Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 600 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17971 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
I'm starting to wish I bought the Marantz... anybody help me out with these:

I re-ran MCACC several times. With one sub off (and the other sub on and connected to miniDSP but with filters bypassed) and the gain control knob at about 2:30 o'clockish it was coming in at -0.5db. On my XV15 it had been coming in at -6db at the same gain control position. Should I put the gain control at 3 o'clock or even 4 o'clock to get MCACC to put it more in the negative?
Yes, turn up the gain on the sub until you can get MCACC to set the sub trim around -6 to -8db.

The MiniDSP will cut your output voltage a bit and this causes you to use a higher sub gain setting. Nothing to worry about, just the nature of the beast.

Why are you running MCACC with only one sub running??


Quote:
I noticed that MCACC will equalize the sub only when I select "all channel adjust" versus "symmetry"... I know that a lot of folks here are Audessey so I'm not sure what the equivalent would be. Basically the symmetry equalizes the fronts to match and the rears to match (it does not touch the sub though) and the all channel adjust individually equalizes all channels including the sub. So what should I do? Should I let MCACC adjust each channel (including the sub) or should I run MCACC in "symmetry" and then let REW coupled with the miniDSP equalize the sub?
I would use the one that EQs the sub and all channels individually....that's how Audyssey does it. Then add the MiniDSP post-calibration.

There are benefits to EQing pre-cal and post-cal. You have to decide for yourself which way you want to go.

The Symmetry setting doesn't sound like it's trying to EQ all channels to have the best timbre match (fronts separate from rears). I want all the speakers to have the same sound...not the front sound the same and the rears sound different.
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post #17972 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

My guess would be that you now have "Double Large Room Mode".

Running Audyssey with it set to "Small Room" in a large-ish room, Audyssey will add some boost to the low end. Then setting it to "Large Room Mode" you are essentially double-boosting the low end. Could cause issues with headroom at higher volume levels, but if you aren't hearing any distortion you should be fine.
So far nothing but positive results!
My concern was if it might be considered a no no sort of like variable tuning subs that warn against all ports open AND max extension mode. I may have that wrong but you know what I mean.

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post #17973 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Sorry, no I don't have anything like REW. My living room is VERY open! Vaulted ceiling, maybe 14' peak. Room is 17.5'W x 15'D. Sub is 10.5' from MLP just inside of my right front speaker. Room is open to foyer, kitchen, and dining room.

Audyssey set sub to -3 with room size set to small. I changed all speakers to small, 80Hz for front speakers, 100 for center and 150 for surrounds. I left the sub level at -3 so NOT HOT. Then I changed Room Size all the way to Large.

All I know is that this sounds FAR deeper and more powerful than my previous setup in which I ran Audyssey with the room size at large and the sub level bumped UP 3dB HOT!
Well, without FR we're just guessing but I'd say Alan has it right...you're doubling up on the deepest bass which may or may not result in a more accurate bass presentation. But if that is what sounds best to you leave it like that. As others have said "reference" is important but not as important as "preference"..

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post #17974 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Well, without FR we're just guessing but I'd say Alan has it right...you're doubling up on the deepest bass which may or may not result in a more accurate bass presentation. But if that is what sounds best to you leave it like that. As others have said "reference" is important but not as important as "preference"..

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Thanks Tom! Just to be safe though, I turned the Room size to the middle position. Still sounds AMAZING!

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post #17975 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, turn up the gain on the sub until you can get MCACC to set the sub trim around -6 to -8db.

The MiniDSP will cut your output voltage a bit and this causes you to use a higher sub gain setting. Nothing to worry about, just the nature of the beast.

Why are you running MCACC with only one sub running??




I would use the one that EQs the sub and all channels individually....that's how Audyssey does it. Then add the MiniDSP post-calibration.

There are benefits to EQing pre-cal and post-cal. You have to decide for yourself which way you want to go.

