Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1656 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #49651 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Conrad Nash View Post
Nice, thanks. I'm going to have to pick up one of those USB-c breakout boxes that has HDMI and line out then.
Sorry for taking this far OT.
LOL... Off track? This is the PSA thread, we wander off track all the time. It's what makes this thread so interesting and fun. Besides, REW and getting it to work on your computer isn't off track because we are trying to optimize our subwoofer setup and REW is a tool in our tool box to do so.

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post #49652 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Conrad Nash View Post
Does it support the selection of individual channels over HDMI? That's the main benefit of Asio over Java on Windows.
Not only that, the HDMI channels are labeled the way it should be: L, R, C, L+R, LFE, SR, SL, SRL, SRR. No numbers for the channels like on Windows. There is a reason that for audio applications like DAW software, studio and live audio applications, Core Audio (MAC) is preferred over ASIO.
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post #49653 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 09:50 AM
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I figured people will be measuring how hot with a mic or spl meter. You can then figure out how many clicks on the gain it equals in spl at the seats. At DB it has been measured that many processors don't have a clean enough signal when having the sub trim high and running reference. Now this is for reference levels and worst case scenerios so one will never have to worry about clipping the input. If one gets too much noise than I would try different cables, or ground the system better. All the people with a UMIK makes this very easy to figure out. I mean we are spending thousands on our sub system, a little more to know what are subs gains do is not that hard. If somebody has problems with input voltage than they might have to turn the trim up a little.
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post #49654 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I know what you mean. The mid-bass is so nice with these subs. Have you tried any movie material? I would love to read your impressions overall of your new sub.
Watched Captain Marvel and Hunter Killer yesterday. The improvements with movies aren't as dramatic as with music, but you can definitely tell there is more output below 25 hz than the old subs with more weight. The extra extension makes the BOSS platform feel more realistic as well. Just like with music, I have yet to have the sub lose its composure when driven very hard which allows me to run the sub hotter than I could before. It's hard to describe, but the sub also seems to disappear until called upon.

I haven't spent much time fine tuning yet because I didn't want my first impressions to be affected by what I saw in a graph. I plan to spend a good bit of time over the next week getting everything dialed in with REW.
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post #49655 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 10:41 AM
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Hey, if you have a system that works for you, great. I'll stick to what the experts have recommended

Anyway, I finally got the stupid ring to break free on my CSL UMIK today and ran another set of sweeps after adjusting the mic to give more headroom. I only got 3 dB more than the last set before my wife expressed serious concerns about breaking the house, and I agreed. Maybe I'll grab some painters tape and do one of those stupid excursion videos.. but maybe now

The distortion on the TV36ipals is amazingly low, single digits everywhere, and mostly in the 1-2% range at 120+ dB in-room. Below tune, THD climbs up to 9.2% at 11 Hz, then drops off a cliff to 43% at 10 Hz. In my space, the highest I can hit at 10 Hz seems to be ~106 dB. At 11 Hz, where distortion was still under control, I saw 111 dB with 9.2% THD, almost all 2nd harmonic. At tune (13.5 Hz) I saw 4.02% THD at 121.2 dB. Peak output for that final measurement was at 17.75 Hz, which was 125.7 dB and 3.67% THD. From 21 Hz on up, distortion was under 3% at levels around 120 dB.
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post #49656 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Hey, if you have a system that works for you, great. I'll stick to what the experts have recommended

Anyway, I finally got the stupid ring to break free on my CSL UMIK today and ran another set of sweeps after adjusting the mic to give more headroom. I only got 3 dB more than the last set before my wife expressed serious concerns about breaking the house, and I agreed. Maybe I'll grab some painters tape and do one of those stupid excursion videos.. but maybe now

The distortion on the TV36ipals is amazingly low, single digits everywhere, and mostly in the 1-2% range at 120+ dB in-room. Below tune, THD climbs up to 9.2% at 11 Hz, then drops off a cliff to 43% at 10 Hz. In my space, the highest I can hit at 10 Hz seems to be ~106 dB. At 11 Hz, where distortion was still under control, I saw 111 dB with 9.2% THD, almost all 2nd harmonic. At tune (13.5 Hz) I saw 4.02% THD at 121.2 dB. Peak output for that final measurement was at 17.75 Hz, which was 125.7 dB and 3.67% THD. From 21 Hz on up, distortion was under 3% at levels around 120 dB.
I'm guessing if you ran the sweeps from 35 - 100 hz and kept raising the volume until you hit compression in that range, you could hit some insane levels.

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post #49657 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 11:59 AM
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It is not about my system or my advice, it came from experts. I guess it depends on who your experts are?
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post #49658 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
It is not about my system or my advice, it came from experts. I guess it depends on who your experts are?


