Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1766 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #52951 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 07:57 PM
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Hey guys. A bit back I sold my v3611 and got a couple JTR subs. I’ve regretted it every day. So, I want to rectify that mistake. I notice now there are a ton of dual 18’s. I’d like one but don’t quite understand the difference in woofers (ipal). I can fit any of the dual 18’s and really wish I could fit the TV42. What should I go with? I’d like to stick to a single sub. I run a 5.2.4 setup now with two 2400ULF’s.
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post #52952 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by gutcheck2001 View Post
Hey guys. A bit back I sold my v3611 and got a couple JTR subs. I’ve regretted it every day. So, I want to rectify that mistake. I notice now there are a ton of dual 18’s. I’d like one but don’t quite understand the difference in woofers (ipal). I can fit any of the dual 18’s and really wish I could fit the TV42. What should I go with? I’d like to stick to a single sub. I run a 5.2.4 setup now with two 2400ULF’s.
TV36NEO would be my choice. What is lacking with the 2400ULF's?
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post #52953 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I also think the S3012 should be looked at very hard for anyone looking for sealed subs. The dual 15's should match or exceed a single 18, with a smaller, narrower, and totally inert cab. I would gladly replace my sealed 18's with a pair of dual opposed 15's due to the smaller form factor, if I were willing to spend the money to do so.
A minor point, the S3012 is narrower than a S1812, but the cab is bigger than the S1812 overall. The S3012 is 24x18x22.5 while the S1812 is 22x20x20.5.

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Vizio M75-E1; Oppo 203 universal UHD player; Denon 4300H AVR, Dual PSA S1801's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; one pair NHT mini Atmos speakers; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, GeForce 980Ti, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case); Roku Premiere+; Amazon 4K Fire TV
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post #52954 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 09:55 PM
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I think the S1812 is a great sealed sub. However, if you end up going with a single sealed sub, I'd go with the S3012 without the slightest hesitation. Here's why, although this doesn't necessarily tell the whole story.

Single 18....254in^2 surface area with 16.5mm total xmax
Dual 15's, 350in^2 surface area with 33mm total xmax(16.5 x 2)

The S3012 also has double the power of the S1812 and should have higher sensitivity as well. The cab is narrower with the smaller drivers, and 100% inert from the dual opposed design in case you want to put things on top of the subs. A single driver, 18" sealed sub when pushed will dance items off of the top.

However, in your large space, a ported sub will definitely provide a lot more feel for movies, which can always be toned down as much as you want.

With the new drivers, I think all of PSA's subs are going to offer superb sound quality on music.

Were it me, being new to subs and not knowing for sure which would be perfect, I'd order a S3012 and a V1512, demo them both, and eat shipping on whichever one you send back. No second guessing.
Thanks everyone, this has been very helpful for me. I really think that the S3012 seems like a really good solution for us. We are going to use the sub as an end table for the couch, so not vibrating like crazy is an extra perk for us. Can't have flat beer right? Got to be honest, it is about double what I wanted to spend on a sub but I came up with the original budget in ignorance of what I really want and how much that costs. I am at the point in my life where I would rather spend the money now and get one good thing then save some money and work around shortcomings.

One aspect of the S3012 that I think would be good for my room is the front and rear firing subs, however, I wanted to check my assumptions with everyone else. The sub will be sandwiched between a wall and the couch with roughly half the room in front and half the room behind. With a sub facing forward and backwards from the couch, this seems like it would be somewhat balanced and a good thing. I know that against the wall is not ideal but it is the only place with WAF that I can fit a sub this size and it seems like the most balanced thing would be to have a sub facing forwards and backwards from the middle of the room. However, I started to wonder if that location was really just putting us as far from the sound as possible and that the sound waves might cancel themselves out around the midpoint after bouncing off walls which is where we would be sitting. I know that to break in speakers, sometimes two drivers are placed against each other and played the same signal. If the speakers are well matched, the sound of one driver cancels out the other and there is very little sound from what I am told. I doubt the sub will be exactly in the middle and the sound will be bouncing off of different surfaces, so I know it won't be a direct match when it gets to the couch but I don't know if that would still result some issues.

What do you all think. Would a sub facing forward and backwards directly next to the listing area be good or bad?