The Symmetry setting doesn't sound like it's trying to EQ all channels to have the best timbre match (fronts separate from rears). I want all the speakers to have the same sound...not the front sound the same and the rears sound different.
Thanks for your help Alan... I'm not quite sure why I decided to run MCACC with only one sub connected. Maybe I read that somewhere. I guess I thought that only having one sub calibrated would correctly set the distance for the sub. I have the subs equidistant from the MLP.

The Pioneer MCACC manual describes the following EQ Types:

Symmetry: Implements symmetric correction for each pair of left and right speakers to flatten the frequency-amplitude characteristics.

All Channel Adjust: Is a 'flat' setting where all the speakers are set individually so no special weighting is given to any one channel.

Front Align: Sets all speakers in accordance with the front speaker settings (no equalization is applied to the front left and right channels).

The manual has a note that EQ of the subwoofer is automatically set when in All Channel Adjust.

Some of the stuff is confusing to me... anyhow, with that said should I run MCACC with All Channel Adjust still?
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post #17976 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 11:50 AM
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post #17977 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
Thanks for your help Alan... I'm not quite sure why I decided to run MCACC with only one sub connected. Maybe I read that somewhere. I guess I thought that only having one sub calibrated would correctly set the distance for the sub. I have the subs equidistant from the MLP.
You want to calibrate multiple subs as a "system" so all subs should be running when you run MCACC. If you run MCACC with only one sub, the EQ will not be correct since the combined frequency response when both subs are playing is probably vastly different than just one sub.


Quote:
Symmetry: Implements symmetric correction for each pair of left and right speakers to flatten the frequency-amplitude characteristics.
Sounds like it applies the same correction to each pair of speakers (FL/FR, SL/SR, SBL/SBR)...not sure what it does to the CC or sub(s). This would only work if you have a perfectly symmetrical room and your MLP was equidistant from all speakers. FAIL!

Quote:
All Channel Adjust: Is a 'flat' setting where all the speakers are set individually so no special weighting is given to any one channel.
Yup, EQing each speaker individually is what we want. WIN!

Quote:
Front Align: Sets all speakers in accordance with the front speaker settings (no equalization is applied to the front left and right channels).
This is the same as "Audyssey Bypass L/R", a setting I've never liked (although some do).

Quote:
The manual has a note that EQ of the subwoofer is automatically set when in All Channel Adjust.
Another WIN for All Channel Adjust.

Quote:
Some of the stuff is confusing to me...
We were all there at one time...don't hesitate to ask questions, even ones you think are "stupid".
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post #17978 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
I'm starting to wish I bought the Marantz... anybody help me out with these:

I re-ran MCACC several times. With one sub off (and the other sub on and connected to miniDSP but with filters bypassed) and the gain control knob at about 2:30 o'clockish it was coming in at -0.5db. On my XV15 it had been coming in at -6db at the same gain control position. Should I put the gain control at 3 o'clock or even 4 o'clock to get MCACC to put it more in the negative?

I noticed that MCACC will equalize the sub only when I select "all channel adjust" versus "symmetry"... I know that a lot of folks here are Audessey so I'm not sure what the equivalent would be. Basically the symmetry equalizes the fronts to match and the rears to match (it does not touch the sub though) and the all channel adjust individually equalizes all channels including the sub. So what should I do? Should I let MCACC adjust each channel (including the sub) or should I run MCACC in "symmetry" and then let REW coupled with the miniDSP equalize the sub?

MCACC does NOT do anything under 63Hz to your subwoofer(s). It does not matter if its "all channel adjust" or "symmetry" etc. You only need to run MCACC one time and it will correct for all (3) EQ modes, you just pick one after its done. I used to own Pioneer's in the past and if I recall correctly it defaults to "symmetry".


A couple of years ago I switched to a Denon with Audyssey XT32 and have not looked back. XT32 is far superior to MCACC in my experience.
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post #17979 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 12:31 PM
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post #17980 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 12:42 PM
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Ok thanks guys... so all channel adjust it is (Next AVR will be Marantz!) and I'll run MCACC with both subs running.... got it!

