Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1764 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #52891 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MentatYP View Post
I'm not seeing an S18 IPAL on their sealed subs page--only an S1812 with Neo driver:
https://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages/sealed-subwoofers

Am I just completely blind today? It's been known to happen to me before

Anybody know if an S36 IPAL is coming?
https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/s18-ipal

Just not updated. If you just click "subwoofers" you'll scroll to it.
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post #52892 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 01:00 PM
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Really need some help with sub placement info, please see the attached photos for reference. If you look at my room diagram you can see that because of the 4 foot opening to the kitchen and family room I am dealing with a huge area 6500^3+ and then throw in WAF that wants the subs out of sight, plus there really isn't room to place one up front. I had ordered a set of Rythmik FV18 paper cone subs and after thinking about the fact the only location I have for placement is directly behind the sofa I canceled the order and here's why. I realized that only having a nearfield placement would be good for TR especially given the cu ft involved as the subs would be 2 inches from the back of the sofa. But I was informed by several members that having both FV18's behind the couch laying on their side practically touching, so as to not be seen thru the window behind(again WAF), that I would not be getting the help of having duals by placing them in opposite corners or at least a distance from each other. In effect I was just doing one big sub behind the couch at a cost of $3348. So I decided to cancel the 2 subs and go with a dual cabinet setup. Was going to go with the Rythmik FV25hp because of the extension but started researching around and saw the new TV3612 with its lower extension and of course its great midbass, laid on its side behind the sofa was going to be real tight because I only have 26" of space to the wall (again WAF). So I came up with the idea to take the mounting feet from the bottom and mount them on the front corners and make the first TV3612DF sub. I've been talking with Tom and he said its doable and was going to check this weekend about using the existing holes for the grille and mounting them there. But I know the guy is swamped with other projects so here is my question, finally. Looking at the picture could I stand the sub up in the left rear corner facing forward,backward or even sideways(open for suggestions) and still get all the TR I would get versus placing it behind the sofa. I should mention we are on a suspended wood floor which should help, but don't really have any other placement areas other than behind the sofa or left rear corner which you can see is right next to the sofa, sub would actually be slightly touching the rear corner of the sofa. I just ordered the TV3612 about an hour ago and told Tom not to bother trying to see if the feet will work in the grille hole spots, I can always get some 3" thick foam for the corners which was Toms plan B or I will tap the holes myself, but I'm really interested in seeing what members here think about just placing it in that rear corner spot. Really appreciate input from the members here, thanks in advance.
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post #52893 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPannyMan View Post
Really need some help with sub placement info, please see the attached photos for reference. If you look at my room diagram you can see that because of the 4 foot opening to the kitchen and family room I am dealing with a huge area 6500^3+ and then throw in WAF that wants the subs out of sight, plus there really isn't room to place one up front. I had ordered a set of Rythmik FV18 paper cone subs and after thinking about the fact the only location I have for placement is directly behind the sofa I canceled the order and here's why. I realized that only having a nearfield placement would be good for TR especially given the cu ft involved as the subs would be 2 inches from the back of the sofa. But I was informed by several members that having both FV18's behind the couch laying on their side practically touching, so as to not be seen thru the window behind(again WAF), that I would not be getting the help of having duals by placing them in opposite corners or at least a distance from each other. In effect I was just doing one big sub behind the couch at a cost of $3348. So I decided to cancel the 2 subs and go with a dual cabinet setup. Was going to go with the Rythmik FV25hp because of the extension but started researching around and saw the new TV3612 with its lower extension and of course its great midbass, laid on its side behind the sofa was going to be real tight because I only have 26" of space to the wall (again WAF). So I came up with the idea to take the mounting feet from the bottom and mount them on the front corners and make the first TV3612DF sub. I've been talking with Tom and he said its doable and was going to check this weekend about using the existing holes for the grille and mounting them there. But I know the guy is swamped with other projects so here is my question, finally. Looking at the picture could I stand the sub up in the left rear corner facing forward,backward or even sideways(open for suggestions) and still get all the TR I would get versus placing it behind the sofa. I should mention we are on a suspended wood floor which should help, but don't really have any other placement areas other than behind the sofa or left rear corner which you can see is right next to the sofa, sub would actually be slightly touching the rear corner of the sofa. I just ordered the TV3612 about an hour ago and told Tom not to bother trying to see if the feet will work in the grille hole spots, I can always get some 3" thick foam for the corners which was Toms plan B or I will tap the holes myself, but I'm really interested in seeing what members here think about just placing it in that rear corner spot. Really appreciate input from the members here, thanks in advance.


