Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1894 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #56791 of 57614 Old 05-30-2020, 06:07 PM
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General question for those that might know about the eminence vs the neo drivers. I know that there is a tendency that when models changed to the neo drivers the -3dB point may have gone up a few Hz. From looking at curves and data, I am guessing this change is not because of lesser output at the -3dB points but because the midbass output increases so much more. Is this correct?

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #56792 of 57614 Old 05-30-2020, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Hey guys. I was looking for a sub woofer to match my 15V and came across a guy who is selling a V1500 for $500. Is the V1500 in the same lineup with woofer and amp, or does the 15V match the V1501. And how does $500 sound for the V1500?
500 is cheap imo.

The V1500 is identical to the V1510...except for the amp. The 1510 upgraded to the in house design with 12v and xlr. But the performance is identical.

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post #56793 of 57614 Old 05-30-2020, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JonnyVee View Post
Hi Tom - Do you have an update on the new MT110 and MTM220s that you could share?
The china cabinets? I should have final samples of all for approval here in the next week(ish).

The delay in these was all me. As I mentioned recently I was worried about a big downturn in sales due to c19. So my first responsibility was to ensure I kept both spray booths busy---very busy. Big whiff by me. Sales are crazy. Right now, for example. I'm 100% out of (cabinets), TV42, S36, V18, S3012, And I have VERY LOW(like 2-3 left of each) on V1512, V1512df, S1512df, V36. So I basically have OK stock on three cabinets---the S1512, TV36 and S18. And not a whole lot of those either.

ANYWAY, I know the above is getting into "broken record" territory. But I'm just trying to be transparent.

Once approved it will be 11-12 weeks to be here in Ohio. I will update on approval in our PSA forum with updated costing/pricing and maybe a few other surprises as well.

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post #56794 of 57614 Old 05-30-2020, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
General question for those that might know about the eminence vs the neo drivers. I know that there is a tendency that when models changed to the neo drivers the -3dB point may have gone up a few Hz. From looking at curves and data, I am guessing this change is not because of lesser output at the -3dB points but because the midbass output increases so much more. Is this correct?
the -3dB point doesn't have much to do with the woofers. It is more cabinet + DSP considerations.

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post #56795 of 57614 Old 05-30-2020, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Hey guys. I was looking for a sub woofer to match my 15V and came across a guy who is selling a V1500 for $500. Is the V1500 in the same lineup with woofer and amp, or does the 15V match the V1501. And how does $500 sound for the V1500?
500 is cheap imo.

The V1500 is identical to the V1510...except for the amp. The 1510 upgraded to the in house design with 12v and xlr. But the performance is identical.

Tom V.
Team Power.
Ok thanks for the info on that!!

Also, do you see any issue of pairing the V1500 with the 15V?

He said the warranty is good through this November and i would have to drive 5 hrs to grab the sub. A bit of a drive for sure but then my setup would be complete. Would definitely save money over swapping the 15V out.

Question Tom: how do you handle support when the warranty is up? If something happens to the amplifier, do I have to just pay for a new amp to be sent? Would you still carry parts for the V1500 in the future?

Speakers: Fronts- JBL 230, Center- JBL 235C, Surrounds: Fluance XLBP
Sub: PSA 15V
Processing: Onkyo 676
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post #56796 of 57614 Old 05-30-2020, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Ok thanks for the info on that!!

Also, do you see any issue of pairing the V1500 with the 15V?

He said the warranty is good through this November and i would have to drive 5 hrs to grab the sub. A bit of a drive for sure but then my setup would be complete. Would definitely save money over swapping the 15V out.

Question Tom: how do you handle support when the warranty is up? If something happens to the amplifier, do I have to just pay for a new amp to be sent? Would you still carry parts for the V1500 in the future?
The two subs would integrate very well together. email me the serial number and I can verify warranty.