Can I just leave both subs connected to the miniDSP when I run MCACC considering I have bypassed all filters on it anyway? It will be (surprisingly) a huge pain in the butt to disconnect from the miniDSP and then run the sub cables back out of the one ton entertainment center and connect to the AVR (kind of a dumb problem but one none the less).
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post #17981 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 12:44 PM
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Yes, if you plan on keeping the MiniDSP in the chain (and why wouldn't you?) then you want to calibrate with it in the chain.
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post #17982 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 12:57 PM
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Talking S3000i On It's Way!

Just received my tracking number for my S3000i and it should be here on Friday!

Only problem now is my carpet doesn't get installed until next Friday...

Looks like I will have a week of "practice runs" with the miniDSP and REW on it before I get it into it's final home environment.
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post #17983 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 01:03 PM
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Congrats! That'll be a great workout... moving that baby-monster around
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Yippee-ki-yay...
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post #17984 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 01:03 PM
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Just received my tracking number for my S3000i and it should be here on Friday!
Just got my tracking info as well. But no updates on the FedEx site about the delivery date. Based on the V1500 transit time, I expect it to arrive on Monday or Tuesday.

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post #17985 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by nalthien View Post
Just got my tracking info as well. But no updates on the FedEx site about the delivery date. Based on the V1500 transit time, I expect it to arrive on Monday or Tuesday.
Just go to this link and type in 44440 (Power Sound Audio's zip code) for the zip code, make sure "View Outbound Map" is selected, and hit "View Map"

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post #17986 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 01:14 PM
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Just got my tracking info as well. But no updates on the FedEx site about the delivery date. Based on the V1500 transit time, I expect it to arrive on Monday or Tuesday.
Let the shoot out begin !!!
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post #17987 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 01:27 PM
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Just got my tracking info as well. But no updates on the FedEx site about the delivery date. Based on the V1500 transit time, I expect it to arrive on Monday or Tuesday.
When we generate the shipping label it auto fulfills into our merchant account and sends the info to the customer email. But until fedex shows up and the driver scans the label it doesn't enter the system. The driver gets here between 3-4pm(usually) and each label can take 5 minutes or more depending on the "system notations". So when we have 10-15-20 shipments we need to start them a couple hours before Fedex pops in..

We are trying to get a second truck here around 6pm today too, just a heads up.

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post #17988 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 03:35 PM
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I have put my XV15se up for sale in the classifieds if anyone is interested pm me.
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post #17989 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 03:41 PM
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Some one please help me to post my graphs from REW, I tried everything and don'y know what I'm doing.
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post #17990 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 03:43 PM
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Joined the PSA club today after nearly a year of researching and dickin around. Got a hold of Tom via the chat feature.... asked if there were any s3000i subs not spoken for in this first batch, the answer was yes.... order placed ! I've looked at everything from JTR, Seaton, Rythmik, HSU, and so on. I could have afforded most any of them but as a burgeoning old guy, value became more important, (fledgling old guy is a strange condition) in finding a replacement or team mate for my 17 year old Paradigm Servo 15. Now the old guy syndrome didn't kick in all the way as I'm sure a s1500 would have worked in my sealed 2700 cu ft sealed room but I wanted MOAR! To wrap it up, I chose PSA for their CS reputation, the s3000i's stats and the made/assembled in USA commitment. I believe that I've purchased performance and value. I'm eagerly looking forward to getting my new toy. As an after thought, I've made major life decisions with less deliberation and time than this subwoofer purchase .... and I know that you guys know what I mean.
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post #17991 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 04:01 PM
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Some one please help me to post my graphs from REW, I tried everything and don'y know what I'm doing.

HEY!! Your first graphs Jeff! I'm soooo excited!!!

Apparently you figured out how to post them because I can see them...what else you want to know?