Finally somebody that does his best to get that center where it should be!! So clean looking, love the wood
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post #52894 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPannyMan View Post
Really need some help with sub placement info, please see the attached photos for reference. If you look at my room diagram you can see that because of the 4 foot opening to the kitchen and family room I am dealing with a huge area 6500^3+ and then throw in WAF that wants the subs out of sight, plus there really isn't room to place one up front. I had ordered a set of Rythmik FV18 paper cone subs and after thinking about the fact the only location I have for placement is directly behind the sofa I canceled the order and here's why. I realized that only having a nearfield placement would be good for TR especially given the cu ft involved as the subs would be 2 inches from the back of the sofa. But I was informed by several members that having both FV18's behind the couch laying on their side practically touching, so as to not be seen thru the window behind(again WAF), that I would not be getting the help of having duals by placing them in opposite corners or at least a distance from each other. In effect I was just doing one big sub behind the couch at a cost of $3348. So I decided to cancel the 2 subs and go with a dual cabinet setup. Was going to go with the Rythmik FV25hp because of the extension but started researching around and saw the new TV3612 with its lower extension and of course its great midbass, laid on its side behind the sofa was going to be real tight because I only have 26" of space to the wall (again WAF). So I came up with the idea to take the mounting feet from the bottom and mount them on the front corners and make the first TV3612DF sub. I've been talking with Tom and he said its doable and was going to check this weekend about using the existing holes for the grille and mounting them there. But I know the guy is swamped with other projects so here is my question, finally. Looking at the picture could I stand the sub up in the left rear corner facing forward,backward or even sideways(open for suggestions) and still get all the TR I would get versus placing it behind the sofa. I should mention we are on a suspended wood floor which should help, but don't really have any other placement areas other than behind the sofa or left rear corner which you can see is right next to the sofa, sub would actually be slightly touching the rear corner of the sofa. I just ordered the TV3612 about an hour ago and told Tom not to bother trying to see if the feet will work in the grille hole spots, I can always get some 3" thick foam for the corners which was Toms plan B or I will tap the holes myself, but I'm really interested in seeing what members here think about just placing it in that rear corner spot. Really appreciate input from the members here, thanks in advance.
The thing about bass is it's very difficult for anyone to know from a picture or a diagram where the best location for a sub will be in a room because every room acts differently and there are so many variables that affect bass it's impossible to accurately predict. Having said that, unless a person has a dedicated theater, compromises will have to be made because furniture, room design and WAF all affect where we can realistically put a sub... so we do the best we can. The name of this game is compromise... and then making the compromises we make work.

Personally I don't see any reason why the rear left corner won't work, you'll get a boost from corner loading the sub so that should provide some extra bass and you can play with facing it different directions to see if you notice a difference. I think you will get excellent TR no matter which way you face the drivers but facing them right at the MLP should give a bit more. Add in the suspended floor and you should really get some serious TR. Congratulations on your new sub.
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post #52895 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 01:55 PM
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Should I go for V1812 instead?

I have just placed an order for V1512 then realized the V1812 has almost the same size box which makes me wonder if I should have gone with the bigger brother instead for $300 more?


Which one do you think is more worth buying for?



Please share your thoughts. TIA
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post #52896 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGWGM View Post
I have just placed an order for V1512 then realized the V1812 has almost the same size box which makes me wonder if I should have gone with the bigger brother instead for $300 more?


