Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1683 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #50461 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 04:27 PM
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Smaller footprint desirability for big subs (TV-42 and future)

For those of you considering the potential of upgrading to the TV-42 (dual 21” iPAL drivers), would you rather that the footprint be smaller and the sub taller?

The design dimensions currently look to be about 24” wide (probably the minimum to structurally hold the 21” drivers in place) by 30” deep and 54” high – around 22.5 cubic feet internal volume.

For similar 22.5 cubic feet internal volume, consider the following alternatives (W x D x H):

1. 24”W x 30” D x 54” H (as currently designed)
2. 24” W x 28” D x 58” H
3. 24” W x 26” D x 64” H (likely smallest footprint – not much more than a V3611 depthwise).

Would those of you considering a massive sub prefer a smaller footprint for more placement flexibility?

My thoughts are that once a sub is taller than 48” or so – it really doesn’t matter if it gets taller as I can no longer use it to put other speakers, remote controls, gaming controllers, etc. on top of it. In my case, I’d love the smallest possible footprint for more placement options and would much rather have that and I don’t care as much about the height as there is nothing I can do above it.

I have no clue about subwoofer design and Tom probably has locked in the design for the TV-42 but I’m still interested in other people’s thoughts in terms of footprint as Tom looks at other designs in the future.

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post #50462 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
For those of you considering the potential of upgrading to the TV-42 (dual 21” iPAL drivers), would you rather that the footprint be smaller and the sub taller?

The design dimensions currently look to be about 24” wide (probably the minimum to structurally hold the 21” drivers in place) by 30” deep and 54” high – around 22.5 cubic feet internal volume.

For similar 22.5 cubic feet internal volume, consider the following alternatives (W x D x H):

1. 24”W x 30” D x 54” H (as currently designed)
2. 24” W x 28” D x 58” H
3. 24” W x 26” D x 64” H (likely smallest footprint – not much more than a V3611 depthwise).

Would those of you considering a massive sub prefer a smaller footprint for more placement flexibility?

My thoughts are that once a sub is taller than 48” or so – it really doesn’t matter if it gets taller as I can no longer use it to put other speakers, remote controls, gaming controllers, etc. on top of it. In my case, I’d love the smallest possible footprint for more placement options and would much rather have that and I don’t care as much about the height as there is nothing I can do above it.

I have no clue about subwoofer design and Tom probably has locked in the design for the TV-42 but I’m still interested in other people’s thoughts in terms of footprint as Tom looks at other designs in the future.
I have one pallet of 21ipal coming in on the first container. I didn't have room for more.

Half of those are already spoken for.

My previous post.

>>>So let's call it 24 wide, 28 deep(with grill), and 52 tall for now.

The TV36 is 20 wide, 27 deep, 48 tall.

That puts this beast at 4 inch wider, 1 inch deeper, 4 inch taller<<<

I do appreciate the ideas. Feedback like this is always interesting. As far as height, two things to keep in mind are internal wave cancellations and shipping. 64 inch high? I mean we're at 72-74 inch tall now.(on a pallet) might be prone to tipping during movement. Just something to think about.

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post #50463 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
And ANOTHER consideration is the grills. Right now the same vendor who provide the raw MDF cabinets also provides all of our grills. I know many believe grills are kids stuff! Not the way we expect them to be done.


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Tom, grills are definitely one of the million balls in the air you have to juggle running PSA.

For anyone that’s done DIY, I think there’s a reason 90% of the builds have no grills at all (perhaps a lot of people like to show the drivers off). But I think for something that seems so trivial, they’re very difficult to make well without a CNC and fit the baffle snug enough to not rattle off and also look even half way decent in the process.

Big props to PSA for paying attention to the little details like this!

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post #50464 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
For those applying the low shelf at 10-20hz, what Q are you using? What frequencies get the boost with the shelf down that low?

I’m crossing at 100hz and did a low shelf at 60hz, +6db, Q of .7. This did a nice 6db rise from about 90hz on down to 15 or so. I’ve been boosting another 4-6db in the avr too, but that gets to be a little much especially at -15 or higher.
Mine is 50 Hz, Q 0.7, +6 dB. I asked here for one that would give +6 dB at 10 Hz and fall off to 0 dB at 80 Hz and that's what I was told. It measured great as well.
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post #50465 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 05:27 PM
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Or you could always make your own grills lol
(Kidding of course, the PSA grills are super duper well made)
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post #50466 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
The drivers and everything fine at that level? Yes, then run the house curve at 20hz and run a sweep. The 10hz level should be even with the 20hz level and then check the THD. Looking at some of the other sweeps with ported subs the distortion was at 12-13% at 10hz near a 115 dB sweep. You can get an idea where you will be. Check the THD along the whole sweep as well, the TV36ipal is under 2% in the upper range. If yours is close they will sound as clean, maybe not the same exact sound, but clean.
can you stop by my house on your way home from work....?

