Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1724 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #51691 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Sn1per666 View Post
Sounds like the new neo drivers are an upgrade to sound quality and mid bass headroom but is it at the cost of low bass? There has to be a trade off somewhere right?
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Pro audio drivers have traditionally been limited by smaller xmax values, but some of the better ones have good xmax which allows good extension.
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Not in this case. The Neo and IPAL Excel over the previous drivers in all metrics.
I asked Tom about this specifically, (I was wavering on V1812 and thinking about going S1812)
and he said “The new s1812 scored about 1.5dB higher (on avg) per CEA-2010 from 10-35hz---compared to the s1811.”

So not an earth shattering difference, but considering how much you gain in the mid-high bass? I consider it icing on the cake, especially taking into account that the new drivers will be much more controlled near the limits and much harder to damage, so real world you might get even more “usable” low bass.

I preordered the V1812 fyi.

(Also if anyone is looking for a pretty pair of Infinity 10” subs check the classifieds)

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post #51692 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by gt4viper View Post
I asked Tom about this specifically, (I was wavering on V1812 and thinking about going S1812)

and he said “The new s1812 scored about 1.5dB higher (on avg) per CEA-2010 from 10-35hz---compared to the s1811.”



So not an earth shattering difference, but considering how much you gain in the mid-high bass? I consider it icing on the cake, especially taking into account that the new drivers will be much more controlled near the limits and much harder to damage, so real world you might get even more “usable” low bass.



I preordered the V1812 fyi.



(Also if anyone is looking for a pretty pair of Infinity 10” subs check the classifieds)


That’s awesome and to be expected. So a pair of these equals 3 regular subs. In the low bass region.

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post #51693 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 10:34 AM
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One thing I have noticed and I have written about it previously with the 646 , although it gives off great bass , it can also kill it! At least with mine anyway...I had bought quite a few subs during my first year or two and was always changing things out and everytime I got new ones , I was completely underwhelmed!!! Even going from some SVS PC12's to 2 V1510's , I expected immediate results that didnt happen to the point that I just wanted to box up and trash the V15's.. turns out that every time I would unplug a sub RCA cable either from the 646 or the sub itself , I would get a loud buzz noise that almost seemed like electrical shock lol...It would then basically neuter my new subs to the point that I could max everything out and barely get any bass or driver movement , and then a few days later , Voila'..Bass Heaven...Not sure if this has happened to you , but now I have learned to power off and unplug everything before messing with things!
Interesting...so you think it receiver was triggering some sort of safety mechanism when you unplugged the RCA cable, kind of like how a car will dial back timing if there is a knock?
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post #51694 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Pw3669 View Post
Interesting...so you think it receiver was triggering some sort of safety mechanism when you unplugged the RCA cable, kind of like how a car will dial back timing if there is a knock?
dont know if they have something like that built in , but its kind of what it seemed like....It usually took like a two or so days or maybe 10 on/off cycles for it to go back to normal....Drove me nuts because I thought the new subs I bought were just crap lol...
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post #51695 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by gt4viper View Post
I asked Tom about this specifically, (I was wavering on V1812 and thinking about going S1812)
and he said “The new s1812 scored about 1.5dB higher (on avg) per CEA-2010 from 10-35hz---compared to the s1811.”

So not an earth shattering difference, but considering how much you gain in the mid-high bass? I consider it icing on the cake, especially taking into account that the new drivers will be much more controlled near the limits and much harder to damage, so real world you might get even more “usable” low bass.

I preordered the V1812 fyi.

