Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1682 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #50431 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 08:42 AM
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So I'm living through all you guys!
And as the creator of this thread, you have provided the perfect platform for vicarious living @ 50,428 post and counting - well done! Sorry to hear about the job and life issues. We are all hope things turn around for you buddy.
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post #50432 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 08:44 AM
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I posted this before but here in a low-res picture of CLIO measuring some DSP tuning on the sealed-12.

Bottom is native(no DSP tuning). Then you can see where I was heading before first listening sessions. The top 2-3 lines(way above the others) were the TV36 subs measured outside that day. I just left those up without thinking about it while measuring the little sub.

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post #50433 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 08:52 AM
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Speaking of measuring TV36s outside, compression sweeps coming any time soon? I won't be finding the limits within my house :P
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post #50434 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
How about a nice pair of veneered S3010s? Those should help with the gf and give you a good amount of output.
I thought about that. The SAF is pretty generous in my case, it doesn't have to be beautiful but if I had a pair of 200lb speakers then I might be pushing it. haha. I looked at the S3010s but they were more costly and not the same output. My room is so open I think the vented makes sense, in a smaller/normal room I'd probably be more likely to go sealed.

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It's a double edge machete. I post a picture of four 18Ipal in a S7201 cabinet just so I can check physical clearance and I have guys asking where the link to "buy it now" is on the website. But, I like sharing goofy pictures like that too. Many seem to share in the "wow, kinda cool" process.

One thing I want to make 100% clear. None of our current products are going away. EVERYTHING currently made/assembled right here in Ohio is staying that way. Of course we've added Made in Italy(B&C) woofers to our inventory and, well, what can I say? I'm certainly not going to apologize for offering arguably the very best 18 inch and 21 inch woofers in the world to our product lineup.

Dual 12 sealed versus one s1510. Leaving out the potential benefits of duals with regards to minimizing the negative impact the room can have---FR should be pretty close. Output. Again close...but a slight edge to the S1510 in the mid and upper bass.

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I have been reading through this thread and saw at one point you were having trouble getting cabinets. If that is still the case send me a PM and I know some great makers in the midwest that can do high volume. I've been buying from them for over a decade. Speaker cabinets would be a no brainer for them, they can do high end veneers too.
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post #50435 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 09:45 AM
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Just had my buddy @Hetfieldjames up we did a bunch of demos. Music and movies, ultimate bass scenes and checking out my Benq HT3550 4k pj. Also compared it to my HT2050.
Was super fun and I think he really enjoyed the PSA speakers and subs!
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post #50436 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
Just had my buddy @Hetfieldjames up we did a bunch of demos. Music and movies, ultimate bass scenes and checking out my Benq HT3550 4k pj. Also compared it to my HT2050.
Was super fun and I think he really enjoyed the PSA speakers and subs!
Thanks, appreciate it man. PSA speakers are absolutely incredible! Incredible detail and Dynamics.
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post #50437 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
My living room "theater" is open to the kitchen, office and a large hallway. I'm ballpark estimating based on the square footage of the room (the ceilings are vaulted) about 10,000 cubic feet.. maybe a bit more. Would a pair of V1811s do me well? I mean the next step up is the duals but I think that might push the gf acceptance factor over the ledge.

I have a bit of a fear of finding rattles since these things go so deep, but, I guess only one way to find out... I noticed the other day when a coast guard rescue helicopter flew over me and then hovered in the bay that my sliding door windows had a bit of a rattle.
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
I thought about that. The SAF is pretty generous in my case, it doesn't have to be beautiful but if I had a pair of 200lb speakers then I might be pushing it. haha. I looked at the S3010s but they were more costly and not the same output. My room is so open I think the vented makes sense, in a smaller/normal room I'd probably be more likely to go sealed.

Hi

With a space that large, I think you are wise to go with vented subwoofers. I can't guarantee that subwoofers won't ever be able to make something in your house vibrate, but a Cost Guard helicopter flying overhead, and hovering not too far away, is a whole different world of vibration. I'm serious about the difference!

I am not sure what your bass preferences are like, but with that much room volume, I would be concerned that if you buy a pair of V1811's, you will be back wanting to upgrade later. No problem, you can do that. But, there will be some financial loss, and you may also miss out on pre-order pricing for what I would really recommend.

