreciated.


Move the mic higher or lower. Also may be easier to move the mic around and see where and if you get a better response.


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post #49263 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Move the mic higher or lower. Also may be easier to move the mic around and see where and if you get a better response.
This is with the mic stand as high as it goes:

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post #49264 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
This is with the mic stand as high as it goes:





Try lower. That is certainly room induced. Treatments may help as well but I would take measurements from different places in the room just to see where it reads best. Then figure out whether that location is even doable for subs or seating.


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post #49265 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 03:04 PM
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@ratbuddy do you mind doing a close mic sweep with the length at 512k. Can see the response of the sub without the room that way.
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post #49266 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
@ratbuddy do you mind doing a close mic sweep with the length at 512k. Can see the response of the sub without the room that way.
I actually did that before seeing your post - close mic'd the upper woofer (256k and 512k gave extremely similar results) and got this:



edit: Close mic on lower woofer is very similar result. Not going to try to measure the port, it's not really reachable for me.

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post #49267 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I actually did that before seeing your post - close mic'd the upper woofer (256k and 512k gave extremely similar results) and got this:

Spoiler!
Good news is the sub fantastic out to 200hz, bad news is you have work to do.
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post #49268 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Good news is the sub fantastic out to 200hz, bad news is you have work to do.
Figured as much, I'm just very limited on placement options :/ I can hopefully get the 48 Hz null looking better on the rear sub, but the front one, I pulled it another foot out of the corner (the maximum WAF would likely allow) and it still has a big dip around 90. I think I'll just have to live with that. As far as I can tell, it's not really audible, but being right in the crossover region, I am scared of it :P
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post #49269 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 03:19 PM
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I agree with moving the mic around, a foot one way or the other could make the world of difference. Sorry if I missed it but have you tweaked the distance with just the cc and the tv36's using RTA or sweeps

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post #49270 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 03:40 PM
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I moved the rear sub back to the back wall instead of behind the couch, re-time aligned the subs, and ran a sweep. Still a huge, gaping, ugly hole at 48 Hz on the rear sub. I'm over it, I don't have any other placement options. I ran a sweep with both subs, and to my delight, the rear sub now has a big peak in the 90 Hz region. The combined response even needed taking down a bit, I did an input filter on 73 Hz, -6 dB, Q 6.3, and got this (dual TV36 ipal, for those who might be wondering):



I feel fine handing this to Audyssey, I'm not going to obsess over it.
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post #49271 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I've been refraining from posting further measurements from my TV36 ipals because the room contributes so much, and until I get placement dialed in, they're going to look bad 'on paper.' The funny thing is, while running slow manual sweeps trying to see if my moves were helping with the giant hole in the response at 90 Hz, I couldn't even hear said hole. 90 Hz was measuring 20 dB lower than 80 Hz, but it sounded the same to me.

I have one more position to try tonight, and if if it still measures weirdly, I'm just going to live with it. The sound from these things is astonishingly good, regardless of how they measure. My Paradigms are similar; they were voiced for how the designers wanted them to sound, not to measure perfectly flat. I'm ok with that
I may be off base, but I got the impression that you are trying to measure the response of each individual sub and make sure none of them have any dips in the response when measured separately. This is almost completely meaningless. The only thing that matters is the combined response. One sub in my room has a terrible, wide dip in the response centered at 40 Hz. Meaningless. Because the second sub completely fills in the gap for a nice smooth response. It also doesn't matter in the slightest that my other sub, played by itself, has a poor frequency response. They are positioned to supplement and play nicely with each other with a combined response that has no dips or nulls, only peaks that are easily brought down with some PEQ. I'm +/- 1 dB 10-200Hz across a wide sectional with six seating locations when you average the response at all seats. No individual position is perfect, but every seat is very good.
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post #49272 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I moved the rear sub back to the back wall instead of behind the couch, re-time aligned the subs, and ran a sweep. Still a huge, gaping, ugly hole at 48 Hz on the rear sub. I'm over it, I don't have any other placement options. I ran a sweep with both subs, and to my delight, the rear sub now has a big peak in the 90 Hz region. The combined response even needed taking down a bit, I did an input filter on 73 Hz, -6 dB, Q 6.3, and got this (dual TV36 ipal, for those who might be wondering):





I feel fine handing this to Audyssey, I'm not going to obsess over it.
If your done i get it, have you let REW set filters and see what it comes up with. You could cut the peaks and then put a house curve in after. Save what you have in case Audy goes off the deep end.

