Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1645 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #49321 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
It's way to early in the process to even begin that---at least as far as specifics I need in front of me to find the best balance between value offered and still maintaining customer service, sustainability, etc. I haven't decided on any one of the "big three". Amp, box, or woofer.

My WISH target? I'd love to be at 549 each and 999 for duals. But that's probably not practical. MAYBE for pre order. More likely something like 649 each +/- 25.

Again, that is a GUESS..

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$649 is a steal...
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post #49322 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
It's way to early in the process to even begin that---at least as far as specifics I need in front of me to find the best balance between value offered and still maintaining customer service, sustainability, etc. I haven't decided on any one of the "big three". Amp, box, or woofer.



My WISH target? I'd love to be at 549 each and 999 for duals. But that's probably not practical. MAYBE for pre order. More likely something like 649 each +/- 25.



Again, that is a GUESS..



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That seems like it would pair nicely with say a PSA sound bar ?


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post #49323 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The problem with data-bass is most of the so called enthusiasts that would even use it still don't know how to interpret the data sets. So all it ends being used for is slinging mud in various threads to support X members brand. Honestly that is probably one of the biggest reasons why companies have not been sending subs out as of late for testing. Tom made a perfect example with the Reaction Audio stuff. Great max burst numbers because it was a driver stuffed in a box with no DSP or signal shaping applied to the response. Sure that will get you that 50hz car audio level bass but it's not nothing I want in my living room.

Data-bass is a great source of information but the data has to be properly understood to have any true meaning. Simply going down the spread sheet and comparing X sub to y sub at 20hz max burst doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things
The current discussion in a different thread is a PERFECT example of the above. Total confusion over one of the simpler "connect the dots" process. Remember the Pirate Radio charades game? The one dude is like "it's like watching a baby drown!"

Here, (rant mode on---not directed at anyone here)

1) DEFINE "TR". I don't mean "well, something rattled". I mean DEFINE it in a sense that gives all of us a reference point we can use in these discussions.

2) Consider all of the variables that can factor in. There are dozens. Here's an easy one---could Hop's room construction lead to a boost in TR from a given DUT that would not occur in a different room with different construction/placement/etc? If you say "yes" then start the process to first identify it, and then attempt to minimize it as a variable. If you said "no" go away...just go away..

3) Cea-2010 burst with have next to NOTHING in common with a bassy scene. Even IF ALL of the above variables were zero-d out...it's still a WASTE OF TIME to try to correlate a 10hz burst with what a movie is going to demand from the DUT. I must have explained this DOZENS of times and spent 100(?) hours trying to detail it over the past 3-4-5 years. And yet, here we are.

See attached. (again, not my content just found it on the interweb one day) It perfectly illustrates things.

So, as an example, if we have one sub that has a 3dB advantage at 10hz with the tiny narrow band cea-2010 burst(sigh) but the OTHER sub has 9dB more headroom 30-100hz...why it is so confusing that with almost EVERY MOVIE SCENE which extends to 10hz that there will be SIGNIFICANT 30-100hz content. Much more content than 10hz in fact. One sub is just coasting with all that using 1/8th(!!!) the power the other sub needed.

Given the above, is it THAT difficult to consider the sub that measured 3dB lower in the burst is now at LEAST as capable as the other sub at 10hz with a movie simply because it's coasting over the majority of the bandwidth while the other sub is pushed right to its limits(needing 8X! the amp power to product the same spl).

So many variables, and even the very fundamental idea of dramatically different input signal is ignored.


But yeah, I'm in a HUGE rush to add more of my products to this complete cluster of misinterpretation and cherry picking nearly irrelevant "scores". Just like you said basshead. It's all about finding anything to toss mud at the next brand.

Ugh,

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post #49324 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
That seems like it would pair nicely with say a PSA sound bar ?


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I've got some cool ideas for that but it's really not in my wheel house. So much of that is based purely in aesthetics, how much wireless stuff you can add, little flashing lights and displays, meh...that world has past me by...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2JnCXvm_Qc&t=2m20s

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post #49325 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I've got some cool ideas for that but it's really not in my wheel house. So much of that is based purely in aesthetics, how much wireless stuff you can add, little flashing lights and displays, meh...that world has past me by...



www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2JnCXvm_Qc&t=2m20s



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An efficient passive slab to put under my 75 inch tv is all I’d want. Of course with larger drivers than what’s on the market, 6.5 inch maybe?


