Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1644 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #49291 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 07:56 AM
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A lot of people are asking about the databass measurements of the new units. But if you look at the databass database (no pun intended) there are no SVS units that were measured after PB13. Does that mean they are not selling enough of these 3000, 4000 or 16 ultra series subs? I don’t currently own any PSA products, but knowing the ethics of the Tom V. he would never sell or introduce a product unless he is aware of it’s capabilities against the competition or it’s targeted purpose and I can not say that about that many companies on earth let alone subwoofer/speaker companies.
Congratulations to those that got the deliveries of their Tv36 units. They are a steal at the pre order prices considering the cost of those drivers and amps.
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post #49292 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 08:52 AM
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The problem with data-bass is most of the so called enthusiasts that would even use it still don't know how to interpret the data sets. So all it ends being used for is slinging mud in various threads to support X members brand. Honestly that is probably one of the biggest reasons why companies have not been sending subs out as of late for testing. Tom made a perfect example with the Reaction Audio stuff. Great max burst numbers because it was a driver stuffed in a box with no DSP or signal shaping applied to the response. Sure that will get you that 50hz car audio level bass but it's not nothing I want in my living room.

Data-bass is a great source of information but the data has to be properly understood to have any true meaning. Simply going down the spread sheet and comparing X sub to y sub at 20hz max burst doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things.

I will be the first to admit I use to do it and even pushed for getting subs tested. I am part of the reason why the HSU VFT-15 got tested. However as the years went on and I started to understand things better and I realized that you can cherry pick data sets all day to make one sub look better then the other. I use to go round and round with another member that did this just to make PSA look bad. It was silly at best...glad those days are over with.

At the end of the day if you are expecting the TV36 IPAL to match a Cap4000 at 10hz, you are probably going to end up disappointed. That is not what this sub is for. I see it as a sub the can bridge the gap some between ULF capability with upper bass efficiency and ultra low distortion.
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post #49293 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 09:22 AM
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^ This!!

So well put basshead. I myself "was" one of those who used to put more focus on data-bass as the blueprint of sub performance in my novice days, and yes it does have "some" validity. Based on my own, at times "frustrating" experiences however,, there is so much more to consider as burst numbers/distortion are just one piece of the puzzle.

Now a days "performance wise" there really is no bad choice among all brands,,,,, it's a matter of which is the best choice for an individual and their objective.

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post #49294 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 09:39 AM
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^^^

I agree with the previous posts. Max drag racing numbers are fun to compare, but they don't really tell us much about how things will actually sound. And, they certainly aren't necessary for most, even fairly knowledgeable hobbyists, to know that the new TV36 iPal's and Neo's were going to be really excellent subs. (I have been extremely impressed with the use of the 18" iPal drivers. PSA went all-in on that design, in my opinion.)

At some point, Tom will add graphs to his website which illustrate the native shape of the frequency response, via a compression graph. When he does, it will be interesting to compare the various TV36 models, against each other, to see whether they all start to roll-off at the same frequency, and to see how the compression characteristics vary. But, as noted in earlier posts, no graphs that anyone can post will tell us as much about the sound quality as some of the subjective comments posted by both the designer and some of the early buyers will.

I don't personally care if the subs are never tested by an independent third party, and the lack of independent testing won't influence my willingness to recommend the subs to people who are looking for a great blend of mid-bass and ULF. That's consistent with my belief that 99.9% of subwoofer buyers will be content with really good, undistorted, uncompressed bass into the low-teens.

After the pre-order pricing ends, they won't be inexpensive subs, but you get what you pay for (or less, sometimes) and most buyers will have plenty of in-room measurements and owner testimonials to rely on at that point.

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post #49295 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 09:59 AM
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I had the opportunity of hearing a cap 4000 ulf several months back at a fellow AVSer's home...... and while it is amazing (especially the port wind), the thing is just too damn big for me, my room could accommodate a pair but the cost and size vs what I'm getting overall with the TV36IPALS is a no brainer for me.

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post #49296 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 10:07 AM
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If I was spending this kind of money, I would no doubt be comparing subs in my own room. As you know I have a track record of that and findings seem to be surprising compared to what one would believe going in. Eating a couple of hundred bucks when spending $6k in subs or more is a minor cost to satisfy yourself and know that you picked a sub that sounded good in your room and to your ears.

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post #49297 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
If I was spending this kind of money, I would no doubt be comparing subs in my own room. As you know I have a track record of that and findings seem to be surprising compared to what one would believe going in. Eating a couple of hundred bucks when spending $6k in subs or more is a minor cost to satisfy yourself and know that you picked a sub that sounded good in your room and to your ears.
Since you went from psa to jtr to rythmik…..are you going to try psa ipals to make sure the rythmiks are keepers?

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post #49298 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 10:37 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Since you went from psa to jtr to rythmik…..are you going to try psa ipals to make sure the rythmiks are keepers?

May be if Tom sells then to me and accepts a return if I decide to. Keep in mind that one of the ipals is quite a bit more than what I paid for the pair. The more fair comparison would be to a FV25HP or the when the FV28 comes out.