Which one do you think is more worth buying for?



Please share your thoughts. TIA
No one (at least on this forum) ever regrets getting the biggest they can, most do however regret not getting the biggest sub they could have.

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post #52897 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGWGM View Post
I have just placed an order for V1512 then realized the V1812 has almost the same size box which makes me wonder if I should have gone with the bigger brother instead for $300 more?


Which one do you think is more worth buying for?



Please share your thoughts. TIA
If you can afford the 18, go for the 18.

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post #52898 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by OldPannyMan View Post
Really need some help with sub placement info, please see the attached photos for reference. If you look at my room diagram you can see that because of the 4 foot opening to the kitchen and family room I am dealing with a huge area 6500^3+ and then throw in WAF that wants the subs out of sight, plus there really isn't room to place one up front. I had ordered a set of Rythmik FV18 paper cone subs and after thinking about the fact the only location I have for placement is directly behind the sofa I canceled the order and here's why. I realized that only having a nearfield placement would be good for TR especially given the cu ft involved as the subs would be 2 inches from the back of the sofa. But I was informed by several members that having both FV18's behind the couch laying on their side practically touching, so as to not be seen thru the window behind(again WAF), that I would not be getting the help of having duals by placing them in opposite corners or at least a distance from each other. In effect I was just doing one big sub behind the couch at a cost of $3348. So I decided to cancel the 2 subs and go with a dual cabinet setup. Was going to go with the Rythmik FV25hp because of the extension but started researching around and saw the new TV3612 with its lower extension and of course its great midbass, laid on its side behind the sofa was going to be real tight because I only have 26" of space to the wall (again WAF). So I came up with the idea to take the mounting feet from the bottom and mount them on the front corners and make the first TV3612DF sub. I've been talking with Tom and he said its doable and was going to check this weekend about using the existing holes for the grille and mounting them there. But I know the guy is swamped with other projects so here is my question, finally. Looking at the picture could I stand the sub up in the left rear corner facing forward,backward or even sideways(open for suggestions) and still get all the TR I would get versus placing it behind the sofa. I should mention we are on a suspended wood floor which should help, but don't really have any other placement areas other than behind the sofa or left rear corner which you can see is right next to the sofa, sub would actually be slightly touching the rear corner of the sofa. I just ordered the TV3612 about an hour ago and told Tom not to bother trying to see if the feet will work in the grille hole spots, I can always get some 3" thick foam for the corners which was Toms plan B or I will tap the holes myself, but I'm really interested in seeing what members here think about just placing it in that rear corner spot. Really appreciate input from the members here, thanks in advance.
The rear corner might work , but for some reason it seems like it might be too localized since it will be so close to the couch...Behind the couch with the drivers facing the couch might provide the best overall blend in sound and probably provide some good wallops to your backs in the couch! But you may have to do some experimentation , once you get it in there to find the right spots...The TV36 should fill the viewing area nicely, since it seems like you really only have to worry about filling half of the area you have drawn..There will be some bass getting thru that 4 1/2' opening but I dont think it will be too much of an issue , the TV36 can probably fill 6Kcuft pretty easily anyway!
BTW: Are you a surveyor by any chance? Your notes look very surveyor-ish lol...
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post #52899 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGWGM View Post
I have just placed an order for V1512 then realized the V1812 has almost the same size box which makes me wonder if I should have gone with the bigger brother instead for $300 more?


Which one do you think is more worth buying for?



Please share your thoughts. TIA
I would definitely get the larger sub. Personally I have found that a 18" driver delivers a bass that's a little more bone crushing than a 15" driver even when played at the same SPL. Plus, you always want to get the biggest sub you can because no one has ever regretted having more bass than they think they need but everyone regrets getting less bass than they find they actually want.
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post #52900 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 03:31 PM
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Is there an S36 IPAL as well?



I have 2 S3600 Ipal on order. They just aren't on the site yet.
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post #52901 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGWGM View Post
I have just placed an order for V1512 then realized the V1812 has almost the same size box which makes me wonder if I should have gone with the bigger brother instead for $300 more?


