Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1772 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #53131 of 53944 Old 12-14-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by colinmatheny11 View Post
I'm strongly considering sending my dual xs30se's back within the 60 day return window to get a single TV36 iPal.

Am I crazy for considering this? Should I just keep the dual xs30se's?

Thoughts?

Thank you in advance!

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First off, I don't think you are crazy. I have a single TV36 ipal and it is pure bliss. But that's in my room and every room is different. And as basshead pointed out, there is an advantage to duals. But it also sounds as if you have an itch to upgrade to the TV36. You need to ask yourself, even if you upgrade to the S3012's, are you still going to be itching for a TV36 down the road? Can you fit two TV36's in your room? If you can, but don't have the funds for both right now, you may want to consider upgrading to a single TV36 for now and then add a second down the road if you think it is necessary. This would be a much less expensive route in the long haul than upgrading twice.

Only you can decide. But if you are like many of us (and it sounds as if you are) and always wondering what if, and have the room, going to a TV36 now may be your best choice in my opinion.
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post #53132 of 53944 Old 12-14-2019, 12:15 PM
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I have the room for two...

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post #53133 of 53944 Old 12-14-2019, 12:34 PM
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I took some precise measurements of my room, my seating position, and my wife's seating position, and fiddled with the REW Simulation to see if I could find a subwoofer placement that provided good results for both seats. I've read that the simulation is relatively accurate but I'm not sure how useful it will be for my room. The top left corner of the room has a 5' 8" opening (which I close with a black velvet curtain to maintain contrast) and there is a small utility closet in the back right corner which is 2' wide and 7' long.

In any case, the simulation indicates I can get nearly identical results from 18Hz to ~100Hz if I place the sub centered in the room 9' 6" from the back. Since the back of the room is basically empty, this is fine. If I'm only concerned about the MLP, I can do a bit better with a different spot, but then that spot would result in a 20 db null at around 65Hz for my wife. Due to the room dimensions, I get peaks at ~19Hz, 37Hz, and 56Hz.

Thus far, I haven't seen much benefit from a second subwoofer when I play with the simulation tool. It seems like I would be fine with a single TV3612; I'm sure it has sufficient headroom to EQ in my modest sized room.
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post #53134 of 53944 Old 12-14-2019, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmatheny11 View Post
I'm strongly considering sending my dual xs30se's back within the 60 day return window to get a single TV36 iPal.

Am I crazy for considering this? Should I just keep the dual xs30se's?

Thoughts?

Thank you in advance!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmatheny11 View Post
I have the room for two...

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Hi,

If you are strongly considering it (and are adding that you have the room for two TV36's) then I think you would be crazy not to do it. There is hardly anyone on this thread, or on any other subwoofer thread for that matter, who hasn't done more than one subwoofer upgrade over time. If you are within the return window on your new subs and are already strongly questioning your selection in favor of something much more powerful, then welcome to the club. You, sir, are well on your way to becoming a fellow basshead.

Even very experienced HT owners have trouble correctly predicting how their bass preferences may increase over time, and the low-tuned ported subs have unleashed a flood of upgrades on this thread. The very fact that you are strongly considering buying a TV36 now, and another later, is all the evidence I need to encourage you to do it.

It's far easier to make the upgrade within the return window than it will be later, and if you do a more incremental upgrade, to more powerful sealed subs, you will probably still be left wondering what if? That's how people find themselves doing multiple upgrades. There really is something special about low-tuned ported subs, and if you can get great mid-bass and low-distortion too, then you have the whole package.

I agree with others that you will probably end-up with dual subs again, but there is nothing at all wrong with doing that one sub at a time if you need to.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #53135 of 53944 Old 12-14-2019, 02:04 PM
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I may or may not ever get a second TV36, but I could fit one.

I'd hope that I'd be plenty satisfied (for awhile) with a single TV36 iPal.

Funnily enough I was originally looking for a vented subs(s) before I snagged the xs30se's from the outlet.

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post #53136 of 53944 Old 12-14-2019, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmatheny11 View Post
Do you think the s3012's are a significant upgrade to the xs30se's?

I'm not opposed to dual vented subs either such as the v1812's.

