Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1896 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #56851 of 57533 Old 06-02-2020, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rhelliott2 View Post
Congratulations! They will make an awesome pair!
Thanks! I can’t wait to rewatch some of my favorite bass movies!
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post #56852 of 57533 Old 06-02-2020, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by zora View Post
Me likey👍 Can’t wait for the pair to come.
Yeah, these 3 are the same sub(tv18ipal) same DSP. Lite blue is port facing the mic, mid is both woofer and port equidistant, top curve is the sub standing up. When you're measuring a sub outside and it has multiple baffles with something producing output(woofer, pr, port, whatever) it is interesting to see how this all changes. The rule of thumb is to use the "equidistant" curve. And in ideal conditions use a longer distance to microphone. Spacing out 10m if possible. But so far, as Ohio tends to be in spring, any day that is warm enough and dry...has been WINDY. But the 2m equidistant isn't going to change much anyway. What would change is the normal(standing up with woofer facing mic)...that would look more and more like the equidistant curve the further away the mic is.

This is a little flatter than I intended initially but it sounded really good so I'm running with it. I need one more day outside for ultra fine tuning. But I suspect something around -6dB at 15hz and maybe -9dB at 12hz will be the final curve. So a bit more extended than primary competition if that's what anyone is focused upon. Being a little better/worse in an outside FR -6dB point isn't anything I would base a purchase decision on though.

I'm also experimenting with slight fine tuning to the DSP cell(s) in the *room size control* signal chain a little to really optimize the way the control works with this specific sub design(tv18ipal and tv1812 which both share nearly identical FR curves).

I know this is all taking a few more days than hoped(as far as initial shipments) but I promise you guys, this isn't a delay I take lightly. I mean, it's 98% now and no one would complain about the way it performs..at all. But, if I can get it to 99.9%(nothing is ever perfect )...with just a few more 16 hour days...bear with me.

By Friday/Monday we should have 30(ish) cabinets pre built, woofer installed, AND amps built too. All we'll need to do is program the amps, verify that sequence, install the amps, runs our usual variety of QC checks/tones/sweeps and box. So shipping the first 30(ish) may only take us 2 days with everything humming.

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post #56853 of 57533 Old 06-02-2020, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rhelliott2 View Post
IIRC it had a Passive radiator.
Nah, that is a huge 21ipal based sub that sound absolutely amazing but I've been too lazy about trying to source a vendor for the PRs. See attached.

The little s2412 is just a basic dual opposed 12 inch with our 960w ICE. Target FR is the same as the single 12 version(see attached).

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post #56854 of 57533 Old 06-02-2020, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Yeah, these 3 are the same sub(tv18ipal) same DSP. Lite blue is port facing the mic, mid is both woofer and port equidistant, top curve is the sub standing up. When you're measuring a sub outside and it has multiple baffles with something producing output(woofer, pr, port, whatever) it is interesting to see how this all changes. The rule of thumb is to use the "equidistant" curve. And in ideal conditions use a longer distance to microphone. Spacing out 10m if possible. But so far, as Ohio tends to be in spring, any day that is warm enough and dry...has been WINDY. But the 2m equidistant isn't going to change much anyway. What would change is the normal(standing up with woofer facing mic)...that would look more and more like the equidistant curve the further away the mic is.

This is a little flatter than I intended initially but it sounded really good so I'm running with it. I need one more day outside for ultra fine tuning. But I suspect something around -6dB at 15hz and maybe -9dB at 12hz will be the final curve. So a bit more extended than primary competition if that's what anyone is focused upon. Being a little better/worse in an outside FR -6dB point isn't anything I would base a purchase decision on though.

I'm also experimenting with slight fine tuning to the DSP cell(s) in the *room size control* signal chain a little to really optimize the way the control works with this specific sub design(tv18ipal and tv1812 which both share nearly identical FR curves).

I know this is all taking a few more days than hoped(as far as initial shipments) but I promise you guys, this isn't a delay I take lightly. I mean, it's 98% now and no one would complain about the way it performs..at all. But, if I can get it to 99.9%(nothing is ever perfect )...with just a few more 16 hour days...bear with me.

By Friday/Monday we should have 30(ish) cabinets pre built, woofer installed, AND amps built too. All we'll need to do is program the amps, verify that sequence, install the amps, runs our usual variety of QC checks/tones/sweeps and box. So shipping the first 30(ish) may only take us 2 days with everything humming.