We currently stock every component for every product we have ever sold. There may come a time when that is no longer feasible...especially due to space constraints. But I don't see that happening for a long time. Out of warranty I would suggest sending the amp back to us first. We can often repair it at no cost and ship it back to you on our dime.

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post #56797 of 57614 Old 05-30-2020, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The china cabinets? I should have final samples of all for approval here in the next week(ish).

The delay in these was all me. As I mentioned recently I was worried about a big downturn in sales due to c19. So my first responsibility was to ensure I kept both spray booths busy---very busy. Big whiff by me. Sales are crazy. Right now, for example. I'm 100% out of (cabinets), TV42, S36, V18, S3012, And I have VERY LOW(like 2-3 left of each) on V1512, V1512df, S1512df, V36. So I basically have OK stock on three cabinets---the S1512, TV36 and S18. And not a whole lot of those either.

ANYWAY, I know the above is getting into "broken record" territory. But I'm just trying to be transparent.

Once approved it will be 11-12 weeks to be here in Ohio. I will update on approval in our PSA forum with updated costing/pricing and maybe a few other surprises as well.

Tom V.
Team Power.
Yeah, I meant the China cabinets. Thank you Tom. Looking forward to official news, preorders, and whatever surprises you have coming.

Projector and Screen: JVC x790 & 120" Stuart WallScreen StudioTek 130 G4
Audio: Denon x4400H 5.1.4 - Infinity R162 L/R, Infinity RC263 centre, Kef T101 surrounds, Kef Ci160er rear atmos, Energy V-Mini - front atmos, PSA v1512df (x2) & BOSS w/4 12” Subs
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post #56798 of 57614 Old 05-30-2020, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Out of warranty I would suggest sending the amp back to us first. We can often repair it at no cost and ship it back to you on our dime.



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If that isn't exceptional customer service...I don't know what is.
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post #56799 of 57614 Old 05-30-2020, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The two subs would integrate very well together. email me the serial number and I can verify warranty.

We currently stock every component for every product we have ever sold. There may come a time when that is no longer feasible...especially due to space constraints. But I don't see that happening for a long time. Out of warranty I would suggest sending the amp back to us first. We can often repair it at no cost and ship it back to you on our dime.

Tom V.
Team Power.
@butie120 I sent a direct message to Tom about the serial if it is mine I have listed on FB Marketplace

7.3.4 Setup---TV: LG OLED 65B7A, Receiver: Marantz SR-6012, External 2-channel amplifier: Marantz MM7025 (Front Towers), Blu-Ray Player: LG UBK90, Fronts: JBL S312, Center: JBL S-Center, Surrounds: JBL S38, Surround Backs: JBL S36 ,Top: JBL S36 (4), Subwoofer: 2 PSA S3000i and one PSA XS-30se
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post #56800 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 05:48 AM
 
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If that isn't exceptional customer service...I don't know what is.
I know right?!!! I mean most companies would just tell you to buy a new amplifier from them and not one would fix the amp for free and ship back to the customer at the company's expense. We should just start calling Tom John Wick. If anything the stories you hear have been watered down.

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post #56801 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 07:15 AM
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Just ordered my 2nd TV36 Ipal! Just like my first pup, the first NEEDS companionship.

JVC X550R /Panny UB820/GIK treatments
Elunevision 140" 2.35
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post #56802 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
the -3dB point doesn't have much to do with the woofers. It is more cabinet + DSP considerations.

Tom V.
Team Power.

Since the cabinet didn't change between the eminence drivers and B&C drivers is it all DSP then? What did raising the -3dB point by a few Hz accomplish?

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #56803 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 07:31 AM
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If that isn't exceptional customer service...I don't know what is.
Agreed. I think talking about the CS is important. That way, when people who are looking at buying an expensive sub (or two) and spending anywhere from $1K to $9K will know what they are getting themselves into. Because if something goes wrong with a large investment its nice to know it will be be quickly taken care of.