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post #50467 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 06:55 PM
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can you stop by my house on your way home from work....?
I don’t get it. But I would if I could.

The response up top is now like a ported sub and now he knows what it will feel like. He has super low distortion with headroom. A house curve adds lots of power and excursion and he has plenty! I would not change unless he feels he just wants to experiment. I have done that too many times.
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post #50468 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 07:10 PM
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I don’t get it. But I would if I could.

The response up top is now like a ported sub and now he knows what it will feel like. He has super low distortion with headroom. A house curve adds lots of power and excursion and he has plenty! I would not change unless he feels he just wants to experiment. I have done that too many times.
Thanks!

I think I am going to stick with the triax’s. I never measured them in this room at that high a volume level. I didn’t expect them to perform so well. My living room is open to many other areas of the house and other sealed subs have fallen on their face after 20hz.

I don’t really think I can improve much from where I am currently. The triax’s blend pretty well in my room as they are not very tall. The TV42’s would really stand out. Plus all 4 triax’s pull second duty as speaker stands and the TV42’s are too tall for that.
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post #50469 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 07:23 PM
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Mine is 50 Hz, Q 0.7, +6 dB. I asked here for one that would give +6 dB at 10 Hz and fall off to 0 dB at 80 Hz and that's what I was told. It measured great as well.
Do you bump it up in the avr too, or just the +6db low shelf in the MiniDSP?

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post #50470 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 07:53 PM
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Thanks. What are TV36 Neo's? Where can I see the new subwoofers coming out?

In case you haven't found your answer yet, here is a clip from Tom's post #48022 . Start reading around this post for more info...

FYI, each of the versions of the TV36 are out now.




Here are the main details.


* The amplifier is our 1920w platform. I can make the argument it is putting out more power but I'm really not worried about trying to market these. At the moment interest is way beyond anything I could have hoped for anyway.

* The cabinet is the same for all three options. Two front firing 18s, single down firing 6 inch flared port, full face grill.

20x26x48( WxDxH ).

Tune is 13.5hz +/- 0.5hz.

FR is (+/-3) 15hz-150hz anechoic. 7-10hz pressurization in all but the largest rooms.

Cea-2010 will be finalized as weather/time allows. I will say along with the dramatic increase in 10-20hz performance we haven't sacrificed much mid and upper bass impact. There's *some* trade off of course, that is just physics. But even if you put the base version next to a V3611 you would be hard pressed to notice this. This is due to the fact that the V3611 was such a mid/upper bass entity that even if you lose a couple/few dB there it's hard to find source material and listening levels where it's jumps out at you.

The woofer options are as follows--- There are three.

TV36 = standard 18 inch woofers we've been using with outstanding results for quite a while now. Full details on available on any current 18 inch based product page on the website.

$2199 pre-order. $2599 is the estimated regular pricing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

TV36neo = A high end Neo woofer from Italy(B&C). Exceptional distortion control, exceptionally strong motor, build quality and power handling/thermal limits are far beyond anything we've offered to date.

$2599 pre-order. $2999 is the estimated regular pricing.
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc...-0/4/18ds115-4

This one sound a bit different than the base version. Better overall. Similar <25hz to the base version but this driver is such a beast in efficiency it goes toe-toe with the V3611 in 40-100hz without breaking a sweat. So my one line description would be.

~ The TV36neo give you all of the violent mid and upper bass of the V3611 while pressurizing the room down to 10hz and below.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TV36ipal + Ipal 18" woofer. Arguably the highest quality 18 inch woofer available anywhere, at any price.

$2999 pre-order. $3599 is the estimated regular pricing.

https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc.../18-0/2/18ipal

The cleanest, most linear, strongest motor woofer I have ever used/measured...and there's been nothing even remotely close. The sound quality reflects this as well. I'm not going to wax poetically, that's always been difficult. But our proprietary ICE design match with IPAL technology is truly something special.


Let the games begin. (fyi, #1 thru #7 are already in the books)


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post #50471 of 51870 Old 07-22-2019, 08:34 PM
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Thanks!

I think I am going to stick with the triax’s. I never measured them in this room at that high a volume level. I didn’t expect them to perform so well. My living room is open to many other areas of the house and other sealed subs have fallen on their face after 20hz.

