Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1652 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #49531 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by flyers10 View Post
Since talking about it currently, can someone elaborate on using the Room Control dial? I have dual v1510df's in an open floor plan (about 8500 cuft). I set RC to medium, ran Audyssey and then moved the dial to Large. I did that without any understanding of why though.


The room size control attenuates the low frequencies.


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post #49532 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Okay, yesterday was kind of unexpected. I never imagined at 3:00 PM I would be up until 11:00 taking REW measurements but thanks to Enrico taking time to help me set up the MacBook for REW I was up and running in no time. So last night I just started playing around and was having such as easy time of it I lost track of time. Below is the measurement I took at the MLP of both TV36's with Audyssey on. My room is large. With all doors closed it is at least 5400 cuft and if doors are left open it is 7200 cuft. These measurements were taken with doors closed.

On the low end my room gives me a nice little peak right around port tune then I don't really drop off below the average until about 11 or 12Hz then I drop 6 dB's and flatten out into single digits (not sure how much of that single digit bass would be noticeable though). What's interesting, is that low end peak has often showed up in graphs that were Pre-Audyssey and then Audyssey robs me of it. But with see subs I still have that peak... which I'm really happy about. The subs plus CC graph looks almost identical to this all subs graph but that narrow null at the crossover isn't as deep. That's so narrow I'm not even concerned about it. But I might perform the distance tweak to see if I can kill it.

All in all I'm very happy with this response. I've done nothing but put the subs in place and run Audyssey, I haven't tweaked anything. Anyone see anything I'm missing? Thoughts?
I think your graph looks really good Hop. In fact, if you scaled to the standard 45-105 dB, it would appear even flatter. You are sort of "zoomed up" with your current scale which makes the variance in FR look a bit larger than what it really is. Do you have some room left to turn the LF adjust knob up a bit more for a stronger house curve if you ever want it?

Also, I think being flat like you are into the low teens, you aren't missing anything. Just my opinion. I'd gladly give up some below 12 Hz output in exchange for more 12-20 and added TR(which I would get going from sealed to ported).
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post #49533 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Orbit shifter LFU didn't work for you? Those are some serious subs you have had....
The Orbit Shifter LFU had a bad hum as soon as I turned it on. It sounds like Hopinater had a similar experience:

Spoiler!


The hum on my OS LFU would not go away even when nothing was hooked up to it. It was brand new 20-amp circuit that worked fine with both the S3600s and PB13 Ultras with no noise when fully hooked up to my system. Yet with the OS LFU, the higher the gain on the amp, the louder the hum got.

In asking for help to figure it out, I got near complete radio silence – very disappointing – so I paid the freight (both ways if I recall correctly) in order to return it.

My experience with Tom at PSA and Ed at SVS have been worlds apart from that experience. As Hop mentioned, Tom tried to help him solve Hop’s problem with a competitor’s sub – a class act!

In any event, I could not get a decent frequency response for the OS LFU anywhere in my theater so it likely wouldn’t have worked out even had the amp been replaced and worked properly.

It has been a fun ride with learning more about subs, sub integration and the progression of subs I’ve had. I’m excited to get the TV36s iPALS to hopefully achieve my goals for my theater. This says it all:

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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
The way the TV36 iPal hits with power and weight in the ULF and then clobbers you with powerful mid-bass is truly mesmerizing. I would have hated missing out on these subs.

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post #49534 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:15 PM
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post #49535 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
The Orbit Shifter LFU had a bad hum as soon as I turned it on. It sounds like Hopinater had a similar experience:



The hum on my OS LFU would not go away even when nothing was hooked up to it. It was brand new 20-amp circuit that worked fine with both the S3600s and PB13 Ultras with no noise when fully hooked up to my system. Yet with the OS LFU, the higher the gain on the amp, the louder the hum got.

In asking for help to figure it out, I got near complete radio silence – very disappointing – so I paid the freight (both ways if I recall correctly) in order to return it.

My experience with Tom at PSA and Ed at SVS have been worlds apart from that experience. As Hop mentioned, Tom tried to help him solve Hop’s problem with a competitor’s sub – a class act!

In any event, I could not get a decent frequency response for the OS LFU anywhere in my theater so it likely wouldn’t have worked out even had the amp been replaced and worked properly.