I'm used to Tom's great CS but to see that post and read how PSA will try hard to take care of a problem at no cost to the customer even if they have an expired warranty? That shocked me... that's Uber Level customer service right there.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - PSA MT110's Rear - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
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post #56804 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 07:43 AM
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Just ordered my 2nd TV36 Ipal! Just like my first pup, the first NEEDS companionship.
Hey, Kevin... I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I'm just curious... since you have all JTR speakers, what prompted or inspired you to choose PSA when it came to subwoofers, as JTR's reprutation is highly regarded in that space?

I ask, not to start any brand loyalty flaming as I also like JTR and considered them in the past as well, but opted out due to shipping costs and no dual opposed options. The funny thing is since I'm from Milwaukee, if I still lived there, I would've definitely drove up to Union Grove and bought one or two sealed offerings.
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post #56805 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 08:17 AM
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Hi Super. I've obviously never had 100% brand loyalty. There's too much great stuff out there when completing an entire HT system, especially when the ID companies came on the scene. Regarding subwoofers, I've had M&K, Earthquake, SVS, JTR, Reaction Audio/DIY and PSA. I did have a pair of JTR Orbit Shifters LFs. With the longer folded horn than the pro version, they have tremendous output capability and mid-bass but still didn't dig really low, at least in the room I had them in. Great subs no doubt. I had always kept up with PSA since owning SVS in the past and just continuing on the journey, wanted to try the low tuned Pro driver variant I had started to read about on the PSA thread. I decided to start with one TV36 Ipal. All I can say is with just an Audyssey cal and a few dB post-call bump(which is what I've done with all the previous subs), the PSAs give a ULF tactile response that none of the other subs have ever produced, while still reproducing the rest of the sub range with great impact and quality as well. Sitting in the MLP, I feel like my seat is gently lifted a few inches off of the ground and gently placed back when the PSA produces ULF....that's the best way I can describe it! lol


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Originally Posted by SuperFist View Post
Hey, Kevin... I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I'm just curious... since you have all JTR speakers, what prompted or inspired you to choose PSA when it came to subwoofers, as JTR's reprutation is highly regarded in that space?

I ask, not to start any brand loyalty flaming as I also like JTR and considered them in the past as well, but opted out due to shipping costs and no dual opposed options. The funny thing is since I'm from Milwaukee, if I still lived there, I would've definitely drove up to Union Grove and bought one or two sealed offerings.

JVC X550R /Panny UB820/GIK treatments
Elunevision 140" 2.35
Marantz AV8802a/Wyred4Sound 7-channel amp
Outlaw 5000/ 4 JBL 328Cs in ceiling/ 7.2.4 Atmos
JTR 3TX LCRs/Single8 HT-LP surrounds(4)/Dual PSA TV36 iPals
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post #56806 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The two subs would integrate very well together. email me the serial number and I can verify warranty.

We currently stock every component for every product we have ever sold. There may come a time when that is no longer feasible...especially due to space constraints. But I don't see that happening for a long time. Out of warranty I would suggest sending the amp back to us first. We can often repair it at no cost and ship it back to you on our dime.

Tom V.
Team Power.
Thanks tom. Greatly appreciate the help. I’m just amazed at the customer service PSA has to offer. I watched a review of the Monolith on YouTube and had thoughts of changing things up if I couldn’t match duals with my current 15V. I also was looking at HSU.

But, this comment right here just reminded me as to why exactly I chose to go for PSA in the first place. I’m doing whatever I can to stay with PSA due to the great products and having no concerns at all about ever getting help if I ever need it down the road.