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post #49326 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 04:55 PM
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It sounds like the new stuff Tom’s crew is building is awfully fun.

I finally got all the rattles in my room sorted and turned the V1811s loose...man these things are great!


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post #49327 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 04:57 PM
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Tom V. Merely asking this to learn sir. I have always read give the sub port room to breathe. The new TV36's, if I read it correctly have a down firing port. How does that work being so close to the ground? TIA.
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post #49328 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mister Julian View Post
Forgive my ignorance- I'm looking and can't seem to find this TV36 IPAL of which you all speak. Link plz

Try post 48941 in this thread.

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post #49329 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by HYPURR DBL NKL View Post
Tom V. Merely asking this to learn sir. I have always read give the sub port room to breathe. The new TV36's, if I read it correctly have a down firing port. How does that work being so close to the ground? TIA.
Down firing has three undeniable advantages.

1) straight always has more effective laminar flow than a bend. So , at least in this instance, we maintain most efficient flow versus front firing ports with a sharp 90 degree bend.

2) down firing means spurious noise from the port can be partially absorbed by the carpet.

3) the air cavity between the port and the floor can be used to "load" the system. Meaning the effective port length is increased slightly.

None of these are game changers worthy of youtube marketing blurbs. But, if you're starting from scratch like I did with these subs...why not leverage everything available to ensure optimal sound quality..

btw- i think we all need more details on your profile avatar?

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post #49330 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 05:18 PM
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What are the preliminary dimensions of the dual opposed 10?


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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi all,

what a week. We got 9 (iirc) TV36 sub out and have another 4-6 cabinets finished now and ready for assemble so another 12-14 should be heading out next week. On top of that we also filled all current orders on the books for everything else except one big 9.2 order. I haven't even had time to check orders for today though so I'm not counting those.

On top of that, a boatload of inside data collection along with a good round of outside stuff today. Verification checks for all three tv36, 3-4 ideas for smaller/sealed, and a couple other "why-not" checks. Wasn't the best day as winds were constant 10-20mph and the rest of the noise floor sucked as well. Between 18 wheelers every 45 seconds to a PARADE starting...well, in Ohio, spring, you take what you can get.. I can pretty much "eyeball" out noise anyway. So well the graphs might not be website presentable they show me what I needed to see.

The main Clio PC won't connect to anything right now so all I can do is take a picture. But that's worth 999 words or something?

Anyway, here is the dual opposed 10. No signal shaping and step 1,2 and 3. It turned out good enough for the time I had with all the (outside)noise. Good enough to try some music and movies anyway. I'll check how it sounds and then fine tune it a little at a time. That process takes quite a bit of time though and it could very well end up a non starter after all of it. But that's the process. You have to put in the hours know what potential is there. Like the man said..."board man gets paid..."

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post #49331 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HYPURR DBL NKL View Post
Tom V. Merely asking this to learn sir. I have always read give the sub port room to breathe. The new TV36's, if I read it correctly have a down firing port. How does that work being so close to the ground? TIA.
Down firing has three undeniable advantages.

1) straight always has more effective laminar flow than a bend. So , at least in this instance, we maintain most efficient flow versus front firing ports with a sharp 90 degree bend.

2) down firing means spurious noise from the port can be partially absorbed by the carpet.

3) the air cavity between the port and the floor can be used to "load" the system. Meaning the effective port length is increased slightly.

None of these are game changers worthy of youtube marketing blurbs. But, if you're starting from scratch like I did with these subs...why not leverage everything available to ensure optimal sound quality..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

btw- i think we all need more details on your profile avatar?

Tom V.
Team Power.
Thanks for the explanation Tom, appreciate it. I sent sent ya a PM on my avatar, so as to not derail the thread with non (although cool) HT stuff.
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post #49332 of 50346 Old 06-14-2019, 05:31 PM
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What are the preliminary dimensions of the dual opposed 10?
right now it's 14x12x12 iirc.

Here's a photo next to a mt110.

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post #49333 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
right now it's 14x12x12 iirc.

Here's a photo next to a mt110.

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I'll bite-whats the small driver on top of the dual opposed 10?
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post #49334 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 08:49 AM
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How about a folded horn sub along the likes of the Tuba HT?

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post #49335 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 09:03 AM
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I'll bite-whats the small driver on top of the dual opposed 10?
Looks like it could be Eminence Alpha 3-8, with the prominent lumps near the dust cap..?
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post #49336 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 09:07 AM
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I'll bite-whats the small driver on top of the dual opposed 10?