Which one do you think is more worth buying for?



Please share your thoughts. TIA

I agree with all of the posters above telling you to go for the V1812. If you don't, you will always be left wondering what if. You may end up upgrading to it down the road anyway and will have wasted more than the $300 more it costs now.
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post #52902 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 04:45 PM
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I’ll be upgrading my subs in February. Was planning on duals, V1512’s, possibly V1812’s. Now I’m looking at a single V36 Ipal, or TV36 Ipal Any thoughts on a single Ipal vs dual neos? If I go single Ipal, I may not get a 2nd. Have other priorities. Thanks for any thoughts fellas.

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post #52903 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I would definitely get the larger sub. Personally I have found that a 18" driver delivers a bass that's a little more bone crushing than a 15" driver even when played at the same SPL. Plus, you always want to get the biggest sub you can because no one has ever regretted having more bass than they think they need but everyone regrets getting less bass than they find they actually want.
Thanks for sharing.

I have another question though. I'm concerned with what this guy said about room size vs speaker size. Is the 18 too much for my room size?

Room size : 9.5' x 13' x 7.75'


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post #52904 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 06:03 PM
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Do I have the first two S3012s out in the wild!?

Also a comparison shot of the S3010 vs S3012. Hopefully I'll have time to put them through their paces this weekend.

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post #52905 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 06:24 PM
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I’ll be upgrading my subs in February. Was planning on duals, V1512’s, possibly V1812’s. Now I’m looking at a single V36 Ipal, or TV36 Ipal Any thoughts on a single Ipal vs dual neos? If I go single Ipal, I may not get a 2nd. Have other priorities. Thanks for any thoughts fellas.
I would get a single TV36 iPal over dual V1512/1812's. Easily.

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post #52906 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 06:38 PM
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I would get a single TV36 iPal over dual V1512/1812's. Easily.
Ok. Thanks sk373.

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post #52907 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 07:19 PM
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Do I have the first two S3012s out in the wild!?
I think you do... you have the first two released into the wild. That's a sweet bonus. I've got the first two TV36 iPals, kind of fun having the first.
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post #52908 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by osu fan View Post
I’ll be upgrading my subs in February. Was planning on duals, V1512’s, possibly V1812’s. Now I’m looking at a single V36 Ipal, or TV36 Ipal Any thoughts on a single Ipal vs dual neos? If I go single Ipal, I may not get a 2nd. Have other priorities. Thanks for any thoughts fellas.
If the choice is between two V1512s or two V1812's or a single V36 iPal or a single TV36 iPal? I would get the single TV36 iPal. But if money is a concern I wouldn't hesitate to get a single TV3612 (it's the best price to performance value for sure). Bottom line is if you can fit a low tune TV36 in your room then I recommend getting one. Usually I'm a big believer in dual subs but these LT subs are so awesome I can't help but recommend getting one.

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post #52909 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGWGM View Post
Thanks for sharing.

I have another question though. I'm concerned with what this guy said about room size vs speaker size. Is the 18 too much for my room size?

Room size : 9.5' x 13' x 7.75'
Too much? No... not in my opinion. You can always turn the sub down if it has more output than you like. But remember, you asked your question to a bunch of serious bassheads so you have to keep that in mind, we rarely recommend the smaller sub. Most of us are addicted to our bass and we all probably need an intervention.

In all honesty the V1512 would be fine for a room that size. But remember, bass is addicting and once you experience the powerful high quality bass you will get from your PSA sub you may find you want more of it and soon you find you keep turning the sub up to get more. That's when headroom becomes important. And remember, you always want to have as much headroom as you can get so your sub doesn't have to work too hard and your bass will always be effortless.
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post #52910 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 09:18 PM
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^^^^


I agree with Hop. You can always turn a larger sub down, but you may not get the sound you are looking for in a smaller sub.