Tom V.
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The wait can be a bit agonizing at times but I have to say that it makes me very happy to see this information. The driven and inspired perfectionism to get the extra 1% and take full advantage of the hardware combo that the TV18 utilizes is what separates ID companies from the rest and makes the wait worthwhile. It's good to see that your eye is on the competition and trying to match or surpass the competition even if it's by a small amount is a great thing to see as a customer. Thanks for all of your hard work Tom. I can't wait to see how the TV18 bass curve responds to my room, it looks very promising.

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post #56855 of 57533 Old 06-03-2020, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
The wait can be a bit agonizing at times but I have to say that it makes me very happy to see this information. The driven and inspired perfectionism to get the extra 1% and take full advantage of the hardware combo that the TV18 utilizes is what separates ID companies from the rest and makes the wait worthwhile. It's good to see that your eye is on the competition and trying to match or surpass the competition even if it's by a small amount is a great thing to see as a customer. Thanks for all of your hard work Tom. I can't wait to see how the TV18 bass curve responds to my room, it looks very promising.
I know what all the guys waiting for the TV18 are going through. Last year, those of us waiting for the TV36 were going through the same thing as Tom made his final adjustments. The release of the TV36 was delayed a number of days as Tom obsessed on the last final nuances. It's nice to see such attention to detail, especially when there are so many poorly made products out there. So, while the wait can be a bit agonizing, trust me... it will be worth it.

Hang in their guys, you'll soon be smiling.

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post #56856 of 57533 Old 06-03-2020, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
This is a little flatter than I intended initially but it sounded really good so I'm running with it. I need one more day outside for ultra fine tuning. But I suspect something around -6dB at 15hz and maybe -9dB at 12hz will be the final curve. So a bit more extended than primary competition if that's what anyone is focused upon. Being a little better/worse in an outside FR -6dB point isn't anything I would base a purchase decision on though.

Dumb question but this comment is about the TV18 series subs, correct?
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post #56857 of 57533 Old 06-03-2020, 08:05 AM
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^ Yes

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post #56858 of 57533 Old 06-03-2020, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
^ Yes

So it is sounding like TV1812 and TV18 Ipal will have a -3dB point around 18Hz?

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post #56859 of 57533 Old 06-03-2020, 08:46 AM
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So it is sounding like TV1812 and TV18 Ipal will have a -3dB point around 18Hz?
In an overly simplistic way of looking at the FR curves measured outside? Yes. But that is a very poor way of trying to decipher these graphs. Looking at say 100hz at the upper limit and then working backwards from there...the FR will have a purposely designed in *slight* downward tilt. Remove that tilt and the -3dB might be 12-14hz. look at the fv18 curves on db...strictly going by a "-3dB" point it is about 30-35hz in its *deepest* extension setting. 30-35hz? But that's not what anyone should be looking at of course..

With regards to expected in room extension the most important part of these graphs will be <30hz. Specifically how 30hz compares to 25hz, then how they both compare to 20hz, then how those three comare to 15hz, and then finally(when applicable) 10hz. Look at the overall shaping.

We drop about 1dB from 30hz to 20hz, than another dB from 20hz to 15hz. Then at 14hz(ish) it begins a more pronounced rolloff. So, again, excluding the very slight (purposely designed in) tilt from 30-100hz...use 30hz as "nominal". From 30hz, the -3 point is 13-14hz? This also works for the fv18...putting the -3dB point at 15hz.

And all of the above is OUTSIDE too. We all need to keep that in mind. Overlay the pressure vessel effect from even a LARGE room and the "-3dB" point for either sub I described above could be 10hz or even below.


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post #56860 of 57533 Old 06-03-2020, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
In an overly simplistic way of looking at the FR curves measured outside? Yes. But that is a very poor way of trying to decipher these graphs. Looking at say 100hz at the upper limit and then working backwards from there...the FR will have a purposely designed in *slight* downward tilt. Remove that tilt and the -3dB might be 12-14hz. look at the fv18 curves on db...strictly going by a "-3dB" point it is about 30-35hz in its *deepest* extension setting. 30-35hz? But that's not what anyone should be looking at of course..

The curve does look very similar to the FV18 other than I think the TV18 appears to be a bit more linear in the overall slope from upper frequencies to lower frequencies.


What is the advantage or purpose of the slightly negative tilt going down in frequency? It seems common for the low tuned subs.

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post #56861 of 57533 Old 06-03-2020, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
The curve does look very similar to the FV18 other than I think the TV18 appears to be a bit more linear in the overall slope from upper frequencies to lower frequencies.