I don’t really think I can improve much from where I am currently. The triax’s blend pretty well in my room as they are not very tall. The TV42’s would really stand out. Plus all 4 triax’s pull second duty as speaker stands and the TV42’s are too tall for that.
Let’s not forget it does not roll off under a tune! That adds more than people think and once you have it, get used to it, going away from gets noticed, at least by me. Seriously, if those are the spl levels you use than there is nothing more to achieve. Very clean to 10hz and 5hz to boot. That little dip under 10hz is an Omnimic thing. The hard part is 10hz and under and you have it with clean upper bass, it is the goal my friend and adding more spl is just more of the same. I would not change. Trust me, that is a great result. I have a 21x17 room but my ceilings are low which makes it much easier to pressurize.
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post #50472 of 51870 Old 07-23-2019, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
Do you bump it up in the avr too, or just the +6db low shelf in the MiniDSP?
I set the input at -12 dB in the miniDSP and Audyssey came back at -8.5 on the sub channel. I then removed the -12 after running Audyssey. I haven't needed to adjust further, meaning I am running a total of 18 dB hot at 10 Hz, down to 12 dB hot at 80 Hz.

Edit: We generally watch at -24 to -12 MV depending on the content. I probably should have just turned on dynamic EQ :-P
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post #50473 of 51870 Old 07-23-2019, 07:43 AM
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I set the input at -12 dB in the miniDSP and Audyssey came back at -8.5 on the sub channel. I then removed the -12 after running Audyssey. I haven't needed to adjust further, meaning I am running a total of 18 dB hot at 10 Hz, down to 12 dB hot at 80 Hz.

Edit: We generally watch at -24 to -12 MV depending on the content. I probably should have just turned on dynamic EQ :-P
Very nice. The low end must be pretty nuts.

I never even thought of turning down the input on the minidsp then adding it back in for additional boost over the low shelf. Im assuming the idea there is to prevent a clipped signal being sent from your AVR? I might have to try that out vs adding my additional 6db in the AVR.

On another note, after I implemented my +6db house curve with a low shelf through my minidsp the low end seemed much better vs when I was just straight adding boost via the AVR. I spun some John Wick 2 and the cave scene was pretty insane. I then BEQ'd it with the house curve and it was even more nuts. lol Cant imagine what its like with these ipals.

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post #50474 of 51870 Old 07-23-2019, 08:14 AM
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I never even thought of turning down the input on the minidsp then adding it back in for additional boost over the low shelf. Im assuming the idea there is to prevent a clipped signal being sent from your AVR? I might have to try that out vs adding my additional 6db in the AVR.
The idea was 'ok, the Audyssey app is telling me to turn down the subs and they are all the way to the right side of the red, how can I turn this down without using the knobs on the subs?'

By doing it in the miniDSP, I was able to get it just outside the green bar on the app, and still maintained quantification of how hot the bass is running. I could have just turned the gain knobs on the subs down, then turned them back up to roughly the same position after running Audyssey, but that's not precise or repeatable.
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post #50475 of 51870 Old 07-23-2019, 02:29 PM
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These are very intriguing. I may need to acquire a pair of these if I can set them up in such a way that they don’t disturb any neighbors in the small condo we’re moving to. If I can position them very nearfield, these, along with my Crowson Motion Actuators, I may be able to have some semblance of what I had in my dedicated room with the dual v3601’s. These could be huge sellers for you. When do you anticipate these being available?


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second half of Oct/2019.

More info as everything comes into focus.

Pre-orders start around mid Sept.

I'd expect most/all to be sold before they even get here.

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post #50476 of 51870 Old 07-23-2019, 02:39 PM
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I'm using an old htib and an older sharp tv, roku and so on.
Give me that over a 10.10.10 system and forced to sit through most of what I see posted as "new bassy 5hz movie!" threads----any day of the week. There's like a 100,000 free movies available with Roku. And many of them are commercial free now too. Whippersnappers don't understand the struggle when we had 3 channels and we're constantly playing with things to even get them watch-able..

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post #50477 of 51870 Old 07-23-2019, 02:44 PM
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second half of Oct/2019.



More info as everything comes into focus.



Pre-orders start around mid Sept.



I'd expect most/all to be sold before they even get here.



Tom V.

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Awesome, thanks Tom. I don’t know where you find the time to do all this, but it’s awesome!


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.....Whippersnappers ........

I haven't heard that one in a while!
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post #50479 of 51870 Old 07-23-2019, 03:32 PM
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Whippersnappers don't understand the struggle when we had 3 channels and we're constantly playing with things to even get them watch-able..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

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This and the Ol' TV antenna boogie, lol. Yep, yep right there, now don't move.
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post #50480 of 51870 Old 07-23-2019, 03:47 PM
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Mix in some tin foil on the rabbit ears
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This and the Ol' TV antenna boogie, lol. Yep, yep right there, now don't move.
Channel surfing took forever while waiting for the antenna to turn. Even worse when we got our first dish.