I would recommend a pair of TV36 Neo's for your situation. They are bigger than what you were thinking about, but the difference is mainly in the vertical dimension. It has been my experience that most of us get used to larger subwoofers after a while and just consider them normal items of furniture. You will see the advice to just go ahead and jump to what you believe will be your end game repeated a lot on AVS---mostly by those of us who learned that the hard way.

The fact is that, as we are exposed to better bass, at lower-frequencies, most of us discover that we enjoy it even more than we thought we would. And, we find ourselves upgrading to get more of it. The V1811's will do a pretty good job with the mid-bass, even in a room that large. But, you won't be getting much room gain to speak of, and I don't think they are nearly as likely to satisfy you in the low-bass frequencies as a larger and lower-tuned subwoofer would be.

I would go with the TV36 Neo's, if I were you. They will be better and more powerful at every frequency, and you will still be able to control the overall bass volume and how low they go, in order to to suit your own listening preferences, via the subwoofer volume and the room size control.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #50438 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 11:28 AM
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And just like that, we've doubled the poor guys suggested subwoofer budget
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post #50439 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 12:02 PM
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Helicopters have 6hz and above! Just check out Lone Survivor spec graph.
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Building the room, speakers, and subs.
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post #50440 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
It will be interesting to see, if the house curve is bringing you to flat than I would get the ported subs, as that will get you even more low end anyways, it depends on that response.

Finally got around to this. This is from Omnimic. This is my 4 triax's in my living room. Trying to decide if I gain anything trading these in for 2 TV42's.


Red is the base frequency response with no EQ from my Mini DSP 2x4's


Blue is with a +12 Low Shelf at 10hz


This is at reference level on my receiver, subs are hot but not sure how much.


No signs of any stress from any of the subs - I am sure I could boost more if needed.


Thanks
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post #50441 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Finally got around to this. This is from Omnimic.


Red is the base frequency response with no EQ from my Mini DSP 2x4's


Blue is with a +12 Low Shelf at 10hz


This is at reference level on my receiver, subs are hot but not sure how much.


No signs of any stress from any of the subs - I am sure I could boost more if needed.


Thanks
Ray Nist
Check the THD at 10hz, if low then try starting the LS at 20hz instead. remeasure both sweep and THD.

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post #50442 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Check the THD at 10hz, if low then try starting the LS at 20hz instead. remeasure both sweep and THD.
Here is the distortion at ref level with the LS at 10hz still. My cursor was on the 2nd Harm Dist value at 10hz


Is the top black curve the frequency response I'm guessing?

Several things fell off of my wall during these sweeps.
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post #50443 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi

With a space that large, I think you are wise to go with vented subwoofers. I can't guarantee that subwoofers won't ever be able to make something in your house vibrate, but a Cost Guard helicopter flying overhead, and hovering not too far away, is a whole different world of vibration. I'm serious about the difference!

I am not sure what your bass preferences are like, but with that much room volume, I would be concerned that if you buy a pair of V1811's, you will be back wanting to upgrade later. No problem, you can do that. But, there will be some financial loss, and you may also miss out on pre-order pricing for what I would really recommend.

I would recommend a pair of TV36 Neo's for your situation. They are bigger than what you were thinking about, but the difference is mainly in the vertical dimension. It has been my experience that most of us get used to larger subwoofers after a while and just consider them normal items of furniture. You will see the advice to just go ahead and jump to what you believe will be your end game repeated a lot on AVS---mostly by those of us who learned that the hard way.

The fact is that, as we are exposed to better bass, at lower-frequencies, most of us discover that we enjoy it even more than we thought we would. And, we find ourselves upgrading to get more of it. The V1811's will do a pretty good job with the mid-bass, even in a room that large. But, you won't be getting much room gain to speak of, and I don't think they are nearly as likely to satisfy you in the low-bass frequencies as a larger and lower-tuned subwoofer would be.

I would go with the TV36 Neo's, if I were you. They will be better and more powerful at every frequency, and you will still be able to control the overall bass volume and how low they go, in order to to suit your own listening preferences, via the subwoofer volume and the room size control.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks. What are TV36 Neo's? Where can I see the new subwoofers coming out?