What is the advantage or purpose of the slightly negative tilt going down in frequency? It seems common for the low tuned subs.
Yeah, it can be difficult to look at outside stuff and then attempt to correlate that to what we will hear in a room. Most only have anecdotal testimonials for the latter although we are seeing an increasing number of valid user measurements too. I have seen subs on databass with a "-3dB" point of 50hz, or even higher...that would absolutely offer strong bass in room down to 20hz or even below. Some of the confusion about all of this is what we usually think of when discussing a "-3dB point". In nearly all speakers and many subwoofers, the -3dB point is really where the response is going to begin to rolloff so rapidly that we couldn't expect performance much below that frequency even "in room". But that doesn't really apply to many subs. Especially with modern highly advanced DSP capabilities in nearly all quality products these days. I posted the TV36 FR graphs previously and those look similar too(in regards to the 30-100hz titl). Same with the TV42 graphs I posted. I'm going to re-do all product FR and put them all in a dedicated thread in our forum here sometime in June.

There can be a wide variety of reasons why a certain subwoofer has a certain shape to its frequency response. Some are just bad. Look at the elemental design sub on databass. You have, what appears to be, a group of kids who have no experience with anything related to home audio---bolting a big woofer to a big box and calling it a day. But hey, they sold a lot of subs from what I remember

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post #56862 of 57533 Old 06-03-2020, 10:02 AM
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Nah, that is a huge 21ipal based sub that sound absolutely amazing but I've been too lazy about trying to source a vendor for the PRs. See attached.

Tom V.
Team Power.[/QUOTE]

Tom,
You may not have seen my post several pages back wishing for quad TV21 Ipals. I figured it was unlikely to see a 21 Ipal by itself due to its low ohm rating requiring an extremely stout amp. What are the chances of a PSA sub with a single 21 Ipal?
Tim
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post #56863 of 57533 Old 06-03-2020, 01:47 PM
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Pulled the trigger on a pair of S18ipals to replace my S3600 with the UK distributor.
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post #56864 of 57533 Old 06-04-2020, 01:35 PM
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Has anyone gone from dual opposed sealed to low tuned ported? I’d like to hear their impressions.
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post #56865 of 57533 Old 06-04-2020, 01:39 PM
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Has anyone gone from dual opposed sealed to low tuned ported? I’d like to hear their impressions.
I think there are one or two around here that have.

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post #56866 of 57533 Old 06-04-2020, 02:40 PM
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Has anyone gone from dual opposed sealed to low tuned ported? I’d like to hear their impressions.
I did. But I don't think I'm your typical owner, so maybe I shouldn't comment.

I went from dual T-18s (each 15' from MLP) and dual S3000s (each 7' from MLP) to dual TV42s (both about 6" behind the seating).

My impression? O...M...F...G!!!!!!

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post #56867 of 57533 Old 06-04-2020, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dockside HT View Post
Nah, that is a huge 21ipal based sub that sound absolutely amazing but I've been too lazy about trying to source a vendor for the PRs. See attached.

Tom V.
Team Power.
Tom,
You may not have seen my post several pages back wishing for quad TV21 Ipals. I figured it was unlikely to see a 21 Ipal by itself due to its low ohm rating requiring an extremely stout amp. What are the chances of a PSA sub with a single 21 Ipal?
Tim[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I apologize for missing so many posts. I'll think "hey, I have 5 minutes time to go catch up on avs!" And then I look and there's like 5 PAGES of stuff since 1-2 days ago.

Anyway, I have a couple designs with single 21ipal 95% done. All the hard stuff really, just a matter of finalizing the DSP for production if/when that time comes---that won't be anytime soon. One of them is the big PR sub too so I'll need to find someone that can handle doing 100-200 PR MOQs. There's not a whole lot out there..

I'm more focused on a couple of non Ipal 21 inch designs I have been working on to be honest. These require some specific customization in Italy though. So we're a couple months out from even knowing if the ideas are viable. And then from there, it's testing and measuring. Then maybe it works splendidly, maybe not so much.

It's so boring around here lately though. Nothing much going on...

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post #56868 of 57533 Old 06-04-2020, 02:58 PM
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I am just keeping my fingers crossed for some in ceiling PSA Atmos speakers that way all my HT speakers and subs would be PSA.
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post #56869 of 57533 Old 06-04-2020, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Has anyone gone from dual opposed sealed to low tuned ported? I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;d like to hear their impressions.
I did. But I don't think I'm your typical owner, so maybe I shouldn't comment. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I went from dual T-18s (each 15' from MLP) and dual S3000s (each 7' from MLP) to dual TV42s (both about 6" behind the seating).