It's part of Tom's new line of super compact subs for people who live in 500 sqft lofts in San Francisco. It's called the "dinklage."



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post #49337 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 01:00 PM
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I would love hear some impressions from @ratbuddy on his listening sessions to the TV36 iPals and @hungq on his impression of the TV36 base.

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post #49338 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 01:20 PM
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It's funny, I can't even describe their sound, because they integrate SO well with my mains. I can barely tell I have subs, other than the massive and ominous presence of limitless bass. It's amazing how subtle yet powerful the new subs are. I'm listening to Zero One: Psy-Fi (looks like its available at http://www.zero-one.org/psyfi.html) right now and it's like my front L/R grew a huge pair of balls and hit the gym, but still remembered their manners. I'm not sitting here like 'wow, these subs sounds good,' I'm thinking 'wow, this music is great.'

Oh, while I was typing that, I moved on to The Prodigy: Invaders Must Die. Great album, great band, RIP Keith :/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeuspaul View Post
What are the preliminary dimensions of the dual opposed 10?
right now it's 14x12x12 iirc.

Here's a photo next to a mt110.

Tom V.
Team Power.


This dual opposed 10s, MT110 pair and a class D solid state integrated amp would make a fantastic, affordable 2.1 system.
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post #49340 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
It's funny, I can't even describe their sound, because they integrate SO well with my mains. I can barely tell I have subs, other than the massive and ominous presence of limitless bass. It's amazing how subtle yet powerful the new subs are. I'm listening to Zero One: Psy-Fi (looks like its available at http://www.zero-one.org/psyfi.html) right now and it's like my front L/R grew a huge pair of balls and hit the gym, but still remembered their manners. I'm not sitting here like 'wow, these subs sounds good,' I'm thinking 'wow, this music is great.'

Oh, while I was typing that, I moved on to The Prodigy: Invaders Must Die. Great album, great band, RIP Keith :/
OH YES! That's a great way to say it. That's why I said somehow my PSA 210T's sound even better now. The bass comes from everywhere with these subs.

I keep thinking about Muhammad Ali. These subs float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

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post #49341 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
It's funny, I can't even describe their sound, because they integrate SO well with my mains. I can barely tell I have subs, other than the massive and ominous presence of limitless bass. It's amazing how subtle yet powerful the new subs are. I'm listening to Zero One: Psy-Fi (looks like its available at http://www.zero-one.org/psyfi.html) right now and it's like my front L/R grew a huge pair of balls and hit the gym, but still remembered their manners. I'm not sitting here like 'wow, these subs sounds good,' I'm thinking 'wow, this music is great.'

Oh, while I was typing that, I moved on to The Prodigy: Invaders Must Die. Great album, great band, RIP Keith :/

Have you had a chance to try out any movies yet? Curious on your impressions of the depth of the ULF compared to your old subs as well as the mid range punch.
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post #49342 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 05:01 PM
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OH YES! That's a great way to say it. That's why I said somehow my PSA 210T's sound even better now. The bass comes from everywhere with these subs.

I keep thinking about Muhammad Ali. These subs float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.
That is how the S7201's perform. Glad to see you guys enjoying these new subs.

Does make me wonder how the Ipals will sound in the 7201's when Tom has time to give them a try.
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post #49343 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Looks like it could be Eminence Alpha 3-8, with the prominent lumps near the dust cap..?
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscles View Post
It's part of Tom's new line of super compact subs for people who live in 500 sqft lofts in San Francisco. It's called the "dinklage."



Greg
I was thinking more on the line of @CallingMrBenzo special order custom made soundbar
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post #49344 of 50346 Old 06-15-2019, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by iamsabit313 View Post
This dual opposed 10s, MT110 pair and a class D solid state integrated amp would make a fantastic, affordable 2.1 system.

I recently upgraded my daytime TV speakers. My first thought was a sound bar but I just couldn't pull the trigger. Instead I opted for a slim Marantz AVR with a pair of small Monitor speakers. The system sounds much better now. But the AVR has a sub out and Audyssey and I have room for a small sub. Twelve inches wide is about my limit so the dual opposed 10 would just fit the bill. Now you have me thinking a pair of MT110s would be a nice upgrade to the speakers I just purchased. That would be a really nice system for daytime TV, I'll just have to figure out if they will fit. Thanks for helping me spend my money!
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Originally Posted by iamsabit313 View Post
This dual opposed 10s, MT110 pair and a class D solid state integrated amp would make a fantastic, affordable 2.1 system.

