Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1759 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #52741 of 52883 Old 11-21-2019, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
Hey darthray, what subs are you currently using?
Dual SVS PB13-Ultra, soon to be replace by dual FV18 from Rythmik.
That said, I greatly respect many other sub brands. Since we all have restrictions, money and size wise as well different needs
But doesn't mean, I need to become bias between brands. Maybe a little between Port or Seal


Darth

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post #52742 of 52883 Old 11-21-2019, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Dual SVS PB13-Ultra, soon to be replace by dual FV18 from Rythmik.
That said, I greatly respect many other sub brands. Since we all have restrictions, money and size wise as well different needs
But doesn't mean, I need to become bias between brands. Maybe a little between Port or Seal


Darth
When I set out to buy new subs I started looking at the Monoprice Monolith and then PSA. After a while I forgot about the monolith and started looking at PSA vs Rythmik. Rythmik has a good rep for music and it digs a little deeper but ultimately I chose the PSA V1812's because they were getting brand new drivers and the pre order price offered more value to an already fantastic price vs performance sub. I don't think I could have gone wrong either way but I respect your choice for the Rythmik, it looks fantastic.
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post #52743 of 52883 Old 11-21-2019, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Dual SVS PB13-Ultra, soon to be replace by dual FV18 from Rythmik.
That said, I greatly respect many other sub brands. Since we all have restrictions, money and size wise as well different needs
But doesn't mean, I need to become bias between brands. Maybe a little between Port or Seal


Darth
Paper?
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post #52744 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
Also, it's possible that people who like 100hz crossovers are using speakers that drop off at 70hz like PSA's. By setting the crossover at 100hz you are allowing a 90/80/70 crossover to the sub. By setting it at 80hz you would get 70hz and then a drop off which would not sound as smooth. Speakers that can go down to 30hz can still achieve a smooth crossover of 50/40/30 without having a drop off. There are many audiophiles that use 60hz crossovers and people shouldn't be turned away from atleast trying it out to see what it sounds like to them. The video linked above shows that the majority of chest punch is in the 30 to 50hz range anyway which is below a 60hz crossover. If a speaker can deliver 60hz with the same distortion as a dedicated sub then you will not suffer any negative effects as long as the speakers can produce the range and your amplification is up to the task. Dedicated subs are better at producing bass no question about it but at what point they gain an advantage comes down to the speakers and the amp.

Hi,

I agree with you that the choice of what crossovers to use should be governed by rooms, systems, and personal preferences. You should definitely experiment to discover what you prefer.

Just for the record, though, Alan and I were both being sarcastic in our references to that video. The author actually got it completely wrong in the video. As noted in my post, there have been any number of reputable studies that have demonstrated that chest punch actually occurs in the frequency range from about 50Hz to 100Hz, for most people. One well-referenced study indicated that the strongest sensations were felt at an average frequency of about 63Hz.

The author of that video just took some scenes which are known for producing strong chest punch sensations, and measured the peak SPL's in those scenes. The part of his analysis which was missing is that not every frequency causes resonance in the air-filled chest cavity. Some of the lower frequencies he was measuring didn't really have anything to do with the chest punch sensation that people actually feel from those scenes. That's why blind studies have been performed to determine where chest punch actually occurs.

It takes the right sudden percussive sound, at the right SPL, to create that momentary resonance that we call chest punch. And, different people will feel chest punch either more or less than others, and at slightly different volumes and frequencies. But, it is still absolutely a mid-bass phenomenon, and not a low-bass one.

Regards,
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post #52745 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 10:39 AM
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I haven't seen any of these studies but I'll take your word for it. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it since it's irrelevant to the point I was making. I've seen you post that information multiple times and have no argument with it but I have to admit that the video that was posted does provide insight into how strong the mid bass actually is during those scenes. The low end bass peaks is in the 30 50hz range and the mid bass is not all that strong in those areas of Jhon Wick that have loads of chest punch. You certainly don't need a monstrous sub to push 80db at 60hz. I have felt chest slam from a snare drum snap so it probably is an electric pop in the midrange but it's also possible that those low end peaks add to the effect by shaking you during the snap. I've have not done any research on it obviously and am not claiming otherwise. All I know is that it can be felt strongly even with no subs attached to my setup at all which points to you being correct.