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Yes without a doubt. That being said if you have room and budget for TV36 then I would start there and add another if/when necessary. I just personally couldn't go back to one sub...everybody is different. I just like how multiple subs do a better job of filling the room and remove almost all the dead spots. a single sub no matter how powerful or good is always going have a sweet spot in the room and depending on placement might need a lot of EQ to get a decent response.
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post #53137 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The Neo's no doubt have fantastic sound quality and mid bass. What really sets them apart thought, is that in addition to this fantastic mid and upper bass capability, they also have very respectable excursion for low frequency output, making them extremely well rounded subs. In fact, the new 15" B&C Neo has substantially more rated Xmax than the previous driver. I'm not disagreeing with Tom, just saying that for me, I'd pay the small extra price for the extra output and extension.
Would you say the same if the price differential was $250 rather than $150?

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post #53138 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 07:50 AM
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What is the difference between the TV36 and V36, line? I see you can get the Ipal driver in both versions.

Thanks
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post #53139 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by AnthemAVM View Post
What is the difference between the TV36 and V36, line? I see you can get the Ipal driver in both versions.

Thanks
The TV36 has a lower port tune (13.5Hz vs 18Hz IIRC) so it will have much more output for infrasonic frequencies.
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post #53140 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I would send them back and get dual S3012's. As much as i like the TV36, I wouldn't ever go from duals back to a single. Too many benefits of duals even if they are lower caliber. To me one sub is like turning off all your speakers and just listening to a center channel or sound bar. Dual subs make the bass less directional and more enveloping when setup right. 4 subs setup make the bass sound like it's coming from the room in all directions...much smoother response and better dynamics because less EQ is needed to flatten the response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmatheny11 View Post
I may or may not ever get a second TV36, but I could fit one.

I'd hope that I'd be plenty satisfied (for awhile) with a single TV36 iPal.

Funnily enough I was originally looking for a vented subs(s) before I snagged the xs30se's from the outlet.

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Yes without a doubt. That being said if you have room and budget for TV36 then I would start there and add another if/when necessary. I just personally couldn't go back to one sub...everybody is different. I just like how multiple subs do a better job of filling the room and remove almost all the dead spots. a single sub no matter how powerful or good is always going have a sweet spot in the room and depending on placement might need a lot of EQ to get a decent response.
So, should dual S3012 outperform Dual V1512 or V1812 in the same placement?

My current setup of dual S3000i measure quite good in the current placement of L/R speaker stands so I would hope that any 2 subs should measure and sound good there as well.

As I have mentioned, I am much more movie biased now than before.

A lot of good information has been flowing here lately
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post #53141 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 10:06 AM
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I’ve been learning a lot on AVS since I started with a HTIB setup almost 2yr ago. I just started the rabbit hole of REW and I’m not sure how to interpret/analyze this.

Is this a normal wide room modal/null? Can this be corrected with a second S1812*Ipal & minidsp?

My room is a not ideal, semi-sealed, almost squarish 13.4’x13.8’. I do have acoustic treatments on the back wall, left and front. The REW room simulator shows a 10dB increase in that region with a second sub on the front. Subwoofer amp volume is at 10 o’clock. Audeyssey set -11 at calibration, and I raised to -2. Speakers crossed at 80Hz and LPF 120Hz.
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5.1.4 Setup / Front: Chane A2.4 L-C-R,. Surround: Airmotiv E1, Atmos: Imagine XA, Sub: PSA S1801, TV Samsung 65 4k

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post #53142 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Yes without a doubt. That being said if you have room and budget for TV36 then I would start there and add another if/when necessary. I just personally couldn't go back to one sub...everybody is different. I just like how multiple subs do a better job of filling the room and remove almost all the dead spots. a single sub no matter how powerful or good is always going have a sweet spot in the room and depending on placement might need a lot of EQ to get a decent response.
Ok, so the TV36 is huge. Moreso once I got the tape measure out.

I could fit one, but the WAF would be very low

So, back to duals...

2 s3012's over 2 v18 Ipals?



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post #53143 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by colinmatheny11 View Post
Ok, so the TV36 is huge. Moreso once I got the tape measure out.

I could fit one, but the WAF would be very low

So, back to duals...