Thanks again.
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post #52955 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by gutcheck2001 View Post
Hey guys. A bit back I sold my v3611 and got a couple JTR subs. I’ve regretted it every day. So, I want to rectify that mistake. I notice now there are a ton of dual 18’s. I’d like one but don’t quite understand the difference in woofers (ipal). I can fit any of the dual 18’s and really wish I could fit the TV42. What should I go with? I’d like to stick to a single sub. I run a 5.2.4 setup now with two 2400ULF’s.
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TV36NEO would be my choice. What is lacking with the 2400ULF's?
I agree with Basshead... If cost matters or you don't push the sub to the limit then I would recommend the TV3612. If you want to go all out and feel like you really drive a sub to it's upper limits then I would do the TV36 iPal. The iPal and the Neo (TV3612) are very similar but the iPal gives you that last 10 to 20% when pushed. I had dual 2400ULF's for a short time but things didn't go well (amp issues)...in the end this worked out for the best because I like the TV36 far more.

I've also had dual V3600's and then V3601's in the past (which I really enjoyed) but the TV36 are on a completely different level. I'm running a 5.2.4 setup right now with dual TV36 iPals and couldn't be happier.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

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post #52956 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ABuilder View Post
Thanks everyone, this has been very helpful for me. I really think that the S3012 seems like a really good solution for us. We are going to use the sub as an end table for the couch, so not vibrating like crazy is an extra perk for us. Can't have flat beer right? Got to be honest, it is about double what I wanted to spend on a sub but I came up with the original budget in ignorance of what I really want and how much that costs. I am at the point in my life where I would rather spend the money now and get one good thing then save some money and work around shortcomings.

One aspect of the S3012 that I think would be good for my room is the front and rear firing subs, however, I wanted to check my assumptions with everyone else. The sub will be sandwiched between a wall and the couch with roughly half the room in front and half the room behind. With a sub facing forward and backwards from the couch, this seems like it would be somewhat balanced and a good thing. I know that against the wall is not ideal but it is the only place with WAF that I can fit a sub this size and it seems like the most balanced thing would be to have a sub facing forwards and backwards from the middle of the room. However, I started to wonder if that location was really just putting us as far from the sound as possible and that the sound waves might cancel themselves out around the midpoint after bouncing off walls which is where we would be sitting. I know that to break in speakers, sometimes two drivers are placed against each other and played the same signal. If the speakers are well matched, the sound of one driver cancels out the other and there is very little sound from what I am told. I doubt the sub will be exactly in the middle and the sound will be bouncing off of different surfaces, so I know it won't be a direct match when it gets to the couch but I don't know if that would still result some issues.

What do you all think. Would a sub facing forward and backwards directly next to the listing area be good or bad?

Thanks again.
The secret gem in the PSA arsenal through the years has been the S30XX subwoofer. I've never seen a bad thing written about it or anyone who owned it and didn't like it. So this is a great choice, especially considering now they have the B&C Neo drivers in them. And no, there is no reason why a sub facing forward and backward next to the listening position would be bad. The only thing you might run into with it close to the LP is localization issues but every room is different so all you can do is try and see what you get. But that would be true for any sub (whether it be the S3012, S1812 etc) positioned near the LP. Bottom line is you really never know what works best for sub placement until you get the sub in the room and experiment with positioning.
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Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #52957 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
TV36NEO would be my choice. What is lacking with the 2400ULF's?

I second the TV36 recommendation.

I too switched from a JTR2400 (not ULF) to a TV36 ipal. My reasons were a better sound signature (more immersive bass) and the PSA provided more hard hitting midbass. Don't get me wrong, the JTR was an outstanding sub. But its forte is ULF bass, which it does quite well. Now I have the best of both worlds, good ULF and great mid bass. Curious as well if the OP had a similar experience with his JTR's.
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post #52958 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 10:31 PM
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Exclamation First S3012 in the wild quick first impression

I finally had a quick hour or so to do some testing tonight and I thought I would share my thoughts.

