Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 771 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23101 of 50361 Old 10-04-2015, 08:59 PM
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that is not a max spl graph...it is simply a base response graph of 2 subs taken in a members room. the PB2000 does not have more output then a XV15se anywhere.
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post #23102 of 50361 Old 10-04-2015, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
I don't understand why anyone would need a powerful dedicated amp with such high efficiency speakers? You could easily play those at reference levels with a modest receiver costing much less and with more features. Maybe I don't get it?

Someone might also need a 7 channel amp because they were going to use something like the miniDSP DDRC-88A with Dirac.
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post #23103 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
I could arrange Fedex shipping for around $90, I was hoping corporate rates would be much less.
I dont know about PSA, but my corporate rate gets the highest reductions to Express (overnight/2nd day air) The ground stuff which is our bread and butter shipping gets less in discounts.
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post #23104 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
The key is that you listen at moderate levels. Are you trying to get tactile and visceral feeling while keeping the volume down? Can't have it both ways. I'm not convinced it would make a significant difference for you at listening levels of -20 or less--especially since you don't notice a difference running the sub hot. Do you have the room size on the S1500 set to LARGE?
Yes I have it set to large. I have tried small with both music and movies and cannot tell a difference.
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post #23105 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
The key is that you listen at moderate levels. Are you trying to get tactile and visceral feeling while keeping the volume down?
Is there a way to do that? Would just turning up the gain on subwoofer and level output on receiver be able to accomplish both of those things?
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post #23106 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
Well that's a surprise. Are you saying that's because of the DSP in the PB2000? Also this graph makes it seem like the XV15se has no advantage over the PB-2000 which I find hard to believe given the difference in driver size.
That is the conclusion of people in that thread. The hypothesis to explain it is that the PB-2000 has internally DSP programmed bump to its output around 20 to 30 or so. Therefore, until the PB-2000 hit compression, it had more output below 40 Hz and similar above 40 Hz all else equal. it would take level above the PB-2000 capabilities before a bigger subwoofer, without such a bump, had an advantage.

The V-1500 appears to have a flatter FR to high teens as oppose to the low 20s of the XV-15SE. So maybe it would not be like that, but still at moderate levels, output-wise would be the same. So my dilemma is is that same at levels I use but more ability worth $300 if I never use it.

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post #23107 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
Yes about 3 to 5 dB higher than calibrated (Audyssey set it at -7.5 and have tried -4.5 to -2.5 but do not really tell a difference.)

My thinking on moderate levels, and others have noted it is that the PB-2000 actually has a bump in its FR in the low 20s to 30. So until it hits its limits, people have found it has higher output than larger ported subwoofers that do not have such a bounce.

For example, this person's measurements between a PB-2000 and and XV-15SE, where the PB-2000 had noticeably more output under 40 Hz, and similar to slightly less output to the XV-15SE above 40 Hz:
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
that is not a max spl graph...it is simply a base response graph of 2 subs taken in a members room. the PB2000 does not have more output then a XV15se anywhere.
It may very well be that the SB1500 isn't the sub for you but time will tell as you explore this more. Personally I like ported subs and I would look at the XV15se because I agree with basshead, that graph isn't showing you what you think it is. I would put a XV15se up against a PB2000 any day. The PB2000 is a great sub but the XV15se brings a more to the table.

I applaud your decision of getting a properly calibrated mic and running REW. The best way to dial in a subwoofer is to place it properly in a room. A person can waste a lot of time and money rolling through multiple subwoofers and they will all under perform if you keep putting them in the wrong location. The only way to know what's going on is to see it with something like REW. So... good call on getting the mic.

I also agree with @sk373 that if you are listening at -20 than you most likely won't be wowed by any subwoofer (unless you run them 7 to 10 db hot). If you are looking for visceral chest slam then that will only occur with strong output in the mid bass region (roughly 60 Hz though 130 hz) played at a volume that's quit a bit louder than -20.

Everyone defines being wowed differently. What is your definition of being wowed?
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post #23108 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
If you are looking for visceral chest slam then that will only occur with strong output in the mid bass region (roughly 60 Hz though 130 hz) played at a volume that's quit a bit louder than -20.

Everyone defines being wowed differently. What is your definition of being wowed?
Per my un-calibrate mic measurement, and the prediction of room simulator, I have a null around 60-70 Hz, at my subwoofer's current location - perhaps that is limiting any "wow." Room simulator is predicting that another location would have no such null, and besides some peaks would be flat with no nulls. So I will try that after I get the Umik. I would rather not do it now with an uncalibrated microphone because it would entail movie a large dresser and I would rather wait to see what the Umik shows for the current subwoofer location.

On wow, I mean "wow" as in surprised (hearing things I did not know where in movies, being surprised by "umphs" in movies etc.)
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post #23109 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
Per my un-calibrate mic measurement, and the prediction of room simulator, I have a null around 60-70 Hz, at my subwoofer's current location - perhaps that is limiting any "wow." Room simulator is predicting that another location would have no such null, and besides some peaks would be flat with no nulls. So I will try that after I get the Umik. I would rather not do it now with an uncalibrated microphone because it would entail movie a large dresser and I would rather wait to see what the Umik shows for the current subwoofer location.

On wow, I mean "wow" as in surprised (hearing things I did not know where in movies, being surprised by "umphs" in movies etc.)

FWIW, I think that suggestion to run 7-10db hot is a good one. Most of my movie watching is at around -15, but I like to run subs anywhere from 6-9db hot. That increases my wow factor. DEQ will also help by boosting bass below Reference. One thing when you are testing and listening this week. Try running another Audyssey calibration with your sub gain turned up a little. Ideally, you would probably want Audyssey to put your sub level at -10 or -11 (but not -12). That way you could get at least 9 or 10db of upward adjustability without exceeding 0 trim level in your AVR. There is a section in the FAQ, linked below, which explains why it is important to use high gain in the sub, and relatively low level trim in the AVR, to avoid running out of headroom. From my understanding, that is more important as you go above -10 on the MV, but it is probably a good precaution to take in general. You never know when you might get carried away on the MV.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23110 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
FWIW, I think that suggestion to run 7-10db hot is a good one. Most of my movie watching is at around -15, but I like to run subs anywhere from 6-9db hot. That increases my wow factor. DEQ will also help by boosting bass below Reference.
What is DEQ? How do you do it?
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post #23111 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
What is DEQ? How do you do it?
http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/dynamic-eq

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post #23112 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
That is the conclusion of people in that thread. The hypothesis to explain it is that the PB-2000 has internally DSP programmed bump to its output around 20 to 30 or so. Therefore, until the PB-2000 hit compression, it had more output below 40 Hz and similar above 40 Hz all else equal. it would take level above the PB-2000 capabilities before a bigger subwoofer, without such a bump, had an advantage.

The V-1500 appears to have a flatter FR to high teens as oppose to the low 20s of the XV-15SE. So maybe it would not be like that, but still at moderate levels, output-wise would be the same. So my dilemma is is that same at levels I use but more ability worth $300 if I never use it.
I would not form a opinion based off of 1 members room. What about the other people that prefer the XV15se? Again what the response looked like in that posters room does not mean you would have the same response in your room. look at the base response of both subs from the manufacturer, they both are flat. I am guessing the response difference could of been due to how the subs were placed. The Pb2000 was getting better room gain. you can easily shape the response how you like with a Mini DSP if