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post #52746 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
I haven't seen any of these studies but I'll take your word for it. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it since it's irrelevant to the point I was making. I've seen you post that information multiple times and have no argument with it but I have to admit that the video that was posted does provide insight into how strong the mid bass actually is during those scenes. The low end bass peaks is in the 30 50hz range and the mid bass is not all that strong in those areas of Jhon Wick that have loads of chest punch. You certainly don't need a monstrous sub to push 80db at 60hz. I have felt chest slam from a snare drum snap so it probably is an electric pop in the midrange but it's also possible that those low end peaks add to the effect by shaking you during the snap. I've have not done any research on it obviously and am not claiming otherwise. All I know is that it can be felt strongly even with no subs attached to my setup at all which points to you being correct.
Here's a decent breakdown of frequencies hitting the body at X db, and the feeling the humans felt, etc. I've skimmed through it seems to be some good info, may help you in your research. I tried to find the study Mike was talking about but wasn't able to.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-aco...ation-of-sound




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post #52747 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 11:19 AM
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Thank you, I'll read later tonight.
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post #52748 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Here's a decent breakdown of frequencies hitting the body at X db, and the feeling the humans felt, etc. I've skimmed through it seems to be some good info, may help you in your research. I tried to find the study Mike was talking about but wasn't able to.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-aco...ation-of-sound
Thank you for this link I just skimmed through it but found it interesting. Since we are on the subject of mid-bass slam, chest punch or whatever one wishes to call it, the one thing that makes it hard for many of us to experience it is the volume level required for people to start feeling it. I can easily achieve chest slam in my room but I just don't like listening at the levels it takes for it to hit me. And while the Crowsons do a great job of creating TR, they can't reproduce chest slam. So it's an elusive target.
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post #52749 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thank you for this link I just skimmed through it but found it interesting. Since we are on the subject of mid-bass slam, chest punch or whatever one wishes to call it, the one thing that makes it hard for many of us to experience it is the volume level required for people to start feeling it. I can easily achieve chest slam in my room but I just don't like listening at the levels it takes for it to hit me. And while the Crowsons do a great job of creating TR, they can't reproduce chest slam. So it's an elusive target.


Another option which a lot of people cannot accommodate (including me) is VNF subs firing into your back. MBMs would be another.


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post #52750 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BadJRT View Post
Thanks, I'm about to check out those links right now. But first, what do you mean by "that pro driver sound"? Pro drivers are defined as what, exactly?

What are the audible characteristics of a pro driver and how do they differ from typical?

Thanks again.
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These PA drivers have a very different sound signature than the older drivers. I had the older drivers before in my V3601's and now I have the PA drivers in my TV36 iPal. Describing sound is very hard because the words we use may mean something to us but not the same thing to the one you're describing to, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

The older drivers are great but their sound is thicker and less precise, perhaps more one dimensional. I noticed this was even more true of the 2400ULF's I tried as well. Both the V3601 and the 2400ULF can really fill a room with great bass but IMO it's not as precise as the bass the PA drivers produce.

The iPals in the TV36 create a sound that is very powerful and very articulate as well... I've described it as multi-dimensional in the past. I thought the older drivers were articulate and precise but when compared to the PA drivers you realize the difference. The B&C drivers bring the weight of impact combined with tons of mid-bass punch. Like Mike said, some guys may like the thicker sound of the other type of drivers. But when I heard the precise powerful sound of the PA iPals I was hooked in less than a minute.

The B&C PA drivers are more efficient which results in more output and headroom. They are also mid bass power houses. All this results in their being able to play low (ULF) with enough output so that you can feel/hear it, while still delivering the mid bass with authority. All of this is an over simplification but I hope that it helps.

Hop described the difference perfectly and I saw in another post you mentioned you were after mid-bass punch and you're in luck because these new drivers excel in the mid-bass region. If you end up ordering the S3612 neo or iPal please leave us a review as I know others are looking for feedback as well.
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post #52751 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by javan robinson View Post
Here's a decent breakdown of frequencies hitting the body at X db, and the feeling the humans felt, etc. I've skimmed through it seems to be some good info, may help you in your research. I tried to find the study Mike was talking about but wasn't able to.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-aco...ation-of-sound
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thank you for this link I just skimmed through it but found it interesting. Since we are on the subject of mid-bass slam, chest punch or whatever one wishes to call it, the one thing that makes it hard for many of us to experience it is the volume level required for people to start feeling it. I can easily achieve chest slam in my room but I just don't like listening at the levels it takes for it to hit me. And while the Crowsons do a great job of creating TR, they can't reproduce chest slam. So it's an elusive target.