Testing Method: I tested a single S3012 stacked on top of a S3010 (due space limitations) and switched the LFE signal back and forth using my miniDSP. I also switched between a single FV18 paper cone that I have just for the fun of it. The intent of this was to get my ears first impression on this bad boy and try to see if I would notice any difference in the sound between the two different models. I also did a quick level match before testing, turned off all DSP, and made sure all the amp settings were the same, except the gain due to level matching. I will be measuring with REW and my UMIK-1 in the coming week if possible.

Music Tested: I tested some bass heavy music tracks that I am familiar with: Tool Inoculum and Aenima albums, Twenty One Pilots - Vessel album, and White Stripes - Icky Thump, Kesha - Die Young (you can thank my daughter for this one)

Movies Tested: John Wick 3 - Ending Shotgun Scene; Transformers: Dark of the Moon - Shockwave building collapse scene

Initial impressions:

The good: My first impression of the S3012 was that this thing is a S3010 turned up to 11! I also mean this in a literal sense because I had been running the S3010 gain at 1 o'clock and I had to turn the S3012 back to 12 o'clock in order to level match them.

Everything about this sub so far seems to push what the S3010 was to the next level. The biggest plus out of this being a substantial increase in accuracy of the bass. So far it seems much tighter than the S3010, which I honestly found to be a bit muddy. The bass also does not seem to hang around in the room as long. I am definitely not ready to say that it is as accurate as my Rythmik subs are but it may honestly be pretty damn close.

There is also a noticeable increase in both mid-bass and ULF here vs the S3010. This sucker feels more violent in the room with me than the S3010 and the slam I felt in my chest when John Wick was destroying NPCs with his shot gun was extremely satisfying. In my sealed 2000ft^3 HT the ULF this thing puts out definitely outdoes the FV18 and the mid-bass seems to be a bit stronger too.

The bad: I will preface this by saying I have not talked to Tom about this yet and there may be an easy/simple solution for this issue. I will be contacting him on Monday to get his thoughts on this issue.

These subs have a LOUD audible hum when the amp is on and the AVR is muted. This is my 3rd model of sub from PSA and I have never had this issue on the first two. I've usually set the gain between 12PM-3PM on my S3010s and I have never heard a single peep of sound from them when the AVR is muted. At 12 o'clock gain both of my S3012s hum like I just plugged a guitar into a studio amp that is cranked up to 10. It is badly distracting and if this is what the final product is supposed to be like I think it cheapens these subs to the point where I might consider returning them. I have never had a single ground loop problem in my HT and the S3012 was plugged into the AVR and outlet the same exact way my S3010 always has been. I also tried several other cables, outlets, and outputs from the AVR just to be sure. The humming would not go away no matter what I tried.

I hope this helps some of you out who were waiting for some first impressions on the new Neo subs. I will make sure to update everyone after I am able to speak with Tom about the humming!
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post #52959 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 10:49 PM
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Do they still hum with no signal cable connected at all?
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post #52960 of 54075 Old 12-06-2019, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zambine View Post
I finally had a quick hour or so to do some testing tonight and I thought I would share my thoughts.

Testing Method: I tested a single S3012 stacked on top of a S3010 (due space limitations) and switched the LFE signal back and forth using my miniDSP. I also switched between a single FV18 paper cone that I have just for the fun of it. The intent of this was to get my ears first impression on this bad boy and try to see if I would notice any difference in the sound between the two different models. I also did a quick level match before testing, turned off all DSP, and made sure all the amp settings were the same, except the gain due to level matching. I will be measuring with REW and my UMIK-1 in the coming week if possible.

Music Tested: I tested some bass heavy music tracks that I am familiar with: Tool Inoculum and Aenima albums, Twenty One Pilots - Vessel album, and White Stripes - Icky Thump, Kesha - Die Young (you can thank my daughter for this one)

Movies Tested: John Wick 3 - Ending Shotgun Scene; Transformers: Dark of the Moon - Shockwave building collapse scene

Initial impressions:

The good: My first impression of the S3012 was that this thing is a S3010 turned up to 11! I also mean this in a literal sense because I had been running the S3010 gain at 1 o'clock and I had to turn the S3012 back to 12 o'clock in order to level match them.

Everything about this sub so far seems to push what the S3010 was to the next level. The biggest plus out of this being a substantial increase in accuracy of the bass. So far it seems much tighter than the S3010, which I honestly found to be a bit muddy. The bass also does not seem to hang around in the room as long. I am definitely not ready to say that it is as accurate as my Rythmik subs are but it may honestly be pretty damn close.