2 s3012's over 2 v18 Ipals?
Smart using tape measure. When I went from a 10" sub to an XS30, I took it a little farther and made a paper template for footprint. They are bigger than you think, but they do get smaller after being placed and listened to for a while

Same question on dual S3012 vs dual V1512 or V1812/Neo or V1812/Ipal
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post #53144 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webie View Post
I’ve been learning a lot on AVS since I started with a HTIB setup almost 2yr ago. I just started the rabbit hole of REW and I’m not sure how to interpret/analyze this.

Is this a normal wide room modal/null? Can this be corrected with a second S1812*Ipal & minidsp?

My room is a not ideal, semi-sealed, almost squarish 13.4’x13.8’. I do have acoustic treatments on the back wall, left and front. The REW room simulator shows a 10dB increase in that region with a second sub on the front. Subwoofer amp volume is at 10 o’clock. Audeyssey set -11 at calibration, and I raised to -2. Speakers crossed at 80Hz and LPF 120Hz.
I'm no expert but it looks like you have some work to do here. That null is in a bad area. Have you tried moving the sub around to see how it reacts?

I had similar response with a single XS30. Moved it around and got better but once I went to dual S3000, I was able to get fantastic results.

This took quite a few weekends of tweaking to achieve. Placement, levels, phase, distance, room size control. Wash, rinse, repeat over and over again. But once your get it, put away the gear and enjoy.
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post #53145 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webie View Post
I’ve been learning a lot on AVS since I started with a HTIB setup almost 2yr ago. I just started the rabbit hole of REW and I’m not sure how to interpret/analyze this.

Is this a normal wide room modal/null? Can this be corrected with a second S1812*Ipal & minidsp?

My room is a not ideal, semi-sealed, almost squarish 13.4’x13.8’. I do have acoustic treatments on the back wall, left and front. The REW room simulator shows a 10dB increase in that region with a second sub on the front. Subwoofer amp volume is at 10 o’clock. Audeyssey set -11 at calibration, and I raised to -2. Speakers crossed at 80Hz and LPF 120Hz.

Hi,

I can't tell you whether that area of cancellation, centered on 30Hz, is a normal room width mode. But, I can tell you that is not a good frequency response at all. You have very high peaks at ~16Hz and 44Hz, and no SPL at all between 25Hz and 35Hz. I definitely think that you need a second sub to fill-in the dip, and to help pull-down the peaks.

That's what happens with dual subs which are correctly placed. Ideally, each one helps to fill-in for areas where the other is dipping, and the peaks from one sub correspond to dips from the other sub. If the REW simulator tells you that another S18 on the front wall, will pull-up the dip at 30Hz, then I would definitely give it a try.

Two quick observations, for whatever they are worth. First, room treatments won't help with the frequencies you are concerned about. Really thick bass traps with air spaces behind them (such as triangular corner traps) can affect frequencies down to about 70Hz or so. But, most of what is happening in your graph is occurring below the capability of even those thick corner traps. Normal 4" thick wall panels won't help to absorb bass frequencies much below about 120Hz.

Second, Audyssey can't really help you right now with the stuff going on below 45Hz. Once your sub begins such a long roll-off into that area of cancellation, Audyssey isn't EQing anymore. Audyssey is designed to stop setting control points where subs are down (more-or-less permanently) by 3db. That is to protect the subs from being over-driven by EQ boosts. (I believe that is why the two graphs look identical below 45Hz.)

If you can present Audyssey with a somewhat more balanced initial FR (through the addition of a second sub) it will be better able to help smooth-out the peaks and lift some of the random dips. At that point, a miniDSP may be very helpful to generate a house curve. You are getting some excellent room gain at 16Hz, and Audyssey may try to knock that down a little, once it is able to keep EQing that low. With dual subs, you should be pretty solid out to 10Hz or so, and you may want to add a rising house curve.

So, I would say absolutely do add the sub you want, and decide on the need for a miniDSP once you measure the combined frequency response and determine how things sound. One thing that I would recommend, as a matter of best practice, is to raise the gain on your sub a little, and to keep the sub's AVR trim at about -5 or less. It honestly shouldn't make any real difference right now, but it's still a good general policy to keep in mind, for reasons explained in the Guide linked below.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #53146 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webie View Post
I’ve been learning a lot on AVS since I started with a HTIB setup almost 2yr ago. I just started the rabbit hole of REW and I’m not sure how to interpret/analyze this.