It has been a fun ride with learning more about subs, sub integration and the progression of subs I’ve had. I’m excited to get the TV36s iPALS to hopefully achieve my goals for my theater. This says it all:


I hear ya. It would be great to your detailed impressions since you have experienced few good subs yourself.


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post #49536 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:23 PM
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Easier to move around than the S3601/11’s here are some pictures. I won’t be able to run Audyssey until Saturday after work.


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post #49537 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:27 PM
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[QUOTE

Easier to move around than the S3601/11’s here are some pictures. I won’t be able to run Audyssey until Saturday after work.


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Is that how you will run them? Laying on their side?



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post #49538 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
[QUOTE

Easier to move around than the S3601/11’s here are some pictures. I won’t be able to run Audyssey until Saturday after work.


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Is that how you will run them? Laying on their side?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]



I have no where else to put them and I don’t mind seeing the woofers. If I go to a smaller screen I can flank the screen but I’m a couple inches shy of doing that in its current configuration



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post #49539 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post



Easier to move around than the S3601/11’s here are some pictures.
I know the TV36s are slightly smaller than the S36xx series stacked but these look huge! With the perspective of the photo, it reminds me of the photos my friends take of their tiny fish held way out in front of them with a wide angle lens - their 1 pound fish look like lunkers.

I'm happy to see you got your T36s in and hope you find the time to put 'em to work and share your impressions!

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post #49540 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Is that how you will run them? Laying on their side?



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I have no where else to put them and I don’t mind seeing the woofers. If I go to a smaller screen I can flank the screen but I’m a couple inches shy of doing that in its current configuration



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]



I was just wondering how the subs perform especially with TR as I bet the port firing into the floor added to the TR that Hop experienced. By design it’s a downward firing port unlike a front firing port that still fires front whether standing up or laying down. Just thinking out loud.


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post #49541 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 04:54 PM
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I was just wondering how the subs perform especially with TR as I bet the port firing into the floor added to the TR that Hop experienced. By design it’s a downward firing port unlike a front firing port that still fires front whether standing up or laying down. Just thinking out loud.


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post #49542 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I was just wondering how the subs perform especially with TR as I bet the port firing into the floor added to the TR that Hop experienced. By design it’s a downward firing port unlike a front firing port that still fires front whether standing up or laying down. Just thinking out loud.


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I believe Tom said you could do whatever configuration suits your situation. That is an interesting point you bring up. I may switch back to a 16:9 screen and will most likely go smaller if I do and I could run them standing up. It does look badass with the four exposed woofers though


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post #49543 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
I believe Tom said you could do whatever configuration suits your situation. That is an interesting point you bring up. I may switch back to a 16:9 screen and will most likely go smaller if I do and I could run them standing up. It does look badass with the four exposed woofers though


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Try them out in both configurations and see what difference you hear and whether it’s worth switching the screen out.


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post #49544 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 05:08 PM
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Try them out in both configurations and see what difference you hear and whether it’s worth switching the screen out.


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The screen may go for other reasons. The contrast suffers a decent Amount having to zoom in so much to fill the screen.


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post #49545 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
The screen may go for other reasons. The contrast suffers a decent Amount having to zoom in so much to fill the screen.


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Ah ok. It would be an interesting comparison for others who may be considering laying them on the side to see what differences are audible.


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post #49546 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 05:12 PM
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Ah ok. It would be an interesting comparison for others who may be considering laying them on the side to see what differences are audible.


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I can’t try. I will say there is more TR over the old subs but I want to hold off a real deep dive until I have set it up properly.

The bass is very clean and articulate these are the first two words that come to mind. I got some decent volume going with Tidal music via hdmi on my compute and the woofers barely move.


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post #49547 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I do. Here is an old graph of the V3600's with Audyssey, this goes back almost five years. I can't seem to find one of the dual V3601s which would have been more recent. I'm not sure what tweaking I may have done after I took this old graph (if any). I'll also include the new TV36 graph again for easier comparison.