There is also a noticeable increase in both mid-bass and ULF here vs the S3010. This sucker feels more violent in the room with me than the S3010 and the slam I felt in my chest when John Wick was destroying NPCs with his shot gun was extremely satisfying. In my sealed 2000ft^3 HT the ULF this thing puts out definitely outdoes the FV18 and the mid-bass seems to be a bit stronger too.

The bad: I will preface this by saying I have not talked to Tom about this yet and there may be an easy/simple solution for this issue. I will be contacting him on Monday to get his thoughts on this issue.

These subs have a LOUD audible hum when the amp is on and the AVR is muted. This is my 3rd model of sub from PSA and I have never had this issue on the first two. I've usually set the gain between 12PM-3PM on my S3010s and I have never heard a single peep of sound from them when the AVR is muted. At 12 o'clock gain both of my S3012s hum like I just plugged a guitar into a studio amp that is cranked up to 10. It is badly distracting and if this is what the final product is supposed to be like I think it cheapens these subs to the point where I might consider returning them. I have never had a single ground loop problem in my HT and the S3012 was plugged into the AVR and outlet the same exact way my S3010 always has been. I also tried several other cables, outlets, and outputs from the AVR just to be sure. The humming would not go away no matter what I tried.

I hope this helps some of you out who were waiting for some first impressions on the new Neo subs. I will make sure to update everyone after I am able to speak with Tom about the humming!

Great review and first impressions. Thanks!!!

For what it is worth, my TV36 ipal hums as well. At least one other person has mentioned it on this thread too. I have noticed if I raise the gain above ~12:00 the hum is more noticeable from my MLP, around 12 ft from the sub when the AVR is muted. Anything below 12:00 and I cannot hear it from my MLP. I even tried disconnecting the sub cable but it still hums. I believe Tom has stated that due to the sensitivity of these new drivers they will hum a bit (at least I believe that was the reason he stated for the hum). I can live with it, but I wish Tom could do something to make it go away.
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post #52961 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 02:02 AM
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Id like to stay with psa but the uk has gone quiet on newer models...
I just fancy a change from s15’s...
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post #52962 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by zambine View Post

Testing Method: I tested a single S3012 stacked on top of a S3010 (due space limitations) and switched the LFE signal back and forth using my miniDSP. I also switched between a single FV18 paper cone that I have just for the fun of it............


.......In my sealed 2000ft^3 HT the ULF this thing puts out definitely outdoes the FV18 and the mid-bass seems to be a bit stronger too.
Wow, I'm a fan of the S3012 but this surprised me as the FV18 is ported with a low tune. Very impressive considering the mid bass capability of the sub. Sounds like the total package.
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post #52963 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 04:07 AM
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My 3600 hums as well, only when the gain is over about 11 o'clock though. To get it to stop I have to turn it down to about 9 o'clock and then I can turn it back up gradually.
I got around this by taking the output from the minidsp into a splitter so it's receiving double the signal (I'm also splitting the signal into the minidsp and routing both inputs to all outputs). This way I keep the gain really low, probably just over 8 o'clock and I get no hum at all.

Mine's a hum from the driver. Is your hum from the driver, or the amp?
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post #52964 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SuperFist View Post
I'll be honest here... there's no way I would deal with a humming noise I can hear from my main listening position, if that's the case with these new drivers. With Blue Jeans Cable and my dual S3000i's, my system is 100% silent other than when the actual movie is producing sound.
I hear ya. I have a Gen1 Emotiva XPA-5 that was making my rear Paradigm mini monitors hum. Drove me crazy knowing it was there, although you could only hear it with no activity in the rears. Thankfully once I got my PSA speakes the amp is no longer in use. This is disheartening to hear

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post #52965 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 05:34 AM
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My 3600 hums as well, only when the gain is over about 11 o'clock though. To get it to stop I have to turn it down to about 9 o'clock and then I can turn it back up gradually.
I got around this by taking the output from the minidsp into a splitter so it's receiving double the signal (I'm also splitting the signal into the minidsp and routing both inputs to all outputs). This way I keep the gain really low, probably just over 8 o'clock and I get no hum at all.