Several years ago, VerticalScope took over AVS again, or changed formats, and a number of older AVS links were lost. Among them was a link to a more extensive study than the one that Audioholics did. I had first read about the importance of the 63Hz frequency, for most people, in an older AVS discussion which involved JJ Johnson, Todd Welti, and Earl Geddes. And, I believe that Dr Welti, cited and linked that study. Later, when I was writing the Guide, I tried to find the link again and couldn't.

I can tell you, though, that at least two submakers that I know of (SVS and Rythmik) offer pre-programmed PEQ (about a 3db boost I think) at 63Hz. I believe the SVS PEQ goes back to when Tom was still at SVS. The Audioholics article also mentions that frequency:

"One precise way to easily bump up the ‘feeling’ of your bass is to boost certain narrow bands in the bass region instead of the entire frequency range. As was noted in our testing, 50-63 Hz seemed to carry a very potent effect on the chest region, so giving that frequency range a boost may give your system an extra kick."

I seem to be pretty susceptible to chest punch, even at moderate volume levels, but apparently that varies among individuals. If I wanted to get more chest punch, and didn't want to increase my volume, or add an MBM in order to do it, I would experiment with adding about a 3db or 4db boost in the approximately 60-65Hz range. Anyone who already has a miniDSP for BEQ could easily do that.

It might take some experimentation to find just the right amount of boost, at just the right frequency, and even then chest punch is still dependent on percussive mid-bass sounds in the program. But, I'll bet that you could enhance your chest punch, Hop, if you wanted to play with that. Goodness knows, you have headroom to spare with your TV36 iPal's.

Regards,
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post #52752 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 04:03 PM
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I've always associated chest slam as the sound of power without the boom from low bass. Like a baseball bat hitting a homerun with a wooden bat. If you get a mic nice and close to it. It's got a crack that you can feel but no boom or low end thud. Perhaps everyone has a different idea what it is. I will say that the 63hz point that you mention would make me think twice about setting a crossover point so near it. It seems like you would want a seamless source of bass beyond that. Just another reason why 80hz is sounding better and better at this point. Thanks for your insight mthomas 47.
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post #52753 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 04:53 PM
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Chest slam takes SPL...you won't get it unless you listen at loud levels. You likely will never get it with a 60hz crossover. 80-100hz and 110db+ near field and you might start to feel some kick drums in the chest.
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post #52754 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 06:57 PM
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Paper?
Aluminum, due to my new cat that love anything foam including my sound panels. But do leave all my speakers/subs (using rubber surrounds) alone, even without grills. And also do not listen at extreme level, the advantage of the paper cone using a foam surround. Now back to PSA subs.


Darth
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post #52755 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 07:54 PM
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Well, I don't know whether it is chest slam or not, but I definitely feel my chair vibrate/pulsate and a thump in my chest with my TV36 ipal. I sit about 12 feet away from the sub and it is corner loaded (I only have one) and I'm on a concrete slab. I can feel it at a MV of -20 on my Yamaha RX-A3060, and sometimes even at lower volumes depending on the movie. The highest MV I have ever run is -17. I do, however, run the sub around 8 dB hot. I have PSA MTM210 LCR and run the cross over at 100 hz.

I had my nephew over the other day and played a few scenes from Olympus has Fallen. He has never heard a HT with a large sub before and his eyes lit up. He stated "oh my god, I could feel my chair vibrating and a thump on my chest"! Another film that really shines with music is Bohemian Rhapsody. The kick drum during the opening song at the Live Aid concert hits you right in the chest, and hard. The bass guitar can also be felt as well as heard.

These TV36 ipals are phenomenal, and at least for me, provide all the "chest slam" that I need as well as great ULF.

Edit - one other item to note. I have a very open floor plan. I only have three walls in my living room where my HT is located and it pretty much is open to the entire house. The fact that one TV36 ipal can provide such great TR with such an open floor plan, on concrete, and the sub a little over 12 ft away from my MLP just amazes me.