From the looks of the full frequency sweep, you've got some work to do down low. You've got a horrendous 10-15db dip between 50-100hz! And some funkiness going on around 250hz.

What's the difference between the green and blue traces?

The other graph is useless...we don't need to see the mic/meter cal or the phase.
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post #17992 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 04:05 PM
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From the looks of the full frequency sweep, you've got some work to do down low. You've got a horrendous 10-15db dip between 50-100hz! And some funkiness going on around 250hz.
I was going to say that it almost looks like you're crossing over at 40-60hz and the subwoofer isn't participating above that level.

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post #17993 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 04:15 PM
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Good to see there's room for improvement though...always a good thing when you find out your system has more in it to give.
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post #17994 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 04:19 PM
 
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The speakers look pretty darn good in your room though!!
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post #17995 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
HEY!! Your first graphs Jeff! I'm soooo excited!!!

Apparently you figured out how to post them because I can see them...what else you want to know?


From the looks of the full frequency sweep, you've got some work to do down low. You've got a horrendous 10-15db dip between 50-100hz! And some funkiness going on around 250hz.

What's the difference between the green and blue traces?

The other graph is useless...we don't need to see the mic/meter cal or the phase.
Quote:
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Good to see there's room for improvement though...always a good thing when you find out your system has more in it to give.
+1. He got some work to do there and will be rewarded for sure as he thinks it sounds good as is now.
Jeff, finally!
I suggest to run a sweep with hdmi4 (Subs only) from 10-200hz, post its graph unsmooth (you have it at 1/6 smooth there), then HDMI1 (left + subs), 2 (Right + subs) and 3 (center + subs) from 10-20k and post these graphs with 1/6 smoothing.
Do you gain or level match your subs?

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post #17996 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 05:35 PM
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[QUOTE=Alan P;32934105]HEY!! Your first graphs Jeff! I'm soooo excited!!!

Apparently you figured out how to post them because I can see them...what else you want to know?


From the looks of the full frequency sweep, you've got some work to do down low. You've got a horrendous 10-15db dip between 50-100hz! And some funkiness going on around 250hz.

What's the difference between the green and blue traces?

The other graph is useless...we don't need to see the mic/meter cal or the phase. [/Q

I took a left speaker measurement (sweep) and then took another of the right speaker and that's what it looked like, I swear they were a lot smoother than that, I think I posted the wrong graph, I don't know. I'm just following Jerry's quide to a T.

What should I do next, I want to see my subs response but Jerry's guide has waterfall graphs next. So how do I proceed to take some real measurements of my subs.
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post #17997 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 05:42 PM
 
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For sub only only post your graph from 10-300hz. And no smoothing
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post #17998 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 05:44 PM
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@Alan , I think that second graph was the first measurement I took of the left speaker and it looked pretty good, I don't think I'm posting the real measurements.

At least I'm trying. Can I select just subs, subs +CC, subs + L subs + R etc?
What are the designations of the HDMI outputs 1-8 ? TIA

I want to know what's going on in my room, or do you suggest I keep following Jerry's guide as the next step is waterfalls? I finally got everything to work with the ASIO driver
Cheers Jeff
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Forget waterfalls. We will worry about that later


Test subs+l then subs+r then subs+c

Graph them 10-300 on horizontal and 5db increments on verticle

No smoothing

Then all spl to display them
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post #18000 of 52991 Old 03-25-2015, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Some one please help me to post my graphs from REW, I tried everything and don'y know what I'm doing.
That is a full range sweep i.e. 15 Hz-20K Hz. That's fine to check the FR of your entire system. To take a closer look at your subs, as well as their interaction with your mains in the crossover range, simply re-scale your graph to 10-200 Hz on the X-axis and 45-105 on the Y-axis. You can tell REW what frequency range you want to sweep. So set it to 10-200 Hz so your aren't needlessly sweeping the upper frequencies.

To do this, click on the "limits" tab near the top right. Set "left" to 10, "right" to 200, "top" to 105, and "bottom" to 45.
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