Mike Thomas and Mike Butny, I agree with you both, I was really happy to see that house curve. And now that I'm thinking about it, I ran Audyssey with the RSC knob at half way and then turned it to 3/4 after. That probably helps explain that curve a bit. The old V3600's did not have a RSC knob.
Can you overlay the graphs? I am surprised your extension was so low with the the V3600’s. The TV’s look like you would expect with a sharp drop after port tune. The V3600’s look more like sealed

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post #49548 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
I can’t try. I will say there is more TR over the old subs but I want to hold off a real deep dive until I have set it up properly.

The bass is very clean and articulate these are the first two words that come to mind. I got some decent volume going with Tidal music via hdmi on my compute and the woofers barely move.


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Time for some Curtain Shaker
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post #49549 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmmmm


PSA just posted this on Facebook!


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Welcome to Team Power.
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More new toys for R/D."


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post #49550 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 06:18 PM
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True but dual drivers are being used which allows more extension capability. I suspect a single Ipal in a V18 enclosure might not extend as low as the current driver without making the enclosure larger.
I made some lengthy posts about this recently but the cliff's note is...

When the primary design goal of a ported system is unusually deep tuning point---say <15hz for something most would consider "very low tuned" or whatever---then the very first consideration is the cabinet size versus porting.

Effective cabinet volume versus port cross section+laminar capabilities.

Get that figured out before anything else..

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post #49551 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post




Easier to move around than the S3601/11’s here are some pictures. I won’t be able to run Audyssey until Saturday after work.


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Must be a very happy man right one, look at that smile
Looking forward to hear your impressions, after you have done your calibration.
By the way, it look like you are coming with a cold and not feeling really good right now


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post #49552 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 07:14 PM
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Can you overlay the graphs? I am surprised your extension was so low with the the V3600’s. The TV’s look like you would expect with a sharp drop after port tune. The V3600’s look more like sealed
I probably could overlay them but I would have to find the original REW measurement file first. That was the screen shot I took of the V3600 years ago, I still have the REW file somewhere but I would have to dig through a ton of stuff to find it.

It's nice, my room has always had great extension with big subs in those locations. And you are right, the V3600 had slower roll off in my room (strange for ported sub). The V3601 had great extension but rolled off a little faster. I found the screen shot I have of the V3601s with the RSC set to large. All three models of the subs have sat in the same locations (give or take a few inches). I posted all three below.

As you noted, the TV36 behaves more like a you'd expect a ported sub to behave and drops a little quicker. But I can tell you this, with the power of the TV36 iPals the extension is very different. The TV36 have a lot more weight to them than the other subs. The TV36 really pressurizes the room with ULF where as the other two subs didn't do that. It's obvious to me that the TV36 are LT subs where as the others were not.

EDIT: Something else to consider. The V3600 graphs had Audyssey applied but it was not XT32. The V3601 and TV36 are running XT32. All three graphs are taken on different computers years apart with changes in the room's furniture configuration and who knows what else. So these graphs are NOT apple to apple comparisons they are just a general idea.
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Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Last edited by Hopinater; 06-20-2019 at 07:35 PM.
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post #49553 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I probably could overlay them but I would have to find the original REW measurement file first. That was the screen shot I took of the V3600 years ago, I still have the REW file somewhere but I would have to dig through a ton of stuff to find it.

It's nice, my room has always had great extension with big subs in those locations. And you are right, the V3600 had slower roll off in my room (strange for ported sub). The V3601 had great extension but rolled off a little faster. I found the screen shot I have of the V3601s with the RSC set to large. All three models of the subs have sat in the same locations (give or take a few inches). I posted all three below.

As you noted, the TV36 behaves more like a you'd expect a ported sub to behave and drops a little quicker. But I can tell you this, with the power of the TV36 iPals the extension is very different. The TV36 have a lot more weight to them than the other subs. The TV36 really pressurizes the room with ULF where as the other two subs didn't do that. It's obvious to me that the TV36 are LT subs where as the others were not.
It is interesting that the 3601 and TV36 have similar extension according to your REW graphs but sound so much different. That nice bump down low helps I am sure.

Goes to show there is more to sound than a graph.
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post #49554 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
It is interesting that the 3601 and TV36 have similar extension according to your REW graphs but sound so much different. That nice bump down low helps I am sure.