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post #52756 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 08:26 PM
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That mimics pretty close to what I said. -20 running +8db hot would be like running -12 with no boost. I also get a lot of TR and punch at MV -20 with my subs running 6db hot. Mine are nearfield which helps the little 15's put in work.
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post #52757 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Chest slam takes SPL...you won't get it unless you listen at loud levels. You likely will never get it with a 60hz crossover. 80-100hz and 110db+ near field and you might start to feel some kick drums in the chest.


So maybe I get some at reference


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post #52758 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 10:36 PM
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post #52759 of 52883 Old 11-22-2019, 11:27 PM
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Does anyone know the system Q of the S1512 and S1812 subs?

Thanks
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post #52760 of 52883 Old 11-23-2019, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadJRT View Post
Thanks a bunch for the input. I'll be anxious to see how other describe these driver's as well. Mid bass is probably what I'm most interested in. (I don't know a whole lot about frequencies, roll offs and octavs), but I'm reading more and more as I get closer to making a purchase. I listen to mostly rock, metal, jazz and blues. I'm sure when I get this new system going (7.2 is what I'm shooting for initially) I'll start watching more movies, but my main concern will be music. I'll be starting from scratch with a new setup and want it to pound like nothing I've ever heard. I just saw Tool on Monday night and I'd like my system to sound like Danny Carey is in my family room. 😁 haha Anyway, what you're describing is sounding like something I'm going to most likely give a shot. I'll be ordering LCR some kind of surrounds and two subs, receiver and amp. I know absolutely nothing about this room correction I see you guys talking about, but that's a subject for another time, once I get some equipment. Thanks again for taking the time.

Brian
I'm running a 7.2 setup right now.
The other day I broke out the SPL meter and re-cal'ed my speakers, turns out the surround back speakers had to be turned up alot.

Anyhow I popped in Roger Waters Blu-Ray ""The Wall" = WoW! Great disc.

It's like the PSA's are on steroids now, geez.

The PSA's are so immersive, I actually "ducked" when the helicopter came across the 210's & 110's, then giggled.

The 110's are so clean, both myself and the dog were turning (in the grave yard scene) around looking for the bird behind us with that look on our faces (What?!? There's a bird here in the basement?) The PSA's always make me smile

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post #52761 of 52883 Old 11-23-2019, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Hop described the difference perfectly and I saw in another post you mentioned you were after mid-bass punch and you're in luck because these new drivers excel in the mid-bass region. If you end up ordering the S3612 neo or iPal please leave us a review as I know others are looking for feedback as well.
I really wouldn't be able to say much, as I don't know all the correct terminology, not to mention I don't have much comparison experience as a reference. I had two 12" Axiom's back in 2010 that wouldn't hold a candle to these I'm sure. I now have a Rythmik E15HP that I think is awesome but it's only hooked up to a Zvox soundbar. Once I get this system going, it'll be the first higher end audio I've heard in a long time. I wouldn't be able to articulate what I'm hearing well enough for you guys to get anything out of it. I guess I could say I absolutely love it or I'm not so impressed

If someone on here with a good reputation and ability to put into words what they're hearing wants to visit my system once up and running, I'd love to demo it.

As I said, I'm narrowed down to two brands and still not sure exactly which way I'm going.
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post #52762 of 52883 Old 11-23-2019, 07:09 PM
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hey Guys, most of you know I'm subless at the moment, I sold my V3611s and want to run my identical LCR speakers full range. What kind of damage can I cause doing this if any, I'd like to watch a movie and listen to music, I've been tricking my system into thinking it has a sub and using a crossover. This is what my LCRs are capable of, if I'm right they're down 3dB at 45Hz............................Thanks..

Left and Right FR sweep.....



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post #52763 of 52883 Old 11-23-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
hey Guys, most of you know I'm subless at the moment, I sold my V3611s and want to run my identical LCR speakers full range. What kind of damage can I cause doing this if any, I'd like to watch a movie and listen to music, I've been tricking my system into thinking it has a sub and using a crossover. This is what my LCRs are capable of, if I'm right they're down 3dB at 45Hz............................Thanks..

Left and Right FR sweep.....