Is this a normal wide room modal/null? Can this be corrected with a second S1812*Ipal & minidsp?

My room is a not ideal, semi-sealed, almost squarish 13.4’x13.8’. I do have acoustic treatments on the back wall, left and front. The REW room simulator shows a 10dB increase in that region with a second sub on the front. Subwoofer amp volume is at 10 o’clock. Audeyssey set -11 at calibration, and I raised to -2. Speakers crossed at 80Hz and LPF 120Hz.
I have a response that looks just like that at my MLP if I place my sub at the back of the room (behind my listening position) and it doesn't matter whether I put my DD15, S3000, or S3600 there the response is the same. For me the solution is to move two of the subs to the front stage which gives me a significantly better response.

Given that the response is the interaction between the sub position and the seating position, can you move the sub or the seat at all? Even pulling the seat forward by 1ft or so might be enough to improve the MLP response.

Other than that, I EQ'd my peaks down, turned the sub up and ran it VNF. That may or may not be an option for you.
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post #53147 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 02:10 PM
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Hello, if you're waiting for Tom to chime in here on this thread regarding the hum issues some are reporting with the B&C drivers I personally don't see that happening any time soon. He's so busy with every aspect of providing the best subwoofer experience possible right now and trying desperately to catch up on back orders. Phone support has been sporadic but emails are constant. He'll stay as late as needed(sometimes midnight) to ensure 99% of emails are answered that day or at worst...within 24 hours. That's 7 days/365. So again email him at [email protected]

Doing this (email) is for him the most efficient way to address each person's issues without trying to filter out any of the folks who inevitably chime in with their snide comments who don't even own a PSA product. I know most of you remember the V18s chuffing machine posts, I've owned five of them and never once experienced this issue, this is just one incident that got out of control.


The humming thing is difficult because it is directly related to using high sensitivity woofers and there's no industry standard you can use to gauge it on the production side. Tom can have a system with zero hum there at shop and ship it to 25 people, 24 of them might be fine, the 25th...not fine. So many variables in the field in terms of electricity, EMI, cables, systems, setup procedures, and on and on and on. And another big variable is just people. Some (most) could care less if the sub emits a low level noise as long as it is inaudible at their seating with the system on and playing at their lowest (common) listening levels. Others, they want a dead silent room, and put their ear an inch from the cone. Any noise at that point is unacceptable to them. To each his own I guess.................

As far as I can tell Tom and PSA is the only ID subwoofer company using the high sensitivity B&C drivers in (now) the complete line of subs that are offered, that's quite a huge and significant undertaking just like bringing amp manufacturing and assembly in house and spray booth (finishing) as well. Many competitors are still using the lower sensitivity drivers and have done so for many years.


QUOTE: Tom
This brings up another point: Also, right off the top of my head I'd say we've shipped close to 225-250 subs now with the B&C woofers. So if we see 3-5 guys working thru a noise issue we also have to think about the percentage they represent.

I think those are very good results when launching a brand new design, wouldn't you agree?
On another note, the B&C stuff is selling so fast that we're going to be 100% out of new woofers soon. I mean, we JUST got the whole container load from Italy 3 weeks(?) ago.

If any of you guys are the fence with a new Sub(s) purchase I wouldn't hold off much longer, getting the B&C drivers from Italy isn't a duck walk across the pond...............


Tom mentioned the price increases in both material cost (finish product) and the new tweeters for the speakers, I don't know how he manages all facets of running this business, I guess that's why he's there 7/365 and is there till midnight most days.
I know when using the 1920w amps with the Eminence drivers I never had to turn the amp gain above 9-9:30 to bring back a sub trim of -11dB, this has to be very similar when using the higher sensitivity B&C drivers thus eliminating some of the hum issues along with good cables and dedicated circuits, maybe that's why I've never experienced any hum issues with my 27 subs I've had in my home, also never heard the B&C drivers though and can only imagine the next level signature sound they reproduce, low tuned with the mid bass slam we're all used to, best of both worlds......................

Thanks for listening to long winded post.