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And then came the gravy years of cable boxes which had a 15' cord so your could change the channel while sitting on the couch tethered to the TV... Ahh the days of watching scrambled skinomax I mean Cinemax and attempting to make out what shape you were looking at. Such fond memories


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And then came the gravy years of cable boxes which had a 15' cord so your could change the channel while sitting on the couch tethered to the TV... Ahh the days of watching scrambled skinomax I mean Cinemax and attempting to make out what shape you were looking at. Such fond memories


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You can admit you had a descrambler box.... the statute of limitations has passed!


I also remember watching Bruins games in the 60's and 70's with 20 skaters on the ice... everyone had a shadow....
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post #50484 of 51870 Old 07-23-2019, 09:36 PM
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Hey guys, quick question...I was watching a YouTube video from a SVS affiliate and he stated this " a 19hz rated 10"sub can out perform a 17hz rated 15"sub at depth"

Anyone care to elaborate on that?

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post #50485 of 51870 Old 07-24-2019, 02:57 AM
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Hey guys, quick question...I was watching a YouTube video from a SVS affiliate and he stated this " a 19hz rated 10"sub can out perform a 17hz rated 15"sub at depth"

Anyone care to elaborate on that?

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I haven't seen the video but I'd assume he just meant the Hz rating means nothing without specifying the +/- number

A "16Hz" rated sub from Def Tech
https://www.definitivetechnology.com...supercube-4000



will measure very differently than a "16Hz" rated sub from SVS
https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000


or PSA (or Rythmik, JTR, Funk etc)
https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/V1510


The Def Tech is probably 40+dB down by 16Hz



Same thing goes for speaker sensitivity, a 98dB/1w/1m speaker from Klipch https://www.audioholics.com/tower-sp...00f/conclusion -- that actually measures at 92dB/1w/1m -- shouldn't be compared with a 98dB/1w/1m speaker from PSA https://www.powersoundaudio.com/coll...ducts/mtm-210t - that actually does measure 98dB/1w/1m.

The number means nothing without knowing how they got it,Klipsch (for eg) use an "8th space,in-room adjusted" sensitivity rating, so its not "Apples to Apples" so to speak

Lots of manufacturers fudge their specs

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon 4311ci Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
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post #50486 of 51870 Old 07-24-2019, 03:54 AM
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HEYY!!!! I'm not that weak!

Oh who am I kidding.... yes I am.
2 TV36's heading to the outlet already-now that would be funny as hell
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post #50487 of 51870 Old 07-24-2019, 03:55 AM
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Great explanation! Thanks!

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post #50488 of 51870 Old 07-24-2019, 04:56 AM
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I pulled the trigger last night on a pair of V1811s. Maybe be here next week and can get them over to my house to play with the following week when I have some days off, which would be good timing.

One of the runs is pretty long, probably ~30-35ft. Monoprice still the best spot for some thick shielded RCAs?

I'm probably going to have to extend the power chord as well. Is it a standard IEC plug?

My current subwoofers require a dbX processor and a pro-sound amp so I'm also pretty excited to have 4U free rack spots again, will free up space to put my NAS on a shelf. The little pleasures in life are sometimes the best...
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post #50489 of 51870 Old 07-24-2019, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
I pulled the trigger last night on a pair of V1811s. Maybe be here next week and can get them over to my house to play with the following week when I have some days off, which would be good timing.

One of the runs is pretty long, probably ~30-35ft. Monoprice still the best spot for some thick shielded RCAs?

I'm probably going to have to extend the power chord as well. Is it a standard IEC plug?

My current subwoofers require a dbX processor and a pro-sound amp so I'm also pretty excited to have 4U free rack spots again, will free up space to put my NAS on a shelf. The little pleasures in life are sometimes the best...
Congrats, my new PSA Brother!
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Subwoofers: PSA S3000i x 2 | L+R Front: Onkyo SKF-200F | Center: Onkyo SKC-200C | L+R Surround: Onkyo SKM-200S | Atmos: Pioneer SP-T22A-LR | AVR: Yamaha RX-A660BL | HTPC: Lenovo Q190
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post #50490 of 51870 Old 07-24-2019, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by anjunadeep View Post
I pulled the trigger last night on a pair of V1811s. Maybe be here next week and can get them over to my house to play with the following week when I have some days off, which would be good timing.

One of the runs is pretty long, probably ~30-35ft. Monoprice still the best spot for some thick shielded RCAs?

I'm probably going to have to extend the power chord as well. Is it a standard IEC plug?

My current subwoofers require a dbX processor and a pro-sound amp so I'm also pretty excited to have 4U free rack spots again, will free up space to put my NAS on a shelf. The little pleasures in life are sometimes the best...
I'm using these for my subs, one of which has a 15 meter run (the S3600i): https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-...dp/B01D5H8IIU/
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