My impression? O...M...F...G!!!!!! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]
Yeah that’s a bit more than me!&#x1f601;
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post #56870 of 57533 Old 06-04-2020, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Has anyone gone from dual opposed sealed to low tuned ported? I’d like to hear their impressions.
I went from dual XS-30SE in the front of the room and dual S1800 in the rear corners to dual TV-36 in the front corners. I was honestly a bit nervous moving to ported but don't regret it one bit!
They are in a basement on concrete and the TR is much more than I expected. My chairs at times feel as though someone is punching the backs of them during certain bass scenes. Also had to put sticky felt pads on the door jambs to stop them from rattling.
If your thinking of moving to any of the low tuned subs, I don't think you'll regret it at all.
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post #56871 of 57533 Old 06-04-2020, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Tom,
You may not have seen my post several pages back wishing for quad TV21 Ipals. I figured it was unlikely to see a 21 Ipal by itself due to its low ohm rating requiring an extremely stout amp. What are the chances of a PSA sub with a single 21 Ipal?
Tim
Yeah, I apologize for missing so many posts. I'll think "hey, I have 5 minutes time to go catch up on avs!" And then I look and there's like 5 PAGES of stuff since 1-2 days ago.

Anyway, I have a couple designs with single 21ipal 95% done. All the hard stuff really, just a matter of finalizing the DSP for production if/when that time comes---that won't be anytime soon. One of them is the big PR sub too so I'll need to find someone that can handle doing 100-200 PR MOQs. There's not a whole lot out there..

I'm more focused on a couple of non Ipal 21 inch designs I have been working on to be honest. These require some specific customization in Italy though. So we're a couple months out from even knowing if the ideas are viable. And then from there, it's testing and measuring. Then maybe it works splendidly, maybe not so much.

It's so boring around here lately though. Nothing much going on...

Tom V.
Team Power.[/QUOTE]



Thanks for responding Tom, especially because it was the answer I was hoping for. Don't apologize for having trouble keeping up with this thread. We know you're hard at work; time is precious and folks are waiting on orders and new designs from the subhuman genius lab PSA has grown into. When the world is THIS crazy it's nice to have something to look forward to... like quad 21"s for the corners.
Tim
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post #56872 of 57533 Old 06-05-2020, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
The wait can be a bit agonizing at times but I have to say that it makes me very happy to see this information. The driven and inspired perfectionism to get the extra 1% and take full advantage of the hardware combo that the TV18 utilizes is what separates ID companies from the rest and makes the wait worthwhile. It's good to see that your eye is on the competition and trying to match or surpass the competition even if it's by a small amount is a great thing to see as a customer. Thanks for all of your hard work Tom. I can't wait to see how the TV18 bass curve responds to my room, it looks very promising.
I appreciate it the-sextein.

All of this frequency shaping can take a long time. There are a few things casual eyes should key on.

* You want to see a relatively flat shape above 30hz or so. A slight downward tilt is acceptable and often preferable. You want to see a good "tilt" at database? Check the fv18 or our old xv30. You want to see a junk FR at databass? Check the eD sub. When to tilt or not to tilt? That's a long discussion and to be frank some of that information may be the result of thousands of hours of outside data vs. inside listening over decades. For every 100 hour week we put in, doing all sorts of mundane tasks, those hours we can fire up the measurement rig(s) with a new product make it all worthwhile.

20 years ago ALL I worried about was making it look pretty outside. I didn't know any better.(see attached on what a typical outside day was like for me). I would end up with hundreds of graphs. Then I would take all the subs inside and put them in my systems one at a time. Some of the outside-to-inside correlations were easy to identify. Some, not so much. In fact, after 20 years(and thousands of hours), there are still things to learn.



* <30hz it gets debatable. You could ask 10 different engineers who do final shaping and you may get 10 different answers. Some of the big boys(who sell more in a week than a tiny dot of a company like psa sells all year) will prioritize system fail safes. Joe somebody walks into Nebraska furniture mart and grabs a coffee table, comb, 3 musketeers bar, ballpoint pen, bottle of old harper, flashlight batteries, 16 inch subwoofer, and some beef jerky? THAT guy is going to go home, plug it all in, crank all the knobs, and pop in whatever wonderful movie hollywood has cranked out this week with 10hz bass...fast and the furriest 10?

It is a conundrum. With today's advanced DSP we can do a "ruler flat" to whatever (measured outside) if we wanted. I mean, with the TV18 series...10hz could easily be the -3dB point. And a lot of casual observers would oooh and ahhh over that. It would be brought up in every "what to buy thread". It would absolutely lead to a influx of sales. BUT---this really isn't what is going to sound best.

