Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 572 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17131 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Interesting......that they chose SEALED!
Yeah, its nice to actually see a real comparison instead of just going by peoples opinion.
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post #17132 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
Yeah, its nice to actually see a real comparison instead of just going by peoples opinion.
Only problem is, it makes me want the S3000i even more now!
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post #17133 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 02:29 PM
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On a side note, WOW: http://www.strata-gee.com/after-figh...ne-businesses/

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post #17134 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 02:45 PM
 
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Tom. How would a s3000i play with a xs30?
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post #17135 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Tom. How would a s3000i play with a xs30?
Why don't you find out.

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post #17136 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Pretty amazing - but as the article notes - SONY has been dropping beaucoup $$$ for many years. I remember when a Trinitron image was the best thing around & I still have a SONY XBR9 that puts out an excellent picture, but they have been getting their butts kicked by the likes of Samsung, Panasonic, LG, Apple, etc. for a long time. Just think of the days when the Walkman was a dominant product and the SONY name alone was good enough to sell just about any product they released.
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post #17137 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 03:19 PM
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When I got my first XS30SE I was comparing it to my old Mirage BPS400 and I thought the Mirage played louder and the XS30SE pressurized the room alot more, what I quickly learned was that the XS30SE was so much CLEANER and the Mirage was over dramatic.
Unless you run REW you really will not know whats going on.

How do you use REW so see how CLEAN your sub is playing at vs another sub?
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post #17138 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 03:48 PM
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I had a new Yamaha receiver where on sub would work and one would not. I would not work with both subs hooked up even when reversed. The only solution was a Y cable.
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post #17139 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Tom. How would a s3000i play with a xs30?
I actually asked Tom Earlier how a s1500 would pair with an xs30se and he said great. Only real concern would be deep bass roll off could cause cancellation since they roll off at different Hz..


So i assume pretty much the same with an s3000i..

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post #17140 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank D View Post
How do you use REW so see how CLEAN your sub is playing at vs another sub?

Well the REW reference was more towards to see how each sub is interacting with the room, his old sub may have a 15-30db spike in the upper FR ( caused by his room) which would result in the old sub sounding louder in the upper ranged then the XS15SE. Sorry for the confusion.

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post #17141 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Tom. How would a s3000i play with a xs30?
Better off adding a XS30SE to join your 2 XS30"S.

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post #17142 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 06:02 PM
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@Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez I must say that my experience was not too dissimilar from yours, your situation has crystalized my problem more in my brain, I had somewhat similar experience but in my case I switched from non-SE XS15 to XS15se and while all LFE tracks got louder and better on movies, extension improved for sure, but upper-bass and mid bass punch all but disappeared for me with SE in the same exact location. I have irritated few XS15se owners with my SE comments on this thread, but pretty much many owners were able to get their XS15se equalized with the home curve with REW, and either MiniDSP or receiver's advanced DSP but you do need to learn to use REW and MiniDSP to get rid of the issues and get PSA XS15se sound the best. This is just a fact, room is by far more important factor in bass than the the sub. Pretty much any sub in $500+ territory can be positioned for good FR and then equalized to the good bass, but not by ear. I was lucky and set my non-SE by ear to the perfect bass for music, it fact it was phenomenally accurate and tight in the upper bass and mid bass, and my primitive thinking was I would just do SE upgrade and it will get better, but in the same location same gear and level set, to get upper bass and mid bass to play I had to increase the gain on XS15se to hear above 30Hz but that would cause below 30Hz to start to rumble. Crawl did not solve it, 1/4 wavelength repositioning did not help. Now I just need to buy UMIK, MiniDSP and learn to equalize the sub. This is not a trivial thing to do even for one sub, for two it becomes science, but there is no other way. Acoustical physics laws are not bendable I have started reading on REW and MiniDSP, it is doable but curve is there even for computer engineer.
Hope some folks will help to do it right over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
Hi guys, I received my XS15se yesterday but is not performing as expected, I am replacing a Polk 505 and while the XS goes deeper for sure it is lacking in the mid and upper bass, on a side by side comparison for music the polk sound better and louder. I tried the XS15 in different locations and ran Audessey every time but still I feel than something is missing.

With movies the XS15se sound better and it wins hands down but with music is a different history... If I play a blu-ray concert and connect both subs and then power on/off the XS15 I dont even notice it presence but if I do the same with the polk I immediately notice the lack in the mid/upper bass.

Any ideas how to solve it? I really dont think the polk is superior on any way the XS15 is a complete different league but in a side to side comparison it sounded better and louder.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

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post #17143 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 06:56 PM
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^^^ agree completely with all of the above. There is a member who just switched from a Submersive to an FV15HP and he said it sounds just as good as the Submersive. Actually he said the sound between the two is indistinguishable.
And there was a member that went from a FV15HP to a SubM and said it was a significant upgrade. Goes to show how subjective opinions are.
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post #17144 of 52321 Old 02-21-2015, 08:21 PM
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Finally got around to watching Star Trek Into Darkness, good movie and great sound. When the movie was over my Oldest son looked at me and said, "Dad, the couch was shaking and moving, is that because you added another square box".

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post #17145 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 04:47 AM
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Finally got around to watching Star Trek Into Darkness, good movie and great sound. When the movie was over my Oldest son looked at me and said, "Dad, the couch was shaking and moving, is that because you added another square box".
Victory!
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post #17146 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 07:21 AM
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I wonder how hard it would be to tell the difference between DUAL S3000's and DUAL S3000i's?
If it's just a little more output, I'm guessing no difference. Wonder if there is a difference in SOUND?

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post #17147 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 07:39 AM
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Hi all,

I have seen some discussion about the XS15se and its "mid / upper bass performance".