My personal experience has been that keeping sub trim levels well into the negative and boosting with sub amp resulted in cleaner bass. Basshead reported the same. So I concur with what you have stated.


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post #49659 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
It is not about my system or my advice, it came from experts. I guess it depends on who your experts are?
I'm far too lazy to dig up a firsthand source, but @batpig has recently quoted both Mark Seaton and Ed Mullen as suggesting it.

Like I said, if your method makes you happy, go for it.
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post #49660 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CallingMrBenzo View Post
Okay so REW and my newer laptop sucks. My Umik is recognized but unavailable to use. I tried to stop the audioserv process in the task manager and it doesn’t let me




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I send you an email and Pm'd my phone number. Give me a ring and we can walk through it to get you up and running on REW and the umik. It is a PITA but it's worth it to see what your system is doing.

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post #49661 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I'm far too lazy to dig up a firsthand source, but @batpig has recently quoted both Mark Seaton and Ed Mullen as suggesting it.

Like I said, if your method makes you happy, go for it.
It is not my method. It was based on measurements over at data-bass and keeping a clean input signal.
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post #49662 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 01:13 PM
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It is not my method. It was based on measurements over at data-bass and keeping a clean input signal.
'Your method' as in 'the method you use.' Sorry, I thought that was clear.
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post #49663 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
It is not about my system or my advice, it came from experts. I guess it depends on who your experts are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
My personal experience has been that keeping sub trim levels well into the negative and boosting with sub amp resulted in cleaner bass. Basshead reported the same. So I concur with what you have stated.


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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I'm far too lazy to dig up a firsthand source, but @batpig has recently quoted both Mark Seaton and Ed Mullen as suggesting it.

Like I said, if your method makes you happy, go for it.

It probably depends somewhat on the AVR in question, in conjunction with the particular subwoofer. But, Ed Mullen and Mark Seaton were two of the first subwoofer makers who I heard recommending using higher gain levels and lower trim levels in order to prevent clipping at master volume levels of about -10 or higher. Both of them are quoted in the Audyssey FAQ and also in Section II of the Guide, linked in my signature. Some other sub makers have since suggested the same thing. With some AVR/sub combinations, keeping trim levels well in the negative can help to prevent clipping.

As stated in a previous post, some subwoofers also don't achieve their max output levels, when calibrated with an AVR, unless gain levels are quite high. That is true with several of the older SVS subs, with digital controls, as has been demonstrated several times by the SVS engineers. The newer models can achieve max output levels with gain levels -10 or -15 below max, but some of the older models cannot.

The problem is that we won't always know in advance which AVR/subwoofer models do, or do not, need higher gain levels and lower trim levels. For instance, in the example that Ray used, Basshead decided to raise the gain on his older PSA subs (and lower the trim level correspondingly to the same net volume level) when he had a Yamaha AVR, and he found that he obtained 3db more headroom than he had before. That was according to his compression tests, and that was just from the gain/trim adjustment. Other subwoofer owners, of various brands, have confirmed the same thing.

This is strictly a YMMV proposition, but it seems like a fairly harmless precaution to take unless we have performed compression testing of our own and are sure that we aren't clipping or reducing potential max output on our particular AVR/sub combination.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #49664 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I know what you mean. The mid-bass is so nice with these subs. Have you tried any movie material? I would love to read your impressions overall of your new sub.
I should also mention that the differences in ULF output are very noticeable upstairs. The theater setup is in a large open basement on a concrete slab but the added ULF is shaking the upstairs more violently than before.
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post #49665 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 04:13 PM
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I should also mention that the differences in ULF output are very noticeable upstairs. The theater setup is in a large open basement on a concrete slab but the added ULF is shaking the upstairs more violently than before.
Yeah... sounds about right. In my living room (which sits above the basement HT) we have a coffee table/chest that has a top that hinges up to open. The other day I was watching something and my wife came downstairs and told me the top of the coffee table was lifting (jumping) up and down.
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post #49666 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 04:14 PM
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Yeah... sounds about right. In my living room (which sits above the basement HT) we have a coffee table/chest that has a top that hinges up to open. The other day I was watching something and my wife came downstairs and told me the top of the coffee table was lifting (jumping) up and down.
I have been working on a plan to rework the basement which will include a slightly elevated wooden floor.
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post #49667 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 04:55 PM
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I'm sorry, I have to be that guy because I am terrible at forums. I've been trying to read through all of the posts about the new TV36 but the amount of traffic on this forum has been overwhelming. Can someone please give me a quick notes post about the new sub or is there a post someone can direct me to?