Sat/Sun/Monday will all be good weather days here so everything will be 100% finalized barring a super eruption. I'll post the final curves in easy to read formats in our TV18 thread. If I'm feeling frisky I'll post a wide variety of graphs showing various orientations, NF to port, NF to woof, different phases of development...we'll see. I just got 8 hours of sleep(can't remember the last time THAT happened) and I'm feeling like a whippersnapper. But by monday I might be like "Ghostbusters! Whadayay want??!!!

Tom V.
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post #56873 of 57533 Old 06-05-2020, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apcreek View Post
Pulled the trigger on a pair of S18ipals to replace my S3600 with the UK distributor.
Appreciate it. We just got 4 orders from various distributors so, for whatever reason, June seems to be a hot month..

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post #56874 of 57533 Old 06-05-2020, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by flyinrazrback View Post
I am just keeping my fingers crossed for some in ceiling PSA Atmos speakers that way all my HT speakers and subs would be PSA.
Never say never but...that's not happening any time soon.

New designs, particular new speaker designs are difficult to project into the marketplace. Atmos specifically, just about everyone gets everything from china. We see plenty of good value available from other brands already. doing it with higher end stuff like B&C increases the cost dramatically. See attached. I have been playing around with a variety of small co-ax for a while now. BUT, ONE co-ax costs me WAY more than the entire speaker would cost me sourcing it all from china. So what we end up with...is a bunch of $100-150 speakers already available that work fine. Or, a PSA option that, okay, is a little better, but cost $500? I'm not comfortable pursuing that.

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post #56875 of 57533 Old 06-05-2020, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Tom V.
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Tom,

Do the B&C drivers "break-in" at all? I know most would say speakers don't break in. It is your mind that adjusts. And that is probably what it is but the Neo driver in my V1812 has really seemed to open up and "warm" up over the last week. Out of the box the cone felt super stiff to the touch but now it seems just a slight bit more softer.

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post #56876 of 57533 Old 06-05-2020, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dockside HT View Post
Yeah, I apologize for missing so many posts. I'll think "hey, I have 5 minutes time to go catch up on avs!" And then I look and there's like 5 PAGES of stuff since 1-2 days ago.

Anyway, I have a couple designs with single 21ipal 95% done. All the hard stuff really, just a matter of finalizing the DSP for production if/when that time comes---that won't be anytime soon. One of them is the big PR sub too so I'll need to find someone that can handle doing 100-200 PR MOQs. There's not a whole lot out there..

I'm more focused on a couple of non Ipal 21 inch designs I have been working on to be honest. These require some specific customization in Italy though. So we're a couple months out from even knowing if the ideas are viable. And then from there, it's testing and measuring. Then maybe it works splendidly, maybe not so much.

It's so boring around here lately though. Nothing much going on...

Tom V.
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Thanks for responding Tom, especially because it was the answer I was hoping for.[/QUOTE]


4 separate 21 inch subs? Are you thinking (low tune) ported or sealed? I don't want to pretend the PR sub will be ready any time soon. I think funk has a few affordable 21 based subs now too?

Tom V.
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post #56877 of 57533 Old 06-05-2020, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
Tom,

Do the B&C drivers "break-in" at all? I know most would say speakers don't break in. It is your mind that adjusts. And that is probably what it is but the Neo driver in my V1812 has really seemed to open up and "warm" up over the last week. Out of the box the cone felt super stiff to the touch but now it seems just a slight bit more softer.
Anything with a suspension will break in to some degree. Most of the debate centers around things like audibility---especially in smaller stuff. We run things pretty hard here, but not for long duration, during QC. But in home, running hard for a week or so, that will probably take care of any further softening. Will it change how it "sounds"? Possibly. But that would depend a bit on several factors. But even in the most extreme(audible) cases I wouldn't describe it as a dramatic change, at all. If someone emailed me and said " I got your sub today and it sound like junk!". I wouldn't try to convince them break-in will warm their hearts.. I'd focus on placement, setup, calibration, stuff like that.

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post #56878 of 57533 Old 06-05-2020, 12:34 PM
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I think it's more a case of your ears adjusting to Neo drivers.
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post #56879 of 57533 Old 06-05-2020, 03:49 PM
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I got my TV3612 in today! I can’t wait to get it setup! I’m not looking forward to getting it upstairs and placed in position in my HT, lol.

Routh Family Theater - My Dedicated Home Theater Build - 7.2.4 Atmos Setup
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post #56880 of 57533 Old 06-05-2020, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Riddle View Post
I got my TV3612 in today! I can&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t wait to get it setup! I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;m not looking forward to getting it upstairs and placed in position in my HT, lol.
Sweet, bet your a tad excited !

I look forward to hearing your thoughts ! &#x1f91f;
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