Jeffrey


Hi Jeffrey,

You won't do any damage to your speakers, as long as you are reasonably sensible about your content and volume levels. The front speakers will carry any LFE content, but they and the other speakers in your system will just roll-off naturally wherever they roll-off. The same thing happens with our subwoofers, except at lower frequencies and higher volume levels. They just roll-off gradually, wherever they do. The only way we are likely to damage them is by getting reckless with sine waves or something like that.

I'm glad that you are feeling well enough now to want to get back into your movies and music. I think that everyone was a little worried about you, and feeling bad for you when you couldn't enjoy your system. I hope that you do go for a pair of TV42 iPal's (or at least for the TV36's if you wimp out ).

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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post #52764 of 52883 Old 11-23-2019, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Jeffrey,

You won't do any damage to your speakers, as long as you are reasonably sensible about your content and volume levels. The front speakers will carry any LFE content, but they and the other speakers in your system will just roll-off naturally wherever they roll-off. The same thing happens with our subwoofers, except at lower frequencies and higher volume levels. They just roll-off gradually, wherever they do. The only way we are likely to damage them is by getting reckless with sine waves or something like that.

I'm glad that you are feeling well enough now to want to get back into your movies and music. I think that everyone was a little worried about you, and feeling bad for you when you couldn't enjoy your system. I hope that you do go for a pair of TV42 iPal's (or at least for the TV36's if you wimp out ).

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike, I kind of thought the same thing as you described but needed reassurance from a seasoned veteran as yourself my friend. Mike I was worried about myself and never imagined I would get to that place, I felt like a stranger in my own home and my wife was very concerned as well. I've come to accept who and what I am, getting older was my excuse for lack of enthusiasm and passion for this hobby I was so dedicated to. I heard a quote recently that really helped: The two most important days of your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why...........

I've been talking with Tom and the fire inside is heating up and just being involved again in these threads has helped so much, I'm posting in a lot of other forums as well and feeling like folks want to hear what I have to say, thanks to you Mike and all the friends I have here (you too Hop) the walls aren't closing in as much. I'd love to have dual TV42s or even the TV36s but I need some time to get back to that place again....Thanks again Mike, I'll be back...............REASONABLY SENSIBLE....
y sensible
Regards, Jeffrey
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post #52765 of 52883 Old 11-23-2019, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
hey Guys, most of you know I'm subless at the moment, I sold my V3611s and want to run my identical LCR speakers full range. What kind of damage can I cause doing this if any, I'd like to watch a movie and listen to music, I've been tricking my system into thinking it has a sub and using a crossover. This is what my LCRs are capable of, if I'm right they're down 3dB at 45Hz............................Thanks..
I take it you are using the LFE + Main or similar setting for movies?

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post #52766 of 52883 Old 11-24-2019, 09:50 AM
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I take it you are using the LFE + Main or similar setting for movies?
No I'm not, I don't see the advantage of doing that without subs, please enlighten me..........Thanks
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post #52767 of 52883 Old 11-24-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
No I'm not, I don't see the advantage of doing that without subs, please enlighten me..........Thanks
How are you getting the LFE track? To my knowledge that is the only way to pass LFE to the mains. Maybe there is some other way.

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post #52768 of 52883 Old 11-24-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
No I'm not, I don't see the advantage of doing that without subs, please enlighten me..........Thanks

Pretty sure that without a sub selected in the AVR everything gets passed to the mains. Just set them as large, you can still use a crossover for the surrounds/atmos and let her rip.


Way back I watched the Incredibles with just 5 NHT SuperZeros, no sub at around -15db. The speakers only do what they can do.

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post #52769 of 52883 Old 11-24-2019, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
How are you getting the LFE track? To my knowledge that is the only way to pass LFE to the mains. Maybe there is some other way.
If the Sub is set to OFF in the AVR then the mains get full signal.
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post #52770 of 52883 Old 11-24-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
How are you getting the LFE track? To my knowledge that is the only way to pass LFE to the mains. Maybe there is some other way.
Without subs and set to none the mains auto configure to large or full range and LFE is sent to the mains and they will handle whatever they are capable of and in my case they should start to roll off naturally around 45Hz which isn't too shabby and I'll be able to produce some decent bass (LFE) effects with the front LCR, nothing earth shaking but decent enough to listen to music and watch movies. It's akin to mixing cheap champagne with ripple and you get champiple..............courtesy of Fred G Sanford..............
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