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post #49299 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 11:08 AM
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Pretty sure PSA has a generous return policy, you just pay return shipping - more fair to the customers who keep their subs, IMHO.
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post #49300 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The problem with data-bass is most of the so called enthusiasts that would even use it still don't know how to interpret the data sets. So all it ends being used for is slinging mud in various threads to support X members brand. Honestly that is probably one of the biggest reasons why companies have not been sending subs out as of late for testing.
Agreed. A little information used in the wrong way is much more "damaging" than no information at all. Bottom line you aren't going to gain any sells from those looking for such as they already have enough basis to decide and you might very well lose some by those who would buy being confused by the so called "experts"

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post #49301 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 01:41 PM
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@Hopinater You're probably still in the early stages of fine tuning, but are you boosting the sub level the same amount (or have the same house curve) as when you had the V3600's or the JTR's? With the more robust lower octave, I wouldn't think you'd need as much boost (at least compared to the V3600's); or course you might still want as much.
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post #49302 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
scheme of things.

I use to go round and round with another member that did this just to make PSA look bad. It was silly at best...glad those days are over with.
But it doesn't have to be. Just head over to Audioholics and reengage.
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post #49303 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 01:47 PM
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So, I've been following this thread for years, and still read all the posts every day...but lately haven't commented much.

Hop's initial impressions of the TV36s are really "worming their way into the black matter of my brain", as Max would say. These TV36 Ipals are the first PSA subs that have me seriously thinking about upgrading my dual T18/dual S3000 setup. Unfortunately, the cash isn't readily available at the moment...I recently had to replace my entire HVAC system, water heater and dishwasher.

Then, Tom has to go and announce extra time for the pre-order pricing! Maybe...just maybe....
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post #49304 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The problem with data-bass is most of the so called enthusiasts that would even use it still don't know how to interpret the data sets. So all it ends being used for is slinging mud in various threads to support X members brand. Honestly that is probably one of the biggest reasons why companies have not been sending subs out as of late for testing. Tom made a perfect example with the Reaction Audio stuff. Great max burst numbers because it was a driver stuffed in a box with no DSP or signal shaping applied to the response. Sure that will get you that 50hz car audio level bass but it's not nothing I want in my living room.

Data-bass is a great source of information but the data has to be properly understood to have any true meaning. Simply going down the spread sheet and comparing X sub to y sub at 20hz max burst doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things.

I will be the first to admit I use to do it and even pushed for getting subs tested. I am part of the reason why the HSU VFT-15 got tested. However as the years went on and I started to understand things better and I realized that you can cherry pick data sets all day to make one sub look better then the other. I use to go round and round with another member that did this just to make PSA look bad. It was silly at best...glad those days are over with.

At the end of the day if you are expecting the TV36 IPAL to match a Cap4000 at 10hz, you are probably going to end up disappointed. That is not what this sub is for. I see it as a sub the can bridge the gap some between ULF capability with upper bass efficiency and ultra low distortion.
Well said basshead. When I first started buying subwoofers I too really focused on peak output. But then I realized I don't play my subs anywhere near peak output so what does it matter? I've learned that what I really care about is Sound Signature and Sound Quality. So IMO what's most useful is reading posts by owners to see what they think and then making a decision by (as Imureh said) buying a sub to demo in your home. If you like the subwoofer than you're done. If you don't then return it and try again. No data-bass numbers will ever tell you if the subwoofer will make you happy in your home. Only you're ears will tell you that.

Data-Bass is a nice tool but sadly some people use it as a weapon in the (unofficial) subwoofer wars... all they talk about is peak output and (when its convenient to their agenda) they have the mentality that if a manufacturer doesn't send a sub to Data-bass then that manufacturer must be hiding something. But I don't think Mark Seaton or Tom V are hiding anything. And I always have to laugh how most people rightfully acknowledge Seaton for making great subs and they have no problem with him not sending them to Data-Bass. But they get all up in arms if PSA doesn't. That's an odd double standard IMO.

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post #49305 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
@Hopinater You're probably still in the early stages of fine tuning, but are you boosting the sub level the same amount (or have the same house curve) as when you had the V3600's or the JTR's? With the more robust lower octave, I wouldn't think you'd need as much boost (at least compared to the V3600's); or course you might still want as much.
I'm did that to try and get things set up equally for comparison sake even though its no where near a scientifically accurate comparison. So no I don't need it but I discovered I like it and want it.

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post #49306 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 02:08 PM
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Forgive my ignorance- I'm looking and can't seem to find this TV36 IPAL of which you all speak. Link plz
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post #49307 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 02:09 PM
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Forgive my ignorance- I'm looking and can't seem to find this TV36 IPAL of which you all speak. Link plz


Read the thread please. There is no link. If you seek answers you must read


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post #49308 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 02:13 PM
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Read the thread please. There is no link. If you seek answers you must read


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Reading isn't my strong suit

But I did read, and from what I can deduce I should be interested in one. I found links to the driver, but no idea what the enclosure looks like or what amp its using, etc.