(Also if anyone is looking for a pretty pair of Infinity 10” subs check the classifieds)


That's pretty much what I guessed several pages back. 1-2db gain down low and potentially 5-6db up top with lower distortion and better long term power capabilities.
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post #51696 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
That's pretty much what I guessed several pages back. 1-2db gain down low and potentially 5-6db up top with lower distortion and better long term power capabilities.
Curious as to what that would do with dual drivers? If I changed all 6 18"s in the 3601's to the NEO drivers , you would guess 6-12db improvement down low and possibly 30db up top?? I know I am probably thinking of it too straightforward , there has got to be something I am missing in that equation....
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post #51697 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 03:39 PM
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This is reassuring....... Anyway, I originally posted about my issue because I was a bit concerned that my new subs were running out of headroom at relatively moderate settings. I feel much better now thanks to all of the experienced members. It really helped to hear that even some with significantly more powerful set ups occasionally run out of headroom. Thank you all for input!
Actually all of these discussions about people getting their new big powerhouse subs and (at first) being underwhelmed is a common topic of discussion here (and other sub threads). I was thinking about this today and the more I thought about it the more it makes sense that this happens. This is a thread that has a huge range of experience on it. On one end of the spectrum we have new guys lurking trying to figure out what their first real sub should be and on the other end of the spectrum we have very experienced guys who have calibrated and dialed in their system dozens of times (learning something important every time they did).

I think the confusion may occur when the experienced guys talk about how incredible their set up sounds. From that some guys may make the mistake of assuming that its simple to have great bass, like the guy with a great setup just plugged in their subs and it rocked the house. The part that gets left out is the hours of moving subs around, playing with delays, experimenting with the RSC settings, running calibration software and then running dozens of REW sweeps and then doing all that over again and again until they are happy with the set up.

The truth is it may take hours of work to get any subwoofer setup properly dialed in. The reality is bass can be really hard unless you have a great room to work with. There are no short cuts and no two rooms are the same. So we all have to solve the problems unique to our rooms to get things dialed in right.

Finally the worst part of it all is this... At least half of the performance of any subwoofer is THE ROOM. You can buy the greatest subwoofers in the world and if you don't get them placed right and calibrated correctly they may be underwhelming. Buying the sub is the easy part, dialing it in correctly... that's where the work begins. But its all worth it in the end.

Luckily this is a great thread so we are all in this together.
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post #51698 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
That's pretty much what I guessed several pages back. 1-2db gain down low and potentially 5-6db up top with lower distortion and better long term power capabilities.
Pretty great boost in performance for $75 per driver.

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post #51699 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 03:44 PM
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That's pretty much what I guessed several pages back. 1-2db gain down low and potentially 5-6db up top with lower distortion and better long term power capabilities.
Yeah I remember reading that, I actually made up my own comparison sheets based off of your estimates to decide which sub to buy. Starting with the numbers on PSA’s website I added 2db @16-25hz 4db 31-50hz and 6db 60-100hz.
Close enough to get an idea I figured. I did forget that the 18 is 97db efficient vs 96 on the 15, but close enough.
Im honestly sure that I would be happy with the V1512, but for just $275 more gaining 3db top and bottom and 5db in the middle? No brainer to me. As many wise men here said, buy once, cry once.

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post #51700 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by GatoGoat View Post
Curious as to what that would do with dual drivers? If I changed all 6 18"s in the 3601's to the NEO drivers , you would guess 6-12db improvement down low and possibly 30db up top?? I know I am probably thinking of it too straightforward , there has got to be something I am missing in that equation....
The gains aren't additive like that.

If a single sub gives you 100db, 2 co-located subs would gain you an additional 5-6db. Each time you double the subwoofers, it adds another 5-6db.

So in your example, if you have 3 S3601s, you probably have somewhere between 7-9 db more than a single S3601 depending on how they are placed and integrated. Gaining more output from the single sub just increases your starting point and isn't additive. You would just be starting with 106db instead of 100db.

I hope that makes sense. Everything with works in doubles (double the power = 3db, double the subwoofers = ~6db)

Edit: I found a real world test with graphs: https://hometheaterreview.com/the-pr...le-subwoofers/
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post #51701 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
The gains are additive like that.