I recently upgraded my daytime TV speakers. My first thought was a sound bar but I just couldn't pull the trigger.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG] Instead I opted for a slim Marantz AVR with a pair of small Monitor speakers. The system sounds much better now.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] But the AVR has a sub out and Audyssey and I have room for a small sub. Twelve inches wide is about my limit so the dual opposed 10 would just fit the bill. Now you have me thinking a pair of MT110s would be a nice upgrade to the speakers I just purchased. That would be a really nice system for daytime TV, I'll just have to figure out if they will fit. Thanks for helping me spend my money![IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif[/IMG]
You can actually use the MT110C as left and right if height is an issue! Hard to beat HE speakers for movie dynamics and jazz/instrument heavy music listening.
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post #49346 of 50346 Old 06-16-2019, 01:48 AM
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I've been spending the past week re-integrating my two PSAs (S3000 and S3600) and I think I've improved things. I've also learned a lot about REW and how to sweep sub+channel as a single speaker, rather that looking at every speaker in isolation, or all speakers together, which is what I was doing before. I've also increased the crossover to 100Hz.

I'd love to get rid of that hole at ~45Hz, but I just can't remove it without making something else worse. I might try boosting it as it's not a full null, but I suspect that'll make my waterfall worse and cause ringing.

The process was: time align both subs, from then on treat both subs as one. Time align both subs to LCR (using a surround speaker as a timing reference), Then EQ to +-3dB across the range, only allowing up to 3dB boosts per filter. I added those filters in to JRiver, level matched, and ran final sweeps.

Today is movie day as it's raining and my wife's out. Overlord will be one of them.
MDAT, for anyone that's interested: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aux8jloQk5bZhaNhEwSs-EoV5IdGaA

Feedback would really be welcomed. I'm probably going to cross-post this to the REW thread as well.
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post #49347 of 50346 Old 06-16-2019, 02:23 AM
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It's funny, I can't even describe their sound, because they integrate SO well with my mains. I can barely tell I have subs, other than the massive and ominous presence of limitless bass. It's amazing how subtle yet powerful the new subs are. I'm listening to Zero One: Psy-Fi (looks like its available at http://www.zero-one.org/psyfi.html) right now and it's like my front L/R grew a huge pair of balls and hit the gym, but still remembered their manners. I'm not sitting here like 'wow, these subs sounds good,' I'm thinking 'wow, this music is great.'

Oh, while I was typing that, I moved on to The Prodigy: Invaders Must Die. Great album, great band, RIP Keith :/
But not as nice as your old v1811's right? lol

Projector:Epson 6050ub Screen:Elite screens manual SRM Pro series 120" TV: Vizio P75f Pre/Pro:Marantz AV7705 Amplifier:Monolith 7x Speakers:Klipsch THX8000-L (LCR) R5800 side surrounds, 5650-S rear surrounds Subwoofers:PSA v1811x2 Bluray Player:Panasonic ub820 Media Streamer:Fire TV cube
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post #49348 of 50346 Old 06-16-2019, 05:29 AM
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ya know I gotta say...with a pair of s3600i's in my room, I've never felt bass deprived in any way, shape or form.

but when I saw this pic...and read hop's vivid descriptions, well, I won't lie to you...I felt the initial rumblings of upgrade-itis
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at the zenith of his nadir...
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post #49349 of 50346 Old 06-16-2019, 07:38 AM
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But not as nice as your old v1811's right? lol
They do sound a better, but the extension is the real difference. Did you get the V1811s dialed in yet? Keeping both??
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post #49350 of 50346 Old 06-16-2019, 08:42 AM
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Watched Captain Marvel last night. Good/typical Marvel movie but I could tell the low end was severely neutered.

I have GOT to get BEW going. Same goes especially for those with the new TV36 models.

See Aron's BEQ graphs and settings as it drops off at 30hz and then like a rock around 24hz without. I felt a slight rumble once or twice, but overall it was pitiful compared to what it should have been

Quoting @Aron7awo settings from BEQ thread

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BassEQ Captain Marvel (2019) Atmos




DTS-HD MA 7.1:
Spoiler!


DD+Atmos:
Spoiler!
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