Jim Wilson said it best in your other post. That is, "Buy once, cry once. If you have buyers remorse already that's not a good sign. Get the best you can and don't look back. You will never regret having too much, but you will always regret having not enough".
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post #52911 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 09:38 PM
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Talking

Go bigger. You can always turn it down. you cant turn it up if you're already at 100%. And as (kinda) mentioned, the 18 will move more air with less work if that makes sense.







EDIT: Cause I cant spel...




Quote:
Originally Posted by LGWGM View Post
I have just placed an order for V1512 then realized the V1812 has almost the same size box which makes me wonder if I should have gone with the bigger brother instead for $300 more?


Which one do you think is more worth buying for?



Please share your thoughts. TIA
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post #52912 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGWGM View Post
I have just placed an order for V1512 then realized the V1812 has almost the same size box which makes me wonder if I should have gone with the bigger brother instead for $300 more?


Which one do you think is more worth buying for?



Please share your thoughts. TIA
I owned a V1510 for about 6 months ( great sub) I have a small living room. 18X15X 10 foot ceilings. After running REW ,If I sit in the MLP, I get great FR. If you sit on the far left or far right side of my couch you don't get the best FR. So I ordered a V1512 ( on pre-order) and I'll be doing some REW sweeps to see how different the B&C driver is. After a couple days with the V1512 I can already notice the difference in the sensitivity...it's a huge difference & the sound signature has more depth. In a couple months I'll get a second V1512...IMHO Two small subs is better than one large sub.
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post #52913 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhelliott2 View Post
I owned a V1510 for about 6 months ( great sub) I have a small living room. 18X15X 10 foot ceilings. After running REW ,If I sit in the MLP, I get great FR. If you sit on the far left or far right side of my couch you don't get the best FR. So I ordered a V1512 ( on pre-order) and I'll be doing some REW sweeps to see how different the B&C driver is. After a couple days with the V1512 I can already notice the difference in the sensitivity...it's a huge difference & the sound signature has more depth. In a couple months I'll get a second V1512...IMHO Two small subs is better than one large sub.
Depends on the situation and the subs. I would take a single TV36 Neo/iPal or JTR 4000ULF over dual V1512’s nearly every time. The only reason I don’t have a TV36 Neo/iPal is because I literally do not have the space for one. I am debating whether to swap my S1801’s for V1812’s, or just wait for the Neo upgrade kits for my S1801’s. V1812’s are at the limit in terms of cabinet size that will work in my space.
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post #52914 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rhelliott2 View Post
I owned a V1510 for about 6 months ( great sub) I have a small living room. 18X15X 10 foot ceilings. After running REW ,If I sit in the MLP, I get great FR. If you sit on the far left or far right side of my couch you don't get the best FR. So I ordered a V1512 ( on pre-order) and I'll be doing some REW sweeps to see how different the B&C driver is. After a couple days with the V1512 I can already notice the difference in the sensitivity...it's a huge difference & the sound signature has more depth. In a couple months I'll get a second V1512...IMHO Two small subs is better than one large sub.
An even frequency response is the only good frequency response. If you aren't hearing all of the bass spectrum as intended, reposition and/or add more subs

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post #52915 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
Depends on the situation and the subs. I would take a single TV36 Neo/iPal or JTR 4000ULF over dual V1512’s nearly every time. The only reason I don’t have a TV36 Neo/iPal is because I literally do not have the space for one. I am debating whether to swap my S1801’s for V1812’s, or just wait for the Neo upgrade kits for my S1801’s. V1812’s are at the limit in terms of cabinet size that will work in my space.
I agree %100
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post #52916 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
An even frequency response is the only good frequency response. If you aren't hearing all of the bass spectrum as intended, reposition and/or add more subs
Yup I'll be adding another sub soon.

Last edited by rhelliott2; 12-06-2019 at 08:01 AM.
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post #52917 of 54062 Old 12-05-2019, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by osu fan View Post
I’ll be upgrading my subs in February. Was planning on duals, V1512’s, possibly V1812’s. Now I’m looking at a single V36 Ipal, or TV36 Ipal Any thoughts on a single Ipal vs dual neos? If I go single Ipal, I may not get a 2nd. Have other priorities. Thanks for any thoughts fellas.