Side Question: Does the DSP in the PSA's have a protection in it that will prevent you from ever overdriving them?

See below for rest of response...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
And just like that, we've doubled the poor guys suggested subwoofer budget
Yeah, I was warned about that before coming here haha. It would be over budget and over (even lenient) female factor. Right now I have a pair of 12" vented subwoofers that are spec'd to hit 120dB each where one v1811 would hit 126+dB, so by having two I imagine it would be like having four of my current subwoofers plus more extension.

Still I see the point about you get a start and then always want more. A part of me wanted to just get a single and maybe lean it on it's side, but the problem there is I really did get a lot of smoothing in room response by positioning my subwoofers apart (originally I stacked them).
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post #50444 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Here is the distortion at ref level with the LS at 10hz still. My cursor was on the 2nd Harm Dist value at 10hz


Is the top black curve the frequency response I'm guessing?
The drivers and everything fine at that level? Yes, then run the house curve at 20hz and run a sweep. The 10hz level should be even with the 20hz level and then check the THD. Looking at some of the other sweeps with ported subs the distortion was at 12-13% at 10hz near a 115 dB sweep. You can get an idea where you will be. Check the THD along the whole sweep as well, the TV36ipal is under 2% in the upper range. If yours is close they will sound as clean, maybe not the same exact sound, but clean.
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post #50445 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The drivers and everything fine at that level? Yes, then run the house curve at 20hz and run a sweep. The 10hz level should be even with the 20hz level and then check the THD. Looking at some of the other sweeps with ported subs the distortion was at 12-13% at 10hz near a 115 dB sweep. You can get an idea where you will be. Check the THD along the whole sweep as well, the TV36ipal is under 2% in the upper range. If yours is close they will sound as clean, maybe not the same exact sound, but clean.
Which distortion should I be looking at (2nd, 3rd, etc?)

Driver are fine at that level
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post #50446 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
Thanks. What are TV36 Neo's? Where can I see the new subwoofers coming out?

Side Question: Does the DSP in the PSA's have a protection in it that will prevent you from ever overdriving them?

See below for rest of response...



Yeah, I was warned about that before coming here haha. It would be over budget and over (even lenient) female factor. Right now I have a pair of 12" vented subwoofers that are spec'd to hit 120dB each where one v1811 would hit 126+dB, so by having two I imagine it would be like having four of my current subwoofers plus more extension.

Still I see the point about you get a start and then always want more. A part of me wanted to just get a single and maybe lean it on it's side, but the problem there is I really did get a lot of smoothing in room response by positioning my subwoofers apart (originally I stacked them).
Just go for the V1811s and don't second guess yourself. They are awesome subs and will do a good job in your huge space. I had a pair before my current subs, and when I sold them, the guy was like 'these are too strong, I need to sell one.' Going from a pair of 12s to a pair of V1811s, you will see a huge improvement.
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post #50447 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Which distortion should I be looking at (2nd, 3rd, etc?)

Driver are fine at that level
Total THD.

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post #50448 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
Thanks. What are TV36 Neo's? Where can I see the new subwoofers coming out?



Side Question: Does the DSP in the PSA's have a protection in it that will prevent you from ever overdriving them?



See below for rest of response...







Yeah, I was warned about that before coming here haha. It would be over budget and over (even lenient) female factor. Right now I have a pair of 12" vented subwoofers that are spec'd to hit 120dB each where one v1811 would hit 126+dB, so by having two I imagine it would be like having four of my current subwoofers plus more extension.



Still I see the point about you get a start and then always want more. A part of me wanted to just get a single and maybe lean it on it's side, but the problem there is I really did get a lot of smoothing in room response by positioning my subwoofers apart (originally I stacked them).


I’m pretty sure you can lay them on the sides.

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post #50449 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Just go for the V1811s and don't second guess yourself. They are awesome subs and will do a good job in your huge space. I had a pair before my current subs, and when I sold them, the guy was like 'these are too strong, I need to sell one.' Going from a pair of 12s to a pair of V1811s, you will see a huge improvement.
Cheers.