If a single sub gives you 100db, 2 co-located subs would gain you an additional 5-6db. Each time you double the subwoofers, it adds another 5-6db.

So in your example, if you have 3 S3601s, you probably have somewhere between 7-9 db more than a single S3601 depending on how they are placed and integrated. Gaining more output from the single sub just increases your starting point and isn't additive. You would just be starting with 106db instead of 100db.

I hope that makes sense. Everything with works in doubles (double the power = 3db, double the subwoofers = ~6db)
Thanks. I do remember the double the subs = 6db which is what made me think of my initial question about switching to the NEO drivers and if Bassheads guesses for performance are close , I would be getting close to 30db up top and 12db down low by changing out all 6? So would that mean that I would almost get 2 pairs of subs more worth of power down low?? Again , I assume I am not quite understanding something and its not as straight forward as I am thinking...If it is then it appears the NEOs would be a hell of an upgrade!
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post #51702 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Pw3669 View Post
Interesting...so you think it receiver was triggering some sort of safety mechanism when you unplugged the RCA cable, kind of like how a car will dial back timing if there is a knock?
Neither the AVR nor the sub has anything like that. Pretty much only going to work or not work unless there's something (permanently) wrong with one or the other. Electrical gremlins don't often fix themselves.

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post #51703 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GatoGoat View Post
Thanks. I do remember the double the subs = 6db which is what made me think of my initial question about switching to the NEO drivers and if Bassheads guesses for performance are close , I would be getting close to 30db up top and 12db down low by changing out all 6? So would that mean that I would almost get 2 pairs of subs more worth of power down low?? Again , I assume I am not quite understanding something and its not as straight forward as I am thinking...If it is then it appears the NEOs would be a hell of an upgrade!
I realized I said are instead of aren't in my original response.

Read what I said again. The only thing that will change is your starting point. In other words, you would be gaining 1-2 db down low and 5-6 db up top.

Using a base of 100db for the standard drivers and an increase of 5db for the new drivers to keep things simple:

Base Sub: 1 = 100db, 2 = 106db, 4 = 112db
Neo Sub: 1 = 105db, 2 = 111db, 4 = 117db

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post #51704 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GatoGoat View Post
Thanks. I do remember the double the subs = 6db which is what made me think of my initial question about switching to the NEO drivers and if Bassheads guesses for performance are close , I would be getting close to 30db up top and 12db down low by changing out all 6? So would that mean that I would almost get 2 pairs of subs more worth of power down low?? Again , I assume I am not quite understanding something and its not as straight forward as I am thinking...If it is then it appears the NEOs would be a hell of an upgrade!
@chucks0 is on the right track here. If it makes it easier, in this case don't think of them as 6 18 inch woofers. Think of it as one bass system. You current bass system if 90db efficient. Changing all the drivers in your bass system increases that efficiency to 97db (top end anyway) so your bass system will be 7db louder. Down low more like 2db louder.
Kinda sticks how the math works out sometimes, but thats the way it is. The fact is your subs are VERY capable, and your running hard up against the diminishing returns line. It may be worth changing for the sound signature difference and increased longevity/durability of the new drivers. But just for headroom, (unless your running into the limit now) its a hell of a nut.
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Update: I'm still trying to decide if I want to upgrade my dual S3010s to S3612s Neos or go a different route all together with my setup. I have not been happy with how in my small space (sealed w/ suspended wood floor 2000ft^3) the S3010s can sound "muddy" at high volume levels and and it can make them hard to listen to.