Mine's a hum from the driver. Is your hum from the driver, or the amp?
One thing to try is turning the low pass filter on the sub down just a touch so its not wide open. On my S3000 I found the hum was removed if I turned the LP dial down to 150-160 range, so I was guessing the hum was just higher frequency than that. Nothing scientific or informed about this advice, just something to try!
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post #52966 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 05:49 AM
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Can anyone comment on how the PSA 1512DF compares to the HSU VTF-15H MK2? Also, is there any significant performance differential between the 1512 and the 1512DF (I realize one is down-firing and the other is front firing). I can't seem to find any CEA measurements or frequency response charts for the 1512 or 1512DF. Is it just too new?
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post #52967 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zambine View Post
I finally had a quick hour or so to do some testing tonight and I thought I would share my thoughts.

.....

Initial impressions:

The good: My first impression of the S3012 was that this thing is a S3010 turned up to 11! I also mean this in a literal sense because I had been running the S3010 gain at 1 o'clock and I had to turn the S3012 back to 12 o'clock in order to level match them.

Everything about this sub so far seems to push what the S3010 was to the next level. The biggest plus out of this being a substantial increase in accuracy of the bass. So far it seems much tighter than the S3010, which I honestly found to be a bit muddy. The bass also does not seem to hang around in the room as long. I am definitely not ready to say that it is as accurate as my Rythmik subs are but it may honestly be pretty damn close.

There is also a noticeable increase in both mid-bass and ULF here vs the S3010. This sucker feels more violent in the room with me than the S3010 and the slam I felt in my chest when John Wick was destroying NPCs with his shot gun was extremely satisfying. In my sealed 2000ft^3 HT the ULF this thing puts out definitely outdoes the FV18 and the mid-bass seems to be a bit stronger too.

The bad: I will preface this by saying I have not talked to Tom about this yet and there may be an easy/simple solution for this issue. I will be contacting him on Monday to get his thoughts on this issue.

These subs have a LOUD audible hum when the amp is on and the AVR is muted. This is my 3rd model of sub from PSA and I have never had this issue on the first two. I've usually set the gain between 12PM-3PM on my S3010s and I have never heard a single peep of sound from them when the AVR is muted. At 12 o'clock gain both of my S3012s hum like I just plugged a guitar into a studio amp that is cranked up to 10. It is badly distracting and if this is what the final product is supposed to be like I think it cheapens these subs to the point where I might consider returning them. I have never had a single ground loop problem in my HT and the S3012 was plugged into the AVR and outlet the same exact way my S3010 always has been. I also tried several other cables, outlets, and outputs from the AVR just to be sure. The humming would not go away no matter what I tried.

I hope this helps some of you out who were waiting for some first impressions on the new Neo subs. I will make sure to update everyone after I am able to speak with Tom about the humming!
Great review...!!! I've had my S1512 for nearly two weeks and share the same impressions and experiences as you... including the very audible buzz/hum.

Try this... If you have your S3012's built-in crossover set fully up to "bypass" (like most users should), turn it back just enough to engage the crossover (150Hz). If it's behaving like mine, your loud buzz will transition to just a faintly audible hum. It will still be there, but no where near as annoying. Engaging the crossover at 150Hz should have little no effect on it's performance.

I did notify Tom of this via email and he did confirm that programming the DSP for these new highly sensitive drivers has been quite a chore. They are working on reworking the gain structure in the DSP which should help with the buzzing/humming.

Like you, I've tried every possible thing that I can do, up to and including turning off the radio transmitters in my wireless router, and nothing eliminates the buzz/hum. This is unfortunate for me because my room is on the smaller side and my sub is close to the MLP.

After days of pulling my hair out trying to find the source, I finally had an epiphany moment... When all of my equipment passes through the same AC line filters (which also eliminates DC offset); and no "common" sources that cause ground loop are used; and no other subwoofer used before the S1512 has shown the same issue (using the same cables and power) and the noise floor of the system as a whole (other than the S1512) is dead silent... then why am I chasing my tail...?

Since your experiences mirror mine, please do send that email to support. It's always good for them to know when there's more than just one person that see's the same issue in similar situations.