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I’m pretty sure you can lay them on the sides.
Yeah I don't see why that would be an issue, but a pair of refrigerators laying on their sides is still a pair of refrigerators laying on their side. I'm also not convinced my old house could take it (or after a point won't just become a rattle box), plus the budget issue! Right now I'm surprisingly good in the rattle department, I barely hear anything, but I have a feeling once I start going an octave lower I'm going to be finding where some of these panels resonate!
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post #50450 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
Cheers.





Yeah I don't see why that would be an issue, but a pair of refrigerators laying on their sides is still a pair of refrigerators laying on their side. I'm also not convinced my old house could take it (or after a point won't just become a rattle box), plus the budget issue! Right now I'm surprisingly good in the rattle department, I barely hear anything, but I have a feeling once I start going an octave lower I'm going to be finding where some of these panels resonate!


I was kidding with you. Check my picture out. TV36 NEO’s laid on their sides
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post #50451 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Total THD.


Here is THD


10hz - 7.2
20hz - 2.7
30hz - 3.7
40hz - 1.4
50hz - 0.9
60hz - 0.8
70hz - 0.9
80hz - 0.7


Here is a video of one of the drivers with the reference sweeps.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/UBFokq6jZpo


This was all still with the 10hz LS +12


Edit - I keep failing at getting the youtube video linked.
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post #50452 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Here is THD


10hz - 7.2
20hz - 2.7
30hz - 3.7
40hz - 1.4
50hz - 0.9
60hz - 0.8
70hz - 0.9
80hz - 0.7


Here is a video of one of the drivers with the reference sweeps.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/UBFokq6jZpo


This was all still with the 10hz LS +12


Edit - I keep failing at getting the youtube video linked.
Excellent, try the different LS and remeasure. Also listen to a familiar scene and see if it is better or not subjectively.
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post #50453 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Excellent, try the different LS and remeasure. Also listen to a familiar scene and see if it is better or not subjectively.

Here is the frequency response with the +12db LS at 20hz (red) and 10hz (blue). I don't think my house could take much more, it was creaking and making all kinds of unpleasant noise.


Triax amps are barely more than room temp playing at this level for several minutes.


Here is distortion with the 10hz LS +12db vs 20hz LS +12db


10hz - 7.2/7.6

20hz - 2.7/2.8

30hz - 3.7/3.8

40hz - 1.4/1.5

50hz - 0.9/0.8

60hz - 0.8/0.8

70hz - 0.9/0.9

80hz - 0.7/0.8
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post #50454 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post
Basshead, honestly I keep getting to close to order something but life keeps happening. being unemployed for 3 years and then 3 years to get back to normal. Made it kinda hard to enjoy any of my hobbies. So I'm living through all you guys!



I'm using an old htib and an older sharp tv, roku and so on.


I think next year should be much better for me finally. I'm really interested in PSA's small form factor stuff as I'll still be in an apartment next year. But that's no excuse to not have good sound. Also I need a bigger tv.....
Oneeye I didn't realize how difficult things have been for you recently but rest assured we are ALL rooting for you my friend. I hope this year goes better because if anyone here deserves some PSA gear it is you... the man who started the most popular thread on AVS. We are are here for you brother.
CallingMrBenzo, sk373 and flat4 like this.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - PSA MT110's Rear - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S
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post #50455 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 02:43 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Here is the frequency response with the +12db LS at 20hz (red) and 10hz (blue). I don't think my house could take much more, it was creaking and making all kinds of unpleasant noise.


Triax amps are barely more than room temp playing at this level for several minutes.


Here is distortion with the 10hz LS +12db vs 20hz LS +12db


10hz - 7.2/7.6

20hz - 2.7/2.8

30hz - 3.7/3.8

40hz - 1.4/1.5

50hz - 0.9/0.8

60hz - 0.8/0.8

70hz - 0.9/0.9

80hz - 0.7/0.8

Wow, as I think most of us suspected you definitely don’t “need” IPals. You have a massive amount of headroom and your distortion shows that as it’s nearly unchanged even with a ton of boost at 10 and 20Hz. I can’t imagine those distortion levels would ever be audible. Only thing you’d gain is a different sonic signature, but potentially lose output below the TV36’s tune.