That said enjoy what you have for a while, not like they are going anywhere. BTW congrats on the new hardware
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post #49273 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I moved the rear sub back to the back wall instead of behind the couch, re-time aligned the subs, and ran a sweep. Still a huge, gaping, ugly hole at 48 Hz on the rear sub. I'm over it, I don't have any other placement options. I ran a sweep with both subs, and to my delight, the rear sub now has a big peak in the 90 Hz region. The combined response even needed taking down a bit, I did an input filter on 73 Hz, -6 dB, Q 6.3, and got this (dual TV36 ipal, for those who might be wondering):







I feel fine handing this to Audyssey, I'm not going to obsess over it.


Dude, you have a minidsp? Get on it and fix it and then run Audyssey


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post #49274 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I moved the rear sub back to the back wall instead of behind the couch, re-time aligned the subs, and ran a sweep. Still a huge, gaping, ugly hole at 48 Hz on the rear sub. I'm over it, I don't have any other placement options. I ran a sweep with both subs, and to my delight, the rear sub now has a big peak in the 90 Hz region. The combined response even needed taking down a bit, I did an input filter on 73 Hz, -6 dB, Q 6.3, and got this (dual TV36 ipal, for those who might be wondering):



I feel fine handing this to Audyssey, I'm not going to obsess over it.
Surprised your response drops like a rock in the low teens like that....I figured they would be pretty flat to at least 10Hz.
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post #49275 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 04:26 PM
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I may be off base, but I got the impression that you are trying to measure the response of each individual sub and make sure none of them have any dips in the response when measured separately. This is almost completely meaningless. The only thing that matters is the combined response. One sub in my room has a terrible, wide dip in the response centered at 40 Hz. Meaningless. Because the second sub completely fills in the gap for a nice smooth response. It also doesn't matter in the slightest that my other sub, played by itself, has a poor frequency response. They are positioned to supplement and play nicely with each other with a combined response that has no dips or nulls, only peaks that are easily brought down with some PEQ. I'm +/- 1 dB 10-200Hz across a wide sectional with six seating locations when you average the response at all seats. No individual position is perfect, but every seat is very good.
I hear you, I mostly do the individual measurements to time align the subs, with setting individual filters and finding positioning issues as distant secondary concerns. I'm definitely not going to try to EQ them individually unless there is a sharp peak somewhere I can cut down. I know better than to try to boost out of a null

Anyway, I'm really flippin' happy with Audyssey right now, check out what it did with the last graph I posted:



I want to add a house curve filter will add 6 dB at the bottom of the flat area (around 12.5 Hz) tapering down to 0 dB at 80 Hz, but I'm not sure how to tell the minidsp to do that... yet
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post #49276 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 04:50 PM
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Very nice! I need to learn how to do a house curve on MiniDSP too.

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post #49277 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 05:06 PM
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Do a Low shelf at 50hz gain 6 Q.7

That will get you a rise from 80 to 10hz of 6db

Easy to see the results as you do it, add a peak filter to change the curve, or change the Q
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post #49278 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 05:20 PM
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Good looking response @ratbuddy . You seem to drop off right around 13 to 14 Hz so it looks like you aren't getting much help from the room. Where is your RSC knob set? But more importantly, throw in some music and some bass demos and kick back and listen to those subs.