Other than for this one single issue, which I'm hoping Tom can rectify, I absolutely am in love with my S1512. I've never owned a Rythmik, but this is without a doubt the best subwoofer I've yet to own when it comes to downright "musicality". Outstanding mid-bass detail and punch with no apparent overhang.

I live in a townhome where my dedicated "media room" is a nicely appointed basement, so I can't be a ULF junkie (without involving local law enforcement), but this little gem surely checks all of the boxes that are most important to me...
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post #52968 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 06:44 AM
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One thing to try is turning the low pass filter on the sub down just a touch so its not wide open. On my S3000 I found the hum was removed if I turned the LP dial down to 150-160 range, so I was guessing the hum was just higher frequency than that. Nothing scientific or informed about this advice, just something to try!
Yes... you beat me to the suggestion, but this worked for me too. It didn’t totally eliminate it, but did change the level and frequency. It went from a very audible buzz to a barely audible hummm...
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post #52969 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 07:34 AM
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I had a noticeable hum on my V1812's as well. I removed the Y splitters that I was using to boost the amp signal and it went away. I can still notice a very slight hum if I get within 1 foot of the subs but that is it. I think the amp is causing it though because it hums even if nothing is plugged in. The moment the amp comes on it will hum.

I've been experimenting with my subs over the last few days. I noticed I get much more ULF if the room size is cranked up. I also noticed that the bass takes on a thicker tone if I use the TRIM instead of the gain dial on the back of the sub. The shotgun scene in John Wick 3 is very satisfying on these. I don't think I have felt a punch that hard and accurate before. The only movie that I have had problems with is the intro to Blade Runner 2049. The bass in 2049 causes the mirrors in my bathroom to rattle so loud I can hear them through the walls. My front doors rattle and the lights in my kitchen too. My movie room is nice and quiet though because it's treated properly. There is one point where the bass signal is steady and strong before the police cruiser does it's fly by where the subs seem to lose sync with the bass signal for about 1.5 seconds. Turning the volume down 2db fixes the problem so I would assume I have found the limits of these subs in that scene. Other than that one scene I have not found any areas where these subs struggle and I have pushed volumes way above normal just to see what they can do and have come away impressed.

If I turn the subs up past 12 o clock position with room size maxed out there is a single clip from Apocalypse Now that causes a very minor amount of port noise. This is only audible at 6 feet or closer to the subs and I don't personally listen at those volumes but like all subs they do have limitations. If I had a very large room that required that these subs be cranked past 3 o clock I could see these having some problems but adjusting the room size could help the subwoofer deal with it at the expense of some lost ULF or someone with that kind of situation could purchase the IPAL version and it would probably handle it better.

As for the discussion about two subs vs one large one....Dual subs is one of the largest improvements you can make. According to the PSA website, the TV36 is 14hz-150hz. The V1812's are 16hz-150hz. There is no way I would trade the benefits of dual subs for a 2hz drop in the ULF range. Just my opinion. I went though that decision recently as well and choose dual V1812. Cabinates are much smaller and manageable and I think a single TV36 would look pretty odd in my room as apposed to dual V1812's that still look like traditional dedicated subs. I wouldn't buy the the TV36 unless I planned to buy two of them for a room that required more decibels to reach the same sound levels that have in my room now. Then I would buy 2X TV36. Depends on the room you are in. Different strokes for different folks. Regardless of frequency and port tune, you are getting more punch from larger drivers that move more air. For $300 it's a worthy upgrade option to go from 15 to 18 inch drivers.

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post #52970 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 08:22 AM
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I finally had a quick hour or so to do some testing tonight and I thought I would share my thoughts.
Nice write up. I'm impressed with your findings, as Bear said, I didn't expect to read that it's outdoing the FV18 in the ULF simply because the FV18 is a LT ported sub. And I have to say it's fun reading that others are definitely noticing the sound quality of the bass from these new drivers, it confirms what we've been saying since the TV36 came out. They truly are something special, and the more you listen to them the more addicting the bass becomes.

But hums can be annoying. The 2400ULF put a hum through my entire system so badly that I not only had a hum in the subwoofers but I also had a hum coming from every single speaker in the setup. I had a surround sound hum, not fun. My TV36's do have a hum but it's almost inaudible. I didn't even notice it until someone else here mentioned their's had a slight one, so I put my ear next to the driver and sure enough there was a hum but its so slight you can't hear it until you put your ear next to the driver.