This can largely be defined by the full range response and the CEA-2010 capabilities.

See attached for the full range FR. +/- 2 from 35-300hz.

CEA-2010 from 40hz to 100hz averaged is 125-126dB.

To put that in perspective, the output is similar to the PB13Ultra in max output mode(all ports open)

The XS15se has excellent mid/upper bass performance by *any* standard. Of course optimizing the XS15se into the room environment and integrating it with the rest of the system is always going to play a large role in it's ultimate performance.

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post #17148 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
I wonder how hard it would be to tell the difference between DUAL S3000's and DUAL S3000i's?
If it's just a little more output, I'm guessing no difference. Wonder if there is a difference in SOUND?
The sound of a subwoofer is going to be 95% its FR, how the FR changes with volume, and audible distortions. In this case, the two models will be practically identical in "sound" until you approach the limits of the S3000. At that point the S3000i will have a little left in the tank. Overall, VERY similar.

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post #17149 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by xFreshEntrailsX View Post
I actually asked Tom Earlier how a s1500 would pair with an xs30se and he said great. Only real concern would be deep bass roll off could cause cancellation since they roll off at different Hz..


So i assume pretty much the same with an s3000i..
The roll offs won't be significantly different and the ICE powered model's "room size" control will allow you to dial in a nearly identical FR. Unit to unit cancellation shouldn't be a big concern. The drawback to this is you will use the room size control to optimize unit 2 to unit 1....instead of 1+2 to the room itself(if you had two ICE powered units). The larger the room, the less of an issue this is though as the room size control becomes more useful as the room environment shrinks.


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post #17150 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 08:11 AM
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Hi Brian,

If they just suddenly started making noises 99% of the time this indicates noise upstream or in the gain structure. Something clipping before/after the miniDSP for example.

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post #17151 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 08:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi Brian,

If they just suddenly started making noises 99% of the time this indicates noise upstream or in the gain structure. Something clipping before/after the miniDSP for example.

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Power Sound Audio
Ok. I'm going to ditch the minidsp. More trouble than it's worth


Ok took it out. Seems to be the culprit. Not sure I understand why it happens all of a sudden.
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post #17152 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The roll offs won't be significantly different and the ICE powered model's "room size" control will allow you to dial in a nearly identical FR. Unit to unit cancellation shouldn't be a big concern. The drawback to this is you will use the room size control to optimize unit 2 to unit 1....instead of 1+2 to the room itself(if you had two ICE powered units). The larger the room, the less of an issue this is though as the room size control becomes more useful as the room environment shrinks.


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Tom, how exactly do the room size controls work? Is the center of the dial "neutral" so that it has a natural response and turning it towards "small" reduces the low end and turning it towards "large" increases the low end?
Also, does the control work differently on the sealed vs ported models?

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post #17153 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The sound of a subwoofer is going to be 95% its FR, how the FR changes with volume, and audible distortions. In this case, the two models will be practically identical in "sound" until you approach the limits of the S3000. At that point the S3000i will have a little left in the tank. Overall, VERY similar.

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Power Sound Audio
So unless I am overdriving Dual S3000's, there would be no reason to go for Dual S3000i's?

Other than bragging rights of course!
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post #17154 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Tom, how exactly do the room size controls work? Is the center of the dial "neutral" so that it has a natural response and turning it towards "small" reduces the low end and turning it towards "large" increases the low end?
Also, does the control work differently on the sealed vs ported models?

LARGE on the dial is no change to the FR. The more you adjust the dial to SMALL the steeper the (anechoic) deep bass rolloff becomes. The control will work in the same way for all of our products.

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post #17155 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
So unless I am overdriving Dual S3000's, there would be no reason to go for Dual S3000i's?

Other than bragging rights of course!
True. But that can apply to every subwoofer performance level. If you aren't over driving a single XS15se, no need for dual T-18s..

I do agree with you though, it really is a matter of finding the least expensive option that will meet/exceed your target performance metrics.

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post #17156 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
LARGE on the dial is no change to the FR. The more you adjust the dial to SMALL the steeper the (anechoic) deep bass rolloff becomes. The control will work in the same way for all of our products.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
So it only attenuates the low bass, NOT boosts it correct?

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post #17157 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
True. But that can apply to every subwoofer performance level. If you aren't over driving a single XS15se, no need for dual T-18s..

I do agree with you though, it really is a matter of finding the least expensive option that will meet/exceed your target performance metrics.

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Power Sound Audio
Well I really like the dual opposed sealed models so it will probably end up being determined by when and how much the price increases on the S3000i. Just went over my budget plans for paying off my receiver and it looks like I will be able to buy my first sub in September. Then 6 months later purchase a second!

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post #17158 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 09:52 AM
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So it only attenuates the low bass, NOT boosts it correct?
Actually we can custom code the DSP to do whatever we want. But you are correct, the room size control will be cut only.

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post #17159 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 09:56 AM
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Well I really like the dual opposed sealed models so it will probably end up being determined by when and how much the price increases on the S3000i. Just went over my budget plans for paying off my receiver and it looks like I will be able to buy my first sub in September. Then 6 months later purchase a second!

Really the best value for most scenarios would be the S3000 or even the XS30se. The S3000i is more for the enthusiast who can't sleep at night unless they know they have the latest/greatest last drop of performance in their system. Even if getting there isn't the very best price/performance ratio..

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post #17160 of 52321 Old 02-22-2015, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Really the best value for most scenarios would be the S3000 or even the XS30se. The S3000i is more for the enthusiast who can't sleep at night unless they know they have the latest/greatest last drop of performance in their system. Even if getting there isn't the very best price/performance ratio..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I'm sure that doesn't apply to anyone here.
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