Jeffrey
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post #53148 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
The humming thing is difficult because it is directly related to using high sensitivity woofers and there's no industry standard you can use to gauge it on the production side. Tom can have a system with zero hum there at shop and ship it to 25 people, 24 of them might be fine, the 25th...not fine. So many variables in the field in terms of electricity, EMI, cables, systems, setup procedures, and on and on and on. And another big variable is just people. Some (most) could care less if the sub emits a low level noise as long as it is inaudible at their seating with the system on and playing at their lowest (common) listening levels. Others, they want a dead silent room, and put their ear an inch from the cone. Any noise at that point is unacceptable to them. To each his own I guess.................



Jeffrey
I also believe that there are some unavoidable tradeoffs with high efficiency drivers. Supercars are never going to be as quiet and smooth as a luxury car but you don't buy a suoercar to drive 5 miles per hour around the neighborhood over speed bumps.

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post #53149 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
...I had similar response with a single XS30. Moved it around and got better but once I went to dual S3000, I was able to get fantastic results. This took quite a few weekends of tweaking to achieve. Placement, levels, phase, distance, room size control. Wash, rinse, repeat over and over again...
Thanks Gbreda! That's very encouraging. I was worried 2 subs wouldn't be able to fix it. Now with REW at hand, the wash, rinse, repeat over will be a deep rabbit hole...


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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
...So, I would say absolutely do add the sub you want, and decide on the need for a miniDSP once you measure the combined frequency response and determine how things sound. One thing that I would recommend, as a matter of best practice, is to raise the gain on your sub a little, and to keep the sub's AVR trim at about -5 or less...
Thank you very much Mike, I really appreciate your detailed advice! When I ran Audeyssey the sub trim was set at -11. So getting the gain any higher than 10 o'clock will throw the trim pass the -12 Audeyssey max. I'll probably get a MiniDSP anyway so I can turn off Audeyssey Dynamic EQ and learn how to implement a house curve. Now the problem will be to get the second sub with all the orders Tom has in queue.


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Originally Posted by Conrad Nash View Post
...Given that the response is the interaction between the sub position and the seating position, can you move the sub or the seat at all? Even pulling the seat forward by 1ft or so might be enough to improve the MLP response...
Thanks Conrad! This is a living room setup, so no many sub locations available. The sub crawl sounded best at VNF and front. Currently the Sub is VNF, so now that I have REW I'll try the front position and measure.
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post #53150 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 04:12 PM
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Just received my S1512 today and I’m happy to report there is no hum! That’s with using a 25 foot Monoprice cable and the crossover all the way to bypass. Sound quality seems excellent so far and is blending nicely with my Rythmik! One thing to note, Tom accidentally shipped the wrong sub (A down firing instead of Front firing) and with FedEx delaying my shipment 6 days it wasn’t a good experience. With a quick email to Tom, he got the correct sub shipped that day and offered a nice upgrade at no extra cost! Great customer service PSA! Can’t recommend them enough! I will post more after some more time with this little gem.

Receiver: Denon AVR-X4200W
Front L/R: Klipsch RP-600M, Center: Klipsch RP-504C, Surrounds: Axiom QS8
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post #53151 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Chatoboy View Post
Just received my S1512 today and I’m happy to report there is no hum! That’s with using a 25 foot Monoprice cable. Sound quality seems excellent so far and is blending nicely with my Rythmik! One thing to note, Tom accidentally shipped the wrong sub (A down firing instead of Front firing) and with FedEx delaying my shipment 6 days it wasn’t a good experience. With a quick email to Tom, he got the correct sub shipped that day and offered a nice upgrade at no extra cost! Great customer service PSA! Can’t recommend them enough! I will post more after some more time with this little gem.
Thanks for sharing your experience with Tom and PSA, I forgot to add in my above post about the hum issue that besides having the best products customer service is second to NONE. :
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post #53152 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatoboy View Post
Just received my S1512 today and I’m happy to report there is no hum! That’s with using a 25 foot Monoprice cable. Sound quality seems excellent so far and is blending nicely with my Rythmik! One thing to note, Tom accidentally shipped the wrong sub (A down firing instead of Front firing) and with FedEx delaying my shipment 6 days it wasn’t a good experience. With a quick email to Tom, he got the correct sub shipped that day and offered a nice upgrade at no extra cost! Great customer service PSA! Can’t recommend them enough! I will post more after some more time with this little gem.
This is one of the reasons why I'll be a PSA customer for life.
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SOURCES, MISC, & 2ch: Xbox One X, Harmony Elite, Aircom T10, Chane A1.5 & AD18
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post #53153 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hello, if you're waiting for Tom to chime in here on this thread regarding the hum issues some are reporting with the B&C drivers I personally don't see that happening any time soon. He's so busy with every aspect of providing the best subwoofer experience possible right now and trying desperately to catch up on back orders. Phone support has been sporadic but emails are constant. He'll stay as late as needed(sometimes midnight) to ensure 99% of emails are answered that day or at worst...within 24 hours. That's 7 days/365. So again email him at [email protected]