Goes to show there is more to sound than a graph.
Yes, exactly what I was going to say. Measurements and graphs are all fine and good but in the end you have to go by your ear.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #49555 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
The old V3600's did not have a RSC knob.
Was there a non-Ice V3600? I thought all of the IcePower PSAs had the RSC. When was the RSC added?

How has your MLP/sub placements changed over the years? Are your TV36s placed in the same position as the Hop2400s and V3601s?
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post #49556 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I probably could overlay them but I would have to find the original REW measurement file first. That was the screen shot I took of the V3600 years ago, I still have the REW file somewhere but I would have to dig through a ton of stuff to find it.

It's nice, my room has always had great extension with big subs in those locations. And you are right, the V3600 had slower roll off in my room (strange for ported sub). The V3601 had great extension but rolled off a little faster. I found the screen shot I have of the V3601s with the RSC set to large. All three models of the subs have sat in the same locations (give or take a few inches). I posted all three below.

As you noted, the TV36 behaves more like a you'd expect a ported sub to behave and drops a little quicker. But I can tell you this, with the power of the TV36 iPals the extension is very different. The TV36 have a lot more weight to them than the other subs. The TV36 really pressurizes the room with ULF where as the other two subs didn't do that. It's obvious to me that the TV36 are LT subs where as the others were not.

EDIT: Something else to consider. The V3600 graphs had Audyssey applied but it was not XT32. The V3601 and TV36 are running XT32. All three graphs are taken on different computers years apart with changes in the room's furniture configuration and who know what else. So these graphs are NOT apple to apple comparisons they are just a general idea.

Just goes to show that pure numbers don't tell the whole story, which many have said for some time. If you just look at the V3601 graphs they compare fairly well with the TV36. However, as you have stated, the extension of the TV36 is much different - and for the better.
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post #49557 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Was there a non-Ice V3600? I thought all of the IcePower PSAs had the RSC. When was the RSC added?

How has your MLP/sub placements changed over the years? Are your TV36s placed in the same position as the Hop2400s and V3601s?
I'm pretty sure that the V3600 didn't have a RSC knob. I may be wrong though. But I don't remember it having one.... Hmmmmm.

MLP is the same, sub placement is the same for all the big subs I've had in the past five years. But see my edit on the other post.... other things were different when each graph was taken. The room has been morphing and improving through time.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #49558 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
It is interesting that the 3601 and TV36 have similar extension according to your REW graphs but sound so much different. That nice bump down low helps I am sure.

Goes to show there is more to sound than a graph.
More then likely because the sweep level is so low. Take the sweeps at the same level as you would normally listen to a movie(which would be much louder then 95db to pressurize a room in the 12-20hz) and I bet the response shape looks different. My guess is the V36 subs start to pull down on the low end where the TV36 maintains it's response shape from a low level sweep all the way up to near Max levels. That is why comparing base response graphs between different subs doesn't tell us the entire story. Long term compression is more useful as it shows how the response changes as volume increases. I bet if hop posted 110+db level sweeps between all 3 subs things would look a bit different below 20hz

Last edited by basshead81; 06-20-2019 at 09:22 PM.
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post #49559 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
More then likely because the sweep level is so low. Take the sweeps at the same level as you would normally listen to a movie(which would be much louder then 95db to pressurize a room in the 12-20hz) and I bet the response shape looks different. My guess is the V36 subs start to pull down on the low end where the TV36 maintains it's response shape from a low level sweep all the way up to near Max levels. That is why comparing base response graphs between different subs doesn't tell us the entire story. Long term compression is more useful as it shows how the response changes as volume increases. I bet if hop posted 110+db level sweeps between all 3 subs things would look a bit different below 20hz
Yep. I like to run sweeps with the subs hot up to the highest MV point I listen to and then look for compression.
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post #49560 of 51124 Old 06-20-2019, 11:54 PM
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Is the V3600 the same as the V3600i? The V3600i has an RSC knob. https://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages/v3600i


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I'm pretty sure that the V3600 didn't have a RSC knob. I may be wrong though. But I don't remember it having one.... Hmmmmm.

MLP is the same, sub placement is the same for all the big subs I've had in the past five years. But see my edit on the other post.... other things were different when each graph was taken. The room has been morphing and improving through time.

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