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post #49668 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 07:34 PM
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This is one of the biggest differences I have found with the TV36-iPal. With my old subs, once I got past around 7 db hot, things started sounding a little "off", especially with music. With the TV36, I am running the sub 10 db hot and at times a good bit more, and it always sounds good. This thing just never loses its composure, especially in the mid bass. I upgraded to the TV36 to get more ULF, but am finding that the mid bass improvements are what I am enjoying the most.
Yep, that's were these drivers shine.

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.
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post #49669 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
My personal experience has been that keeping sub trim levels well into the negative and boosting with sub amp resulted in cleaner bass. Basshead reported the same. So I concur with what you have stated.


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Agreed. With my Marantz, I split the difference per se. Audyssey sets my subs around -9, I manually bump the sub trim to -6 and move the amp gain up 1 notch so they are around 11:00. This gives me the amount of bass I want and it maintains a good balance far as Auto-on working at lower volumes along with no signal clipping at higher volumes.
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post #49670 of 55723 Old 06-23-2019, 09:14 PM
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I'm sorry, I have to be that guy because I am terrible at forums. I've been trying to read through all of the posts about the new TV36 but the amount of traffic on this forum has been overwhelming. Can someone please give me a quick notes post about the new sub or is there a post someone can direct me to?

Here is a clip from Tom's post #48022 . Start reading around this post for more info...





Here are the main details.


* The amplifier is our 1920w platform. I can make the argument it is putting out more power but I'm really not worried about trying to market these. At the moment interest is way beyond anything I could have hoped for anyway.

* The cabinet is the same for all three options. Two front firing 18s, single down firing 6 inch flared port, full face grill.

20x26x48( WxDxH ).

Tune is 13.5hz +/- 0.5hz.

FR is (+/-3) 15hz-150hz anechoic. 7-10hz pressurization in all but the largest rooms.

Cea-2010 will be finalized as weather/time allows. I will say along with the dramatic increase in 10-20hz performance we haven't sacrificed much mid and upper bass impact. There's *some* trade off of course, that is just physics. But even if you put the base version next to a V3611 you would be hard pressed to notice this. This is due to the fact that the V3611 was such a mid/upper bass entity that even if you lose a couple/few dB there it's hard to find source material and listening levels where it's jumps out at you.

The woofer options are as follows--- There are three.

TV36 = standard 18 inch woofers we've been using with outstanding results for quite a while now. Full details on available on any current 18 inch based product page on the website.

$2199 pre-order. $2599 is the estimated regular pricing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

TV36neo = A high end Neo woofer from Italy(B&C). Exceptional distortion control, exceptionally strong motor, build quality and power handling/thermal limits are far beyond anything we've offered to date.

$2599 pre-order. $2999 is the estimated regular pricing.
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc...-0/4/18ds115-4

This one sound a bit different than the base version. Better overall. Similar <25hz to the base version but this driver is such a beast in efficiency it goes toe-toe with the V3611 in 40-100hz without breaking a sweat. So my one line description would be.

~ The TV36neo give you all of the violent mid and upper bass of the V3611 while pressurizing the room down to 10hz and below.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TV36ipal + Ipal 18" woofer. Arguably the highest quality 18 inch woofer available anywhere, at any price.

$2999 pre-order. $3599 is the estimated regular pricing.

https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc.../18-0/2/18ipal

The cleanest, most linear, strongest motor woofer I have ever used/measured...and there's been nothing even remotely close. The sound quality reflects this as well. I'm not going to wax poetically, that's always been difficult. But our proprietary ICE design match with IPAL technology is truly something special.


Let the games begin. (fyi, #1 thru #7 are already in the books)


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #49671 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 03:43 AM
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Hi
just wondering - how do you calculate what multiple drivers equals to... read somewhere that the xtz 3x12 equals to a 21" but what about 2 x 18 " ? Guess other factors may be in play here.
From reading this AVS thread I can tell that many bassheads live in the US - so many options you have here - JTR, PSA, Rythmik and also not at earthshattering prices. In Denmark most of the subs available is 12" subs where they claim depth charge performance (ya right). Then you can import them and cost sky rocket - because of import tax + shipping. Not even sure that the new PSA subs will ever hit Europe - so only real option available is the xtz 3x12 - where performance is great and price is nice.

So 3x12" sub - what should I compare that to ? 18" or 21 " or ?
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post #49672 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 04:45 AM
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Hi
just wondering - how do you calculate what multiple drivers equals to... read somewhere that the xtz 3x12 equals to a 21" but what about 2 x 18 " ? Guess other factors may be in play here.
From reading this AVS thread I can tell that many bassheads live in the US - so many options you have here - JTR, PSA, Rythmik and also not at earthshattering prices. In Denmark most of the subs available is 12" subs where they claim depth charge performance (ya right). Then you can import them and cost sky rocket - because of import tax + shipping. Not even sure that the new PSA subs will ever hit Europe - so only real option available is the xtz 3x12 - where performance is great and price is nice.