Doing this (email) is for him the most efficient way to address each person's issues without trying to filter out any of the folks who inevitably chime in with their snide comments who don't even own a PSA product. I know most of you remember the V18s chuffing machine posts, I've owned five of them and never once experienced this issue, this is just one incident that got out of control.


The humming thing is difficult because it is directly related to using high sensitivity woofers and there's no industry standard you can use to gauge it on the production side. Tom can have a system with zero hum there at shop and ship it to 25 people, 24 of them might be fine, the 25th...not fine. So many variables in the field in terms of electricity, EMI, cables, systems, setup procedures, and on and on and on. And another big variable is just people. Some (most) could care less if the sub emits a low level noise as long as it is inaudible at their seating with the system on and playing at their lowest (common) listening levels. Others, they want a dead silent room, and put their ear an inch from the cone. Any noise at that point is unacceptable to them. To each his own I guess.................

As far as I can tell Tom and PSA is the only ID subwoofer company using the high sensitivity B&C drivers in (now) the complete line of subs that are offered, that's quite a huge and significant undertaking just like bringing amp manufacturing and assembly in house and spray booth (finishing) as well. Many competitors are still using the lower sensitivity drivers and have done so for many years.


QUOTE: Tom
This brings up another point: Also, right off the top of my head I'd say we've shipped close to 225-250 subs now with the B&C woofers. So if we see 3-5 guys working thru a noise issue we also have to think about the percentage they represent.

I think those are very good results when launching a brand new design, wouldn't you agree?
On another note, the B&C stuff is selling so fast that we're going to be 100% out of new woofers soon. I mean, we JUST got the whole container load from Italy 3 weeks(?) ago.

If any of you guys are the fence with a new Sub(s) purchase I wouldn't hold off much longer, getting the B&C drivers from Italy isn't a duck walk across the pond...............


Tom mentioned the price increases in both material cost (finish product) and the new tweeters for the speakers, I don't know how he manages all facets of running this business, I guess that's why he's there 7/365 and is there till midnight most days.
I know when using the 1920w amps with the Eminence drivers I never had to turn the amp gain above 9-9:30 to bring back a sub trim of -11dB, this has to be very similar when using the higher sensitivity B&C drivers thus eliminating some of the hum issues along with good cables and dedicated circuits, maybe that's why I've never experienced any hum issues with my 27 subs I've had in my home, also never heard the B&C drivers though and can only imagine the next level signature sound they reproduce, low tuned with the mid bass slam we're all used to, best of both worlds......................

Thanks for listening to long winded post.

Jeffrey
Thanks, I've been waiting to see what you were going to say about this. No snide comments from me, and I've never owned a PSA product. You mentioned last week I believe, that you were going to chime in after hearing more testimonials and I was interested to see what you'd say. I'm one of those guys sitting on the sidelines who isn't convinced everything is ok. I'm also not saying I need absolute silence with my ear one inch from the cone, as you put it. But I guess I'm somewhere in between. I want to be able to have the volume down to zero and hear absolutely nothing several feet from the subs. I don't wanna have someone over who doesn't understand much about audio but they pic up on that and ask me why they hear such a noise. I'm not prepared to deal with that and would feel somewhat embarrassed to have to try to explain it away. That's just me and how I feel. I can appreciate the people who feel I'm overreacting. I guess I want to read some professional reviews before I'm willing to pull the trigger.

Does anyone know if these have made it into the hands of any reputable pro reviewers?