Well, I finally had time to do some more REW sweeps this evening and this time I focused on the waterfall graphs. What do you guys think? My room size dial is set all the way to small.
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post #51706 of 52034 Old 09-11-2019, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by GatoGoat View Post
Curious as to what that would do with dual drivers? If I changed all 6 18"s in the 3601's to the NEO drivers , you would guess 6-12db improvement down low and possibly 30db up top?? I know I am probably thinking of it too straightforward , there has got to be something I am missing in that equation....
Chuck is correct... the gains would be for each sub total as a system not per driver. So 1-2 down low, 5-6db up top per sub.
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post #51707 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 02:03 AM
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Update: I'm still trying to decide if I want to upgrade my dual S3010s to S3612s Neos or go a different route all together with my setup. I have not been happy with how in my small space (sealed w/ suspended wood floor 2000ft^3) the S3010s can sound "muddy" at high volume levels and and it can make them hard to listen to.

Well, I finally had time to do some more REW sweeps this evening and this time I focused on the waterfall graphs. What do you guys think? My room size dial is set all the way to small.
I would focus on your frequency response. You look to be 10 dB louder at 40 Hz compared to up in the mid bass. This, imo, would indeed make things sound muddy while lacking in mid bass. I would try to get your response pretty flat 40-200 Hz, with a rising response below 40 Hz. Those subs should sound quite crisp and articulate if set up correctly.
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post #51708 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 05:45 AM
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I would focus on your frequency response. You look to be 10 dB louder at 40 Hz compared to up in the mid bass. This, imo, would indeed make things sound muddy while lacking in mid bass. I would try to get your response pretty flat 40-200 Hz, with a rising response below 40 Hz. Those subs should sound quite crisp and articulate if set up correctly.
Agreed...one note Boomer response. Almost 15db peak at 40hz compared to the cross over region around 80hz. If the peak was lower(<30hz) it probably wouldn't be a big deal but a peak that high in the 40-50hz area is going to cause boominess.
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post #51709 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
I realized I said are instead of aren't in my original response.

Read what I said again. The only thing that will change is your starting point. In other words, you would be gaining 1-2 db down low and 5-6 db up top.

Using a base of 100db for the standard drivers and an increase of 5db for the new drivers to keep things simple:

Base Sub: 1 = 100db, 2 = 106db, 4 = 112db
Neo Sub: 1 = 105db, 2 = 111db, 4 = 117db
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Originally Posted by gt4viper View Post
@chucks0 is on the right track here. If it makes it easier, in this case don't think of them as 6 18 inch woofers. Think of it as one bass system. You current bass system if 90db efficient. Changing all the drivers in your bass system increases that efficiency to 97db (top end anyway) so your bass system will be 7db louder. Down low more like 2db louder.
Kinda sticks how the math works out sometimes, but thats the way it is. The fact is your subs are VERY capable, and your running hard up against the diminishing returns line. It may be worth changing for the sound signature difference and increased longevity/durability of the new drivers. But just for headroom, (unless your running into the limit now) its a hell of a nut.
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Chuck is correct... the gains would be for each sub total as a system not per driver. So 1-2 down low, 5-6db up top per sub.
Got it , thanks for the info. I tend to simplify things and continue the pattern. So when I see 1 Neo would be 2Db down low and 7db up top , I just think like "Damn imagine what 6X's of that would do!!!" ..... Although deep down I knew 12db and 30db sounded absurd , but had to ask...
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post #51710 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 07:42 AM
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I would focus on your frequency response. You look to be 10 dB louder at 40 Hz compared to up in the mid bass. This, imo, would indeed make things sound muddy while lacking in mid bass. I would try to get your response pretty flat 40-200 Hz, with a rising response below 40 Hz. Those subs should sound quite crisp and articulate if set up correctly.
I agree. Before getting into REW I was pretty happy. After running it I found I had a pretty similar response. After some tweaking I got the 40 Hz down and the 20 Hz up and it sounds so much better. Less boomy/one note and the deeper bass has much more of a presence.
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post #51711 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I would focus on your frequency response. You look to be 10 dB louder at 40 Hz compared to up in the mid bass. This, imo, would indeed make things sound muddy while lacking in mid bass. I would try to get your response pretty flat 40-200 Hz, with a rising response below 40 Hz. Those subs should sound quite crisp and articulate if set up correctly.
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Agreed...one note Boomer response. Almost 15db peak at 40hz compared to the cross over region around 80hz. If the peak was lower(<30hz) it probably wouldn't be a big deal but a peak that high in the 40-50hz area is going to cause boominess.
Could that peak at 40Hz be from the target EQ curve I am using in REW? I am currently just using the default curve. Are you guys using a flat line or something close to that? Audyssey has my LFE crossover set to 120Hz.
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post #51712 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 07:53 AM
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Could that peak at 40Hz be from the target EQ curve I am using in REW? I am currently just using the default curve. Are you guys using a flat line or something close to that? Audyssey has my LFE crossover set to 120Hz.
Assuming you have a miniDSP based on the REW target EQ curve thing, I would only use REW for finding and knocking down the largest peaks so Audyssey has more wiggle room. Then, Audyssey. Finally, house curve.