Now just gotta decide how to make the 5hr drive to get a sub. You know you’re an enthusiast when this is even being considered....🙂

Speakers: Fronts- JBL 230, Center- JBL 235C, Surrounds: Fluance XLBP
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post #56807 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
Since the cabinet didn't change between the eminence drivers and B&C drivers is it all DSP then? What did raising the -3dB point by a few Hz accomplish?
Likely was changed for best overall performance and possibly to reduce potential vent noise.
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post #56808 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 10:31 AM
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...Sitting in the MLP, I feel like my seat is gently lifted a few inches off of the ground and gently placed back when the PSA produces ULF....that's the best way I can describe it! lol
Thank you for chronicling your subwoofer journey, brother. Your description of the seat lifting for ULF also kind of describes the feeling I have on my couch, affecting the bottom, back, front and even sides, depending on the frequency, with a good deal of force so ofttimes I feel like I already have tactile transducers. I really enjoy when it's natural like that... or rather "unnatural" depending on who you ask!
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post #56809 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 11:09 AM
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Likely was changed for best overall performance and possibly to reduce potential vent noise.

I have been toying around trying to create some port noise as that had been a complaint about the V18 subs before. I tried running straight 15Hz and 20Hz signals at very high levels through it and no sign of port noise. The sub was visibly moving quite a bit more than normal and no chuffing could be heard. The 20Hz created some door vibations. 15Hz there was nothing noticeable other than some straining noises from my front towers.

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #56810 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 11:37 AM
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I have been toying around trying to create some port noise as that had been a complaint about the V18 subs before. I tried running straight 15Hz and 20Hz signals at very high levels through it and no sign of port noise. The sub was visibly moving quite a bit more than normal and no chuffing could be heard. The 20Hz created some door vibations. 15Hz there was nothing noticeable other than some straining noises from my front towers.

That is good... I too never had vent noise issues with the V1801 I auditioned with music/movie content. I did get some around 15hz when I ran a REW sweep at MV-0, but I don't really judge a subs based on Test tones. With regular source material it performed great. I am just assuming with the new drivers the Neo's perform best with a -3db point a few hz above the port tune. Jeff did something similar to the JTR 1200XS...it has a 10hz port tune with a 12hz hpf to help with port noise. Either way if you get port noise from a vented sub all that means is you need to add another.
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post #56811 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Likely was changed for best overall performance and possibly to reduce potential vent noise.

I have been toying around trying to create some port noise as that had been a complaint about the V18 subs before. I tried running straight 15Hz and 20Hz signals at very high levels through it and no sign of port noise. The sub was visibly moving quite a bit more than normal and no chuffing could be heard. The 20Hz created some door vibations. 15Hz there was nothing noticeable other than some straining noises from my front towers.
If your drivers are moving a lot you’re probably not in chuffing territory. Air velocity should be highest around port tune and that is when the driver should be barely moving as it is the port that is producing the SPL.
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post #56812 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 06:17 PM
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I've mentioned that my dual V1812's have some port noise but I should point out that my subs were not placed optimally until I got REW up and running. I was pushing +12db on the subs with DEQ enabled and the room control knob maxed out. Under these circumstances I could hear port noise and some of the lower bass signals were sounding weak. I moved my subs about 2 feet further apart than they were originally to help smooth out my bass curve and this helped the situation. Mainly, I get a stronger low end sound which allowed me to turn the subs down to about +9db. Also, they are further away from the MLP and I don't need to max out the room control knob to achieve a flat response at the new sub location. My subs sound very nice now and I can't hear any port noise at the MLP in any of the content that I own. I listen at -6 to -10 db master volume.

That being said. They do have port noise when a strong 20hz signal is played back at times. The movie "IT 2" when Pennywise catches the firefly under the bleachers or Apocalypse Now when Kurtz says " The horror". It's minor at -8db master volume with a +9db bass boost but I can hear it if I'm within 6 feet of the sub and it only occurs for a second as the sound effect bottoms out. My main reason's for upgrading to the TV18 Ipal is for the lower port tune and it's ability to dig much deeper. I figure if the tuning point is around 12hz there won't be much content that I own that will stress the port and if it does, the TV18 will be better equipped to handle it since the sub box was designed and built around the Ipal and Neo drivers.