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post #49279 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 05:33 PM
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Good looking response @ratbuddy . You seem to drop off right around 13 to 14 Hz so it looks like you aren't getting much help from the room. Where is your RSC knob set? But more importantly, throw in some music and some bass demos and kick back and listen to those subs.
Room size is at max on both. I need to find a nice slappy bass track now
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Hi all,

I'm going to have to double check but pending one new order that is suppose to happen within 24 hours I believe all available 18ipal woofers are now spoken for. That is with me keeping 4-5 back. 2 of the originals I used for initial tests and 2-3 new units. I always try to keep a couple back JUST in case there's shipping damage or whatever....as remote as that possibility is with truck freight.

In the past 30 days I have bought out the entire available B&C 18ipal inventory in North America. So now it's going to be ordering direct from Italy most likely. But even so, it's looking like late August/early Sept for more to be on the ground here in Ohio.

So that's the dilemma. Fantastic product at a fantastic pre order price. But now---10 weeks of nothing shipping. Ouch.

Once more get out in the field I suspect demand will actually increase---except for the 10 week wait. So I'm considering extending the pre order pricing for another 4-6 weeks. But with the caveat that the order won't be shipping until late August(ish).

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post #49281 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 06:11 PM
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Neo 115 are back on the menu boys..

Just what's getting some measurement runs tonight. I know a few wanted to see those big black motors.

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post #49282 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 06:13 PM
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Neo 115 are back on the menu boys..



Just what's getting some measurement runs tonight. I know a few wanted to see those big black motors.



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I’ll pass this along to a guy would be very interested


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post #49283 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Do a Low shelf at 50hz gain 6 Q.7

That will get you a rise from 80 to 10hz of 6db

Easy to see the results as you do it, add a peak filter to change the curve, or change the Q
Perfect, thanks! I'm putting it down and walking away.

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post #49284 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 06:39 PM
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I’ll pass this along to a guy would be very interested


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here is a better shot,

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post #49285 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 06:53 PM
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here is a better shot,

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Hi tom. What’s your inventory and shipping speed looking like for the v1510df and v1811? I can’t recall how these models are looking with your time spent on the new models.
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post #49286 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 06:57 PM
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here is a better shot,



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post #49287 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 07:06 PM
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I can’t wait Tom!! But I kinda have to


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I told Tom I'd def be interested in something like that. Dunno about the inverted drivers though, prob just for testing etc
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post #49288 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 07:52 PM
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I told Tom I'd def be interested in something like that. Dunno about the inverted drivers though, prob just for testing etc
The inverted driver is just to check distortion signatures for push pull(one woof inverted). In other words one motor is "pulling" toward the neo magnet structure while the other is "pushing" the cone away from the motor. But both are pushing into the cabinet simultaneously(or pushing out of the cabinet).

The idea is, for non optimized motors, you can see a pretty big reduction in certain measurable distortions. But with these, I would be surprised if it's worth considering. But it is always fun to check.

In any case I doubt I would even consider the idea(push-pull) on any current product. It would be something reserved for a brand new design. But nothing like that is even being considered right now. I'm just gathering data. And in the *very* early stages of that..

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post #49289 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Hi tom. What’s your inventory and shipping speed looking like for the v1510df and v1811? I can’t recall how these models are looking with your time spent on the new models.
Pretty much everything is 5-7 business days right now. Even if we have good cabinet stock. We're focused on the tv36 pre orders so everything else is relegated to "fit it in when possible" for the next week or so.

Tom V.
Team Power.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep,
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post #49290 of 50421 Old 06-13-2019, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Julian View Post
Very good- was already planning to get right angle RCA for the LFE connection, but I suppose I can also figure a way to rig up a right angle power cord.
I have these powering my subs.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

TV: LG OLED 65B7A, Receiver: Marantz SR-6012, Blu-Ray Player: LG UBK90, Fronts: JBL S312, Center: JBL S-Center, Surrounds: JBL S38, Top: Yamaha NS-AW1, Subwoofer: 2 PSA S3000i and one PSA XS-30se--- 5.3.4 setup
http://www.blu-ray.com/community/col...&action=hybrid
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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chuffitychuffchuff , chuffmaster , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , hr chuff'n'stuff , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , psa , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , s3000i , s7201 , tv36 , v1500 , V1800 , v1801 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15

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