Can anyone tell me if the sealed versions are maybe less likely to omit an unwanted sound? It seems most guys on this forum are interested in ported HT subs, so I don't get a lot of sealed sub info from here. (or maybe I'm not paying close enough attention?) Two S3612's with either Ipal or Neo's (I'd have to talk to Tom about that I guess) are all I'm interested in.

Are the Ipal's as much of an advantage in the sealed versions?

Do the Ipal's have a higher sensitivity rating than the Neo's? (You know what I'm getting at with this question)

Thanks, Brian

Edited some typo's
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post #53154 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 07:54 PM
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If I stand with my toes touching the front of the sub cabinet, I can't hear anything at all. Walking past them or sitting in a silent room produces no noise. The only way I can notice a hum is if I get on my hands and knees and tilt my head so that one of my ears is facing the sub within 1 foot of it. I currently have my V1812's set at 9 O clock so they are not loud but raising the gain doesn't seem to effect it for me. When I was using a Y splitter it seemed to amplify it but some don't seem to have that problem. Just thought I would chime in and let you know my opinion that the hum is a non issue and I also received great customer service from Tom.

I can't compare these new neo drivers to the old ones but comparing them to my old 15 inch Klipsch subs...they are way more detailed in their output. I can feel the signal changes in ULF frequencies more clearly and extreme bass like the intro to Blade Runner 2049 no longer sounds like a wall of bass. I can hear the digital replication of a bass chord as it vibrates back and forth. I pushed these subs to their limit just to see where the limit is but I can tell you in my 2100 sq ft room, I am listening at -10db and there isn't a single show from Blade Runner 2049 to Interstellar that has any chuffing, cabinet rattle or driver noise. These subs do deliver an excellent sound and the punch from the shotguns in John Wick 3 are like nothing I have ever experienced before. You can find subs that are tuned a little lower out there for more money but these deliver tip top performance from 16hz to 120hz that I doubt any other company can surpass at the moment and for the price they are an incredible deal.
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post #53155 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hello, if you're waiting for Tom to chime in here on this thread regarding the hum issues some are reporting with the B&C drivers I personally don't see that happening any time soon.

.....

The humming thing is difficult because it is directly related to using high sensitivity woofers and there's no industry standard you can use to gauge it on the production side. Tom can have a system with zero hum there at shop and ship it to 25 people, 24 of them might be fine, the 25th...not fine. So many variables in the field in terms of electricity, EMI, cables, systems, setup procedures, and on and on and on. And another big variable is just people. Some (most) could care less if the sub emits a low level noise as long as it is inaudible at their seating with the system on and playing at their lowest (common) listening levels. Others, they want a dead silent room, and put their ear an inch from the cone. Any noise at that point is unacceptable to them. To each his own I guess.................
I intended to come back this evening to give an update on my noise issues. I've exchanged quite a few emails with Tom over the last three weeks. Some of which was in regards to the loud, persistent buzzing and/or humming that I got with my brand new S1512. Previously, I had no problems with any subwoofer that I'd owned before the S1512 and the rest of my system is dead silent. Nothing that I did (including all of the suggestions mentioned here) had any effect on the noise (or the level of the noise). Turning the sub's built-in crossover down from "Bypass" to "150 Hz" was the only solution that made it almost inaudible.

In my first response from Tom, he pretty much echoed what you've quoted him as saying in your post, but also told me that he was working on a revised DSP code that would help with the noise issue on the new drivers.

On December 4th, I received word from Tom that the code had been vetted and that it would be included in a new amp that he was sending me. I received the amp just this past Friday (December 13th), installed it early Saturday morning and have been using it all weekend.

The results of his efforts are nothing short of phenomenal. Not only has the revised DSP gain structure "helped" with the noise, it has totally eliminated it. My "hum/buzz" went from very noticeable throughout my entire room to totally gone...!!! My S1512 is now DEAD SILENT from any distance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatoboy View Post
Just received my S1512 today and I’m happy to report there is no hum! That’s with using a 25 foot Monoprice cable.
Glad to hear that...!!! If your sub was built after December 4th, you likely have the revised DSP programming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadJRT View Post
I'm one of those guys sitting on the sidelines who isn't convinced everything is ok. I'm also not saying I need absolute silence at with my ear one inch from the cone, as you put it. But I guess I'm somewhere in between. I want to be able to have the volume down to zero and hear absolutely nothing several feet from the subs. I don't wanna have someone over who doesn't understand much about audio but they pic up on that and ask me why they hear such I noise. I'm not prepared to deal with that and would feel somewhat embarrassed to have to try to explain it away. That's just me and how I feel. I can appreciate the people who feel I'm overreacting. I guess I want to read some professional reviews before I'm willing to pull the trigger.