I have a single TV36 ipal in a very large, open living space and on concrete to boot. It's the best sub I've ever owned and I'm completely content with it. The TV36 series provides great mid bass while also providing ULF bass. The V1512's and 18's won't give you the ULF bass, and it's something that is addicting.

Bottom line, I am very content with just the one sub, and do not plan on adding another. If you can afford a TV36 ipal (or TV3612) and have the space for it I would highly recommend this route over dual V1512's or 18's.
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post #52918 of 54062 Old 12-06-2019, 12:29 AM
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With exception to smaller, closed rooms. There, go with duals to tackle the room issues. In a large, open space you don't have to deal with as many room modes and might be fine with one large sub.
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post #52919 of 54062 Old 12-06-2019, 01:02 AM
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Welcome to AVS and to PSA. I can't help with your questions but I can tell you I think you will be more than happy with you PSA speakers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixon40 View Post
So ya, 1st post... I was a member way back but didnt post much. For the past year, I've been lurking in the shadows of this thread to the extent that you may all want to file restraining orders.. Anyway I just wanted to say that between a couple reviews, Tom's rep, and all the enthusiasm in this thread. I pulled the trigger on a full PSA 7.2 setup around a couple months back. It should be arriving very soon. I will be upgrading from Ascend 340/170's and a PB Ultra. Which I've enjoyed for the most part since something like 05... So gotta couple questions that probably belong in another forum. But you guys sound knowledgable so I'd rather try to get em answered here. Okay so I ordered 3 mtm 210 towers for the front stage. Which means I have committed myself to tracking down the right (most likely 2:35) AT screen. Any recommendation their would be appreciated though that is not my main question. I have a very
steep sloping ceiling so attaching the screen to the ceiling itself probably won't work. Now I dont know what its called,but I've seen where people use the hinges (or whatever) and they have the flip up,fixed screen. So I'm thinking if I run a beam near to the ceiling, I'm hoping I could then just mount the screen on that, with that (hinge flip thing?) Really hoping at least a couple of you are still following me. So I'm mainly wondering if (A) Anyone has a reccomended attachment like the one I tried to explain? And (B) If this upper beam was the only thing the screen was attached too, would the screen be visibly shaking and vibrating from the bass? Im trying to avoid building a wall, plus I would like to be able to have a tv behind the screen. So this has probably been a bit long winded for a 1st time poster, so I apologize on that front. For now, my only other question I'll keep short.
Is there a going consensus on how high your ceiling/atmos speakers should be? I thought I'd heard 8" but I've also heard the higher the better. I plan to run a couple beams across the ceiling with the speakers recessed within. So i could get them at least 12 maybe 14" up. Any thoughts would be vastly appreciated. I'm pretty busy lately, so it may take me some time to get back to any questions. Other than that, the ordering process went just as good as you've all claimed. And I am very much looking forward to checking this out.. ya know, once I get done thoroughly throwing my back out...

Spoiler!
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post #52920 of 54062 Old 12-06-2019, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ol View Post
I have a single TV36 ipal in a very large, open living space and on concrete to boot. It's the best sub I've ever owned and I'm completely content with it. The TV36 series provides great mid bass while also providing ULF bass. The V1512's and 18's won't give you the ULF bass, and it's something that is addicting.

Bottom line, I am very content with just the one sub, and do not plan on adding another. If you can afford a TV36 ipal (or TV3612) and have the space for it I would highly recommend this route over dual V1512's or 18's.
I wouldn't say that...they both have extension down into the 14-16hz range which is pretty deep(well into what is considered the ULF range). The TV36 extends another 5hz deeper...so yes it covers more of the ULF range.

That being said, I would opt for a smoother frequency response that 2+ subs can provide over 5hz difference in extension all day. I do think the deeper tuned stuff is great and why a smaller low tune option would be nice for those that can not place a TV36 size sub in their room.
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