EDIT- found pictures on the PSA Facebook page. Good lord, that would be great but there is no way on earth I will sneak those by my wife. They are kinda prominent

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post #49309 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 02:17 PM
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Reading isn't my strong suit



But I did read, and from what I can deduce I should be interested in one. I found links to the driver, but no idea what the enclosure looks like or what amp its using, etc.


There are finished pictures with in the last 3 or 4 pages from Hopinator. The standard amp he uses on all dual driver subwoofers.


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post #49310 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 02:32 PM
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Early Father's Day present for me! I received my base TV36 during lunch time.

Fair warning guys, the TV36 are very heavy! Getting it up to the second floor was a huge task but we got it done. Good thing that I have two teenage boys to help me out.

Got it in place in my dedicated room and did a quick listen. Coming from a S1800, the TV36 does fill up the room with ease.

Have a great weekend guys!
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post #49311 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 02:33 PM
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Where is @David Charles ? I though he would have been all of over this right now.


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post #49312 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 02:34 PM
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Forgive my ignorance- I'm looking and can't seem to find this TV36 IPAL of which you all speak. Link plz
That's actually my fault. Our website is in need of a big face-lift with all sorts of new info. Many can't even find warranty info, or even basic FR now. It's coming.

All three TV36 models use the same amplifier---our big 2000w ICE platform. See attached. We hand assemble each amp here in Ohio. No control knobs on these are they have just been put together and we'll do a few QC checks on everything, then program them specific to each model before anything else.

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post #49313 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 03:01 PM
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Hi all,

what a week. We got 9 (iirc) TV36 sub out and have another 4-6 cabinets finished now and ready for assemble so another 12-14 should be heading out next week. On top of that we also filled all current orders on the books for everything else except one big 9.2 order. I haven't even had time to check orders for today though so I'm not counting those.

On top of that, a boatload of inside data collection along with a good round of outside stuff today. Verification checks for all three tv36, 3-4 ideas for smaller/sealed, and a couple other "why-not" checks. Wasn't the best day as winds were constant 10-20mph and the rest of the noise floor sucked as well. Between 18 wheelers every 45 seconds to a PARADE starting...well, in Ohio, spring, you take what you can get.. I can pretty much "eyeball" out noise anyway. So well the graphs might not be website presentable they show me what I needed to see.

The main Clio PC won't connect to anything right now so all I can do is take a picture. But that's worth 999 words or something?

Anyway, here is the dual opposed 10. No signal shaping and step 1,2 and 3. It turned out good enough for the time I had with all the (outside)noise. Good enough to try some music and movies anyway. I'll check how it sounds and then fine tune it a little at a time. That process takes quite a bit of time though and it could very well end up a non starter after all of it. But that's the process. You have to put in the hours know what potential is there. Like the man said..."board man gets paid..."

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post #49314 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 03:03 PM
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This is with the mic stand as high as it goes:

Don't forget to adjust the delay on the closest sub to the MLP when taking measurements with both subs combined. It made a big difference for me.
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Where is @David Charles ? I though he would have been all of over this right now.


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I was wondering the same thing. Maybe he didn't pick his up yet.

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post #49316 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 03:10 PM
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I was wondering the same thing. Maybe he didn't pick his up yet.


Yeah but I imagined him jumping up and down after reading impressions from Hop.


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post #49317 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 03:15 PM
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Here is the v1 12" sealed. This is about the smallest I'd go. It's a little less than a 14 inch cube(no grill).

The top set of 3(?) curves are for something else. That was one of the TV36 subs that I check in a few different orientations to the measurement mic iirc. But I'm not 100% sure. I just forgot to uncheck those before I got the 12 inch sealed..

Same drill ahead for this one. Listen with music and movies. Tweak the DSP and maybe the box a LITTLE. Listen again, tweak some more. Then I'll need to have v2 and v3 in the room too just to hear what's up to go along with all the measurements. So I dunno, 180 hours total maybe for all 4 versions if I'm lucky? And then who knows MAYBE one gets to production?

But this is what I love doing.


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post #49318 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 03:19 PM
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Don't forget to adjust the delay on the closest sub to the MLP when taking measurements with both subs combined. It made a big difference for me.
Oh definitely, that's why I measure them individually first, to get them time aligned.
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post #49319 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Here is the v1 12" sealed. This is about the smallest I'd go. It's a little less than a 14 inch cube(no grill).

The top set of 3(?) curves are for something else. That was one of the TV36 subs that I check in a few different orientations to the measurement mic iirc. But I'm not 100% sure. I just forgot to uncheck those before I got the 12 inch sealed..

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Nice! Are you ready to say target pricing on the 12? I need a small sub for the bedroom..
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post #49320 of 52380 Old 06-14-2019, 03:46 PM
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Nice! Are you ready to say target pricing on the 12? I need a small sub for the bedroom..
It's way to early in the process to even begin that---at least as far as specifics I need in front of me to find the best balance between value offered and still maintaining customer service, sustainability, etc. I haven't decided on any one of the "big three". Amp, box, or woofer.

My WISH target? I'd love to be at 549 each and 999 for duals. But that's probably not practical. MAYBE for pre order. More likely something like 649 each +/- 25.

Again, that is a GUESS..

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