So are you saying if your system isn't muted you can't hear the hum? I know we are all different but personally that wouldn't bother me too much because I rarely mute my AVR and I don't mind a hum if I can't hear it when I'm playing material through my system. If there is no hum when I'm doing those things then I'm fine. But if a hum interrupts and ruins what I'm doing then that's a problem. It sounds like some have tamed the hum by turning down the gain (and I'm assuming compensating with the trim) and I also find the crossover solution DOC suggested interesting.

Anyway, nice write up and I hope you get things sorted out, I would hate for you to miss out on the bass these subs are delivering.
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post #52971 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 08:44 AM
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I have TV36IPALS, I wouldn't consider the sound I hear a hum.....it's sounds more like a slight fan noise......not a 60hz type of hum.

The real deal is that it's extremely slight and you only hear it in dead silence and like someone else said it's there without any cables plugged into the subs also.

The greatness of these subs more than makes up for it though. Like Tom said, it's the sensitivity of the drivers that causes this. I think it's a very slight price to pay for their performance, but it would be nice if there was a way to eliminate it.

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post #52972 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 08:51 AM
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The greatness of these subs more than makes up for it though. Like Tom said, it's the sensitivity of the drivers that causes this. I think it's a very slight price to pay for their performance, but it would be nice if there was a way to eliminate it.
I absolutely agree. The only way I'm giving up these subs is when someone pries them from my cold dead hands... and even then there would be a fight.
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post #52973 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 09:30 AM
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Hmmmm... you bring up some nice points and you are right... in fact I think you and Bear both have valid points.

But I still would still choose an 18" driver every time simply because I have heard 15" drivers and I have heard 18" drivers and they definitely present differently. I've also read reports from DIY guys who have gone to 21" drivers and even 24" drivers and every time they report the same thing, you step up in driver size and the bass seems to penetrate deeper and deeper into your very soul. To me that's worth the extra price of admission.

It's probably a TR thing but the the bass delivered from a larger driver definitely seems more crushing, just like the the bass from a LT sub seems to carry more weight (even with bass that has little to no ULF). I don't know why this is but I have definitely noticed it... as have others. We all may be crazy but I find that hard to believe.
Yea I would agree with that based on my results when I compared a V1801 to my 15v's. However most of those comparisons are with lower efficiency drivers and comparing drivers of the same class. Has anybody compared a B&C Neo 15 to lets say a Dayton UM-18 and said the UM-18 had more punch and crushing bass? Sure if you are comparing UM-15 to UM-18, but my gut instinct tells me the Neo 15 will punch as good if not better then many of the 18" subs. Sure the 18 Neo will punch even harder then the 15, but are we at a point now where we can say OK there is plenty of punch, let's lower the tune down to 12-14hz because even if it shaves 2db off the top end it's not going to be noticed. I believe in balance and you can get to a point where there is too much punch and not enough depth.

Look at it this way for example...on paper based on what limited data we have, the V1812 is going to be similar to a V3611 above 30hz in output but 4-5db less below that. So do you make it a little larger and lower the tune so it has 2-3db more 12-16hz, 1-2db less in the 16-30hz, 1-2db less up top?
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post #52974 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 09:40 AM
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Yea I would agree with that based on my results when I compared a V1801 to my 15v's. However most of those comparisons are with lower efficiency drivers and comparing drivers of the same class. Has anybody compared a B&C Neo 15 to lets say a Dayton UM-18 and said the UM-18 had more punch and crushing bass? Sure if you are comparing UM-15 to UM-18, but my gut instinct tells me the Neo 15 will punch as good if not better then many of the 18" subs. Sure the 18 Neo will punch even harder then the 15, but are we at a point now where we can say OK there is plenty of punch, let's lower the tune down to 12-14hz because even if it shaves 2db off the top end it's not going to be noticed. I believe in balance and you can get to a point where there is too much punch and not enough depth.