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA S1812 x2; MA’s: Crowson x2
Processing: Denon X4200, MiniDSP 2x4 HD
PJ: Epson 5050UB
Screen: Silver Ticket 106" HC
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post #50456 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 02:48 PM
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Speaking of measuring TV36s outside, compression sweeps coming any time soon? I won't be finding the limits within my house :P
We'll see how much I can fit into the next outside session. Besides the 42, the small12, and a couple others... if I want to seriously consider 18iapl upgrades...that's another 5 subs to get out there if I include the s7201. so 9-10 subs total right there. I do need to get all 3 TV36 back out there and try to figure out how to get "website presentable" curves too. Sounds easy enough...but when you have literally 1000 measurements you might need to do(tuning sigma in real time) and a finite amount of time...all of a sudden making a pretty graph for the website falls down the priority thought process.

I know I need to get to it though, no arguments.

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post #50457 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 03:14 PM
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My living room "theater" is open to the kitchen, office and a large hallway. I'm ballpark estimating based on the square footage of the room (the ceilings are vaulted) about 10,000 cubic feet.. maybe a bit more. Would a pair of V1811s do me well? I mean the next step up is the duals but I think that might push the gf acceptance factor over the ledge.

I have a bit of a fear of finding rattles since these things go so deep, but, I guess only one way to find out... I noticed the other day when a coast guard rescue helicopter flew over me and then hovered in the bay that my sliding door windows had a bit of a rattle.
I agree with the advice that both ratbuddy and MThomas gave you even though they are opposed to one another.

Mike speaks the truth when he said if you even THINK you will want more bass in the future then go bigger now and you'll save a lot of money in the long run. I can attest to that from personal experience. Especially since you have such a huge space and large space requires power if you want serious output (like so many here do).

On the other hand, dual V1811's will be a great upgrade coming from smaller subs so what ratbuddy says about you finding that you'll have more bass than you imagined is true. It's all relative and related to where you are coming from... or said another way, what you are used to. And there is also a lot to be said about sticking to your budget and being happy.

So there is no wrong answer. It just comes down to your long term goals and expectations... as well as your budget. The only thing I would strongly suggest is don't go sealed unless you want to go with dual S3611s because you have a massive room my friend.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - PSA MT110's Rear - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S
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post #50458 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post



I have been reading through this thread and saw at one point you were having trouble getting cabinets. If that is still the case send me a PM and I know some great makers in the midwest that can do high volume. I've been buying from them for over a decade. Speaker cabinets would be a no brainer for them, they can do high end veneers too.
Please feel free to send the info to my support box. [email protected]

Wood veneer has never been particularly difficult to source. The hurdles are quantities and cost.

As far as I know, there's really no one that can provide the finish we use for "satin black". We've reached out to dozens of vendors in the past 5 years to get competitive quotes. It always started with "Oh yeah, we finish stuff like that all the time, we have the big (50-100k)lineX system...no problem at all". And then we would send samples of our finish. Their next communication "HOW do you do this? We have never seen anything like this"? We outline the process(which is incredibly time/labor intensive compared to typical lineX finishes). And their last communication is "We can't do that, good luck".

So getting the raw MDF cabinets for us to finish in our booth is easy. Getting veneer is easy---but very expensive. My problem in this arena right now is our booth was designed for a given amount of production...and we've been up against it all year. It's not inexpensive to scale up.

And ANOTHER consideration is the grills. Right now the same vendor who provide the raw MDF cabinets also provides all of our grills. I know many believe grills are kids stuff! Not the way we expect them to be done. I'll attach a picture of the back side of our grills as well as a close up of our satin finish as examples.

Tom V.
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post #50459 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 04:00 PM
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It sure is a unique finish. Black but sort of sparkly haha. Never seen the finish in-person though. By the way, are we looking at ~$500 for the 12" or is it a little more?
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post #50460 of 57462 Old 07-22-2019, 04:02 PM
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For those applying the low shelf at 10-20hz, what Q are you using? What frequencies get the boost with the shelf down that low?

I’m crossing at 100hz and did a low shelf at 60hz, +6db, Q of .7. This did a nice 6db rise from about 90hz on down to 15 or so. I’ve been boosting another 4-6db in the avr too, but that gets to be a little much especially at -15 or higher.
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