.....

Can anyone tell me if the sealed versions are maybe less likely to omit an unwanted sound? It seems most guys on this forum are interested in ported HT subs, so I don't get a lot of sealed sub info from here. (or maybe I'm not paying close enough attention?) Two S3612's with either Ipal or Neo's (I'd have to talk to Tom about that I guess) is all I'm interested in.
I totally get what you're saying, but rest assured, the noise issue should no longer be a problem. My S1512 is as quiet as a church mouse even with the gain set fully up and the pre/pro's volume control turned up to max. This sub is now just as "dead quiet" as any of the other subs that came before it. I run a fully balanced setup using XLR interconnects throughout. My AC line is not dedicated, but is filtered for both AC line noise and DC offset. If the sub was causing noise, I'd know it. So trust me when I say that what was one there is now totally gone.

In regards to the sealed versus ported question, a driver is going to be sensitive to and emit noise or it's not. The cabinet design won't make a difference.
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post #53156 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 08:48 PM
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Yea Tom is super busy. I emailed him yesterday about NEO upgrades. I think I am going to trade 1 15v towards upgrading my other 2 to NEO's. Tom replied and said it will likely be March before that is possible. So these new subs are selling faster then they can build them and upgrades are back burner at the moment.
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post #53157 of 53944 Old 12-15-2019, 09:33 PM
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Hello guys, just need some advice what to buy for my dedicated HT room size 21x14x9 ft LWH. Im leaning towards between dual V18 Ipal or single TV3612. How about dual S3612? Thanks for any input guys. I just sold my triple XS30SE and coz you know, upgradeatis struck. Currently i have dual JL Audio Fathom F113 online, and planning to sell it too (need funds) to give way for new PSA subs with new driver.
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post #53158 of 53944 Old 12-16-2019, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pinoy ako View Post
Hello guys, just need some advice what to buy for my dedicated HT room size 21x14x9 ft LWH. Im leaning towards between dual V18 Ipal or single TV3612. How about dual S3612? Thanks for any input guys. I just sold my triple XS30SE and coz you know, upgradeatis struck. Currently i have dual JL Audio Fathom F113 online, and planning to sell it too (need funds) to give way for new PSA subs with new driver.
I've got dual S3600s now in a slightly smaller room (16 x 12 x 9) and have a pair of TV42s ordered that should arrive soon. IIRC, the S3600s can hit reference down to around 10 Hz or so in my room and have strong performance everywhere.

I'm hoping the TV42s will give me much more tactile bass. The S3600s sound great and perform very well as I typically run bass at least 6 to 10 dB hot and use BassEQ for movies. However, my theater is on the lower level of our home on a concrete floor which is a problem for sealed subs and while I love my Crowsons, they don't make up for the mid-bass punch I believe I'm missing. I'm hoping the TV42s will arrive in the next week or two and I can report back on how they perform in this relatively small room.
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post #53159 of 53944 Old 12-16-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
I've got dual S3600s now in a slightly smaller room (16 x 12 x 9) and have a pair of TV42s ordered that should arrive soon. IIRC, the S3600s can hit reference down to around 10 Hz or so in my room and have strong performance everywhere.

I'm hoping the TV42s will give me much more tactile bass. The S3600s sound great and perform very well as I typically run bass at least 6 to 10 dB hot and use BassEQ for movies. However, my theater is on the lower level of our home on a concrete floor which is a problem for sealed subs and while I love my Crowsons, they don't make up for the mid-bass punch I believe I'm missing. I'm hoping the TV42s will arrive in the next week or two and I can report back on how they perform in this relatively small room.
How many S3600s do you have?

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post #53160 of 53944 Old 12-16-2019, 08:39 AM
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How many S3600s do you have?

I have dual S3600s located kitty corner from each other at front left corner of theater next to PJ screen and right rear corner next to the theater chairs.

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