Look at it this way for example...on paper based on what limited data we have, the V1812 is going to be similar to a V3611 above 30hz in output but 4-5db less below that. So do you make it a little larger and lower the tune so it has 2-3db more 12-16hz, 1-2db less in the 16-30hz, 1-2db less up top?
Good points and based on what Zambine just wrote it appears you are dead on. The 15" Neo drivers are delivering plenty of weight and punch.
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post #52975 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 09:42 AM
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Yea I would agree with that based on my results when I compared a V1801 to my 15v's. However most of those comparisons are with lower efficiency drivers and comparing drivers of the same class. Has anybody compared a B&C Neo 15 to lets say a Dayton UM-18 and said the UM-18 had more punch and crushing bass? Sure if you are comparing UM-15 to UM-18, but my gut instinct tells me the Neo 15 will punch as good if not better then many of the 18" subs. Sure the 18 Neo will punch even harder then the 15, but are we at a point now where we can say OK there is plenty of punch, let's lower the tune down to 12-14hz because even if it shaves 2db off the top end it's not going to be noticed. I believe in balance and you can get to a point where there is too much punch and not enough depth.

Look at it this way for example...on paper based on what limited data we have, the V1812 is going to be similar to a V3611 above 30hz in output but 4-5db less below that. So do you make it a little larger and lower the tune so it has 2-3db more 12-16hz, 1-2db less in the 16-30hz, 1-2db less up top?
I would be 100% on that train. As it is, people who want quality bass but a lower tune could turn to Rythmik.
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post #52976 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 10:02 AM
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One thing to try is turning the low pass filter on the sub down just a touch so its not wide open. On my S3000 I found the hum was removed if I turned the LP dial down to 150-160 range, so I was guessing the hum was just higher frequency than that. Nothing scientific or informed about this advice, just something to try!
You're right, that changes the hum. It doesn't get rid of it, but it becomes quieter and a different tone. As I say, it's not a problem as I double the input signal meaning I can keep the gain low which results in zero hum.
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post #52977 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 10:13 AM
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Good points and based on what Zambine just wrote it appears you are dead on. The 15" Neo drivers are delivering plenty of weight by the sounds of it.
Yea I am looking forward to more reviews on the Neo stuff because like we talked I am interested in possibly upgrading to some down the road. I will stick with 3 subs, so I might sell one PSA to help fund neo upgrades for the other 2 and keep the JTR far field for added low end.
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post #52978 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 10:20 AM
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Look at it this way for example...on paper based on what limited data we have, the V1812 is going to be similar to a V3611 above 30hz in output but 4-5db less below that. So do you make it a little larger and lower the tune so it has 2-3db more 12-16hz, 1-2db less in the 16-30hz, 1-2db less up top?
Tom has done an incredible job with all the new subs this year and we know more are coming early next year when the value line makes its debut... so I can certainly understand if he's not interested in messing around pursuing smaller LT subs at the moment. But down the road I hope he does because I agree with you, I think it would be a good addition and worth the energy to make it happen.

I think a TV1812 or a TV1512 would be cool and I think Tom found a great tuning point at 13 to 14Hz with the TV36 so I would imagine he would aim for that with the smaller subs (if he decides to go for it). With room gain I'm hitting powerful output to 11Hz and the the mid bass is still where it should be and the sound quality is incredible. It's a nice marriage of ULF, mid bass and sound quality.
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post #52979 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 10:33 AM
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I would be 100% on that train. As it is, people who want quality bass but a lower tune could turn to Rythmik.

It's interesting that zambine stated this in his review of his new S3012".......In my sealed 2000ft^3 HT the ULF this thing puts out definitely outdoes the FV18 and the mid-bass seems to be a bit stronger too."

On paper the Rythmiks may have a lower tune, but it sounds like zambine feels the ULF is stronger on the PSA's. I guess we'll have to wait for someone to take some measurements to be sure.
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post #52980 of 54075 Old 12-07-2019, 10:42 AM
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It's interesting that zambine stated this in his review of his new S3012".......In my sealed 2000ft^3 HT the ULF this thing puts out definitely outdoes the FV18 and the mid-bass seems to be a bit stronger too."

On paper the Rythmiks may have a lower tune, but it sounds like zambine feels the ULF is stronger on the PSA's. I guess we'll have to wait for someone to take some measurements to be sure.
I think we need to give him a week or two to get a more complete feel of the subs.

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