edit: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...read-1643.html you can see my process kinda :P If you want to just post your un-EQ'd (disable all filters in miniDSP and turn Audyssey off) REW measurements around (2-300 Hz, around 80-90 dB is fine, 5 dB vertical scale please) we can get you fixed up from there.
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post #51713 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 08:59 AM
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Agreed...one note Boomer response. Almost 15db peak at 40hz compared to the cross over region around 80hz. If the peak was lower(<30hz) it probably wouldn't be a big deal but a peak that high in the 40-50hz area is going to cause boominess.
Something in the way things are set up is making the sub give the impression its an inexpensive ported sub... the old one note wonder.
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #51714 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 09:02 AM
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Update: I'm still trying to decide if I want to upgrade my dual S3010s to S3612s Neos or go a different route all together with my setup. I have not been happy with how in my small space (sealed w/ suspended wood floor 2000ft^3) the S3010s can sound "muddy" at high volume levels and and it can make them hard to listen to.

Well, I finally had time to do some more REW sweeps this evening and this time I focused on the waterfall graphs. What do you guys think? My room size dial is set all the way to small.
What's your response graph look like? Can you post that?
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #51715 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 09:09 AM
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Here is the V1512 front and down firing pic.
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post #51716 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 09:37 AM
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Here is the V1512 front and down firing pic.
The V1512's are just DROOL........ ......Almost makes me want to get 3 of them lol...
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post #51717 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 09:45 AM
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The V1512's are just DROOL........ ......Almost makes me want to get 3 of them lol...
Making the decision between V1512DF and the new Value sub for our secondary room is going to be tough. Hard to justify the added cost for the V1512DF, but ...

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post #51718 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 10:15 AM
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The V1512's are just DROOL........ ......Almost makes me want to get 3 of them lol...
I just pre-ordered one :-) will add a 2nd one down the road.
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post #51719 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 10:17 AM
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Assuming you have a miniDSP based on the REW target EQ curve thing, I would only use REW for finding and knocking down the largest peaks so Audyssey has more wiggle room. Then, Audyssey. Finally, house curve.

edit: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...read-1643.html you can see my process kinda :P If you want to just post your un-EQ'd (disable all filters in miniDSP and turn Audyssey off) REW measurements around (2-300 Hz, around 80-90 dB is fine, 5 dB vertical scale please) we can get you fixed up from there.
Thanks, I will read that today and do some more sweeps tonight. My process right now is to use REW first using sweeps from both subs on at the same time, I then apply the filters REW spits out equally to both subs in the miniDSP on the input PEQ, and then I run Audyssey. There is obviously a broken link in the chain somewhere and I'm guessing it's how I am using REW.
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post #51720 of 52034 Old 09-12-2019, 10:23 AM
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What's your response graph look like? Can you post that?
Here is the response graph from that waterfall. Sorry I don't have it in 5db increments on the vertical axis but my laptop with REW on it is at home. I can post it again this evening in the proper format if this is not helpful. This is with both subs plus the center channel up to 400Hz
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