So 3x12" sub - what should I compare that to ? 18" or 21 " or ?
Databass tested that, you can read about it here. It's a pretty good subwoofer. It doesn't go as deep as some of the American ones, but is no joke.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c0e...e0d8?_k=80lwly
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post #49673 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 07:28 AM
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Hi
just wondering - how do you calculate what multiple drivers equals to... read somewhere that the xtz 3x12 equals to a 21" but what about 2 x 18 " ? Guess other factors may be in play here.
From reading this AVS thread I can tell that many bassheads live in the US - so many options you have here - JTR, PSA, Rythmik and also not at earthshattering prices. In Denmark most of the subs available is 12" subs where they claim depth charge performance (ya right). Then you can import them and cost sky rocket - because of import tax + shipping. Not even sure that the new PSA subs will ever hit Europe - so only real option available is the xtz 3x12 - where performance is great and price is nice.

So 3x12" sub - what should I compare that to ? 18" or 21 " or ?
Generally, when people start comparing this way they are talking about surface area of driver and thus the rough amount of air that can be moved by a single cycle of movement from the cone. There's actually a lot more to it than this (efficiency, the amount of xmax, amplifier power, etc, etc), but if you have drivers of the same series and similar characteristics but of just different sizes, it gives a very very rough idea of potential. Potential vs actual implementation is yet another variable.

Since they are generally just talking about surface area, you can just calculate yourself by using Pi*Rsquared for a rough idea. So 3x12 would be just slightly less than a single 21" in those terms, but you shouldn't expect 3x12 to necessarily behave the same way as a single 21"
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post #49674 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 07:31 AM
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To check the relative cone areas, you can just square the radius. Bear in mind it won't be perfectly accurate since different woofers have different surround widths and cone slopes, but it should get you in the ballpark. A 12" woofer, ignoring the surround, would be 6^2 = 36, an 18" would be 9^2 = 81, so a pair of 12s is a little less area than a single 18, but three 12s should have 36 * 3 = 108 vs 81, or about 25% more cone area. Again, the surround widths will throw this off, it might be safer to subtract 1.5" from the diameter or .75" off the radius before squaring if you want a more realistic way to compare.

edit: Ahh was typing while the post above this went up. I skip the 'multiply by pi' part since it has no bearing on the relative sizes and just adds complexity
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post #49675 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
edit: Ahh was typing while the post above this went up. I skip the 'multiply by pi' part since it has no bearing on the relative sizes and just adds complexity
All good. I actually do the same but included pi for sake of completeness in case the math police are watching.
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post #49676 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 08:13 AM
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you can't compare drivers by surface area alone...you need to know how much linear excursion each driver has as well.
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post #49677 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 08:18 AM
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Also works good for figuring out which size pizza is the best deal, just subtract an inch to account for the crust.

edit: Yeah, basshead, that's implicit. We're just talking about 'all else equal' comparison of woofer sizes.
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post #49678 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 09:37 AM
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I've been absent for a while due to life events, namely buying a house. I've caught a decent amount of info re: the new drivers and the TV36. That's going to be way out of my price & WAF range, but I've convinced my wife that an open floor plan and a sealed sub don't mix. I'm probably going to be trading in a S1801 for a V1811 by the end of the year, have we heard if the iPAL and neo drivers are going to be offered in the single driver cabinets?

Samsung UN55JS8500
Sony UBP-X800
Denon X3300
Energy RC-50, Energy RC-LCR, Mirage OMD-5
PSA S1801
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post #49679 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by chainwallet View Post
I've been absent for a while due to life events, namely buying a house. I've caught a decent amount of info re: the new drivers and the TV36. That's going to be way out of my price & WAF range, but I've convinced my wife that an open floor plan and a sealed sub don't mix. I'm probably going to be trading in a S1801 for a V1811 by the end of the year, have we heard if the iPAL and neo drivers are going to be offered in the single driver cabinets?
I know Tom is at least testing it, but I don't think there are any definitive plans.
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Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
Sub: PSA TV36-iPal
Speakers: 3 x Chane A2.4 LCR, Klipsch Quintet Surrounds
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post #49680 of 55723 Old 06-24-2019, 11:40 AM
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They are huge!
@imureh you made this post a couple of weeks ago when you saw the pictures of the TV36. You are right, these subs are not small. Over the past five years I've had V3600s and V3601's sitting in my HT and I was very used to their size and they kind of disappeared after a while. The TV36's aren't that much larger but for some reason they seem noticeably larger to me. After two weeks I'm still amazed at their size. I like it... they make a statement... they mean business.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

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