I've never heard the cabinets rattle or the driver make any noise and I've tried to push it to the point of chuffing but I can't get it to no matter what I do. The little bit of port noise it does have is minor but it really comes down to what you expect and where you place your subs as well as how high you like to push it. My gain is only 40% of the way up. I figure, in a larger room where the gain would need to be pushed much higher, these subs could run into some pretty serious port noise. I'm only in a 2400cuft room so lucky for me, I don't have to drive them very hard. The V1812 is a really nice sub, better than anything that I had owned previously but I was hoping for a little more down low with less noticeable port noise under pressure. That is why I've been driven to upgrade.

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post #56813 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 06:25 PM
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If your drivers are moving a lot you’re probably not in chuffing territory. Air velocity should be highest around port tune and that is when the driver should be barely moving as it is the port that is producing the SPL.

So how do I get there?

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #56814 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 06:45 PM
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So how do I get there?
Correct me if I'm wrong but...You want to make your sub chuff?
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post #56815 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 07:15 PM
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So how do I get there?
Exactly like I described. Get levels to where you get good visible cone excursion. Start with a 30hz sine wave and decrease by 0.5 hz at a time and watch cone movement as you decrease frequency. Once you reach port tune frequency the cone should appear totally still. Once you start decreasing the frequency further below that point the driver will start moving more and more the lower you go.

At the port tune frequency you’ll also notice the most air out of the ports. By running sine waves at high power you risk blowing your drivers so if you’re not sure what you’re doing it’s not worth it especially you’re just trying to make your ports chuff.

Edit: just looked at some of my models. Looks like with a proper HPF in place to protect a ported sub air velocity actually peaks a few hz below port tuning.

Last edited by djdanny; 05-31-2020 at 07:30 PM.
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post #56816 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 08:03 PM
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So how do I get there?
Why? Ideally you don't want to get there. What you should do since you have REW is do some compression testing instead of playing with steady state tones.

Start by taking a 10-200hz sweep around MV-20. Then increase the volume to -15 and take another sweep, then -10, -7, -4, -2, 0... Overlay and save the the measurements.

Now don't automatically assume you can just take measurements at these volumes. Look for signs of compression(areas in the response where the volume didn't increase linearly) after each measurement before going any louder. If you see compression then stop there, that is your max clean headroom capability.
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post #56817 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rhelliott2 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but...You want to make your sub chuff?

Correct. I want to figure out where/when it happens so I can determine the likelihood of it happening during anything I would listen to.

Front: Polk S55
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Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
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post #56818 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Why? Ideally you don't want to get there. What you should do since you have REW is do some compression testing instead of playing with steady state tones.

Start by taking a 10-200hz sweep around MV-20. Then increase the volume to -15 and take another sweep, then -10, -7, -4, -2, 0... Overlay and save the the measurements.

Now don't automatically assume you can just take measurements at these volumes. Look for signs of compression(areas in the response where the volume didn't increase linearly) after each measurement before going any louder. If you see compression then stop there, that is your max clean headroom capability.

I'm really just interested in finding where the port chuffing occurs not because that is the limit of the sub but because I haven't heard it yet and would like to figure out what the chances are that it will happen during normal content.


If I go about using your method, would it be best to place the UMIK about 3' in front of the sub for nearfield measurements or where would I place the UMIK?

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
AVR: Denon AVR-X3500H
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post #56819 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 09:42 PM
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Correct. I want to figure out where/when it happens so I can determine the likelihood of it happening during anything I would listen to.
That's easy Play EOT at reference lol
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post #56820 of 57614 Old 05-31-2020, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
I'm really just interested in finding where the port chuffing occurs not because that is the limit of the sub but because I haven't heard it yet and would like to figure out what the chances are that it will happen during normal content.


If I go about using your method, would it be best to place the UMIK about 3' in front of the sub for nearfield measurements or where would I place the UMIK?

Measure from your main listening position as you would normally sit. Even if present from a couple feet away, port noise shouldn’t typically be audible from the MLP unless you’re overdriving the sub or picking content to induce chuffing. I’ve done both with different subs, but if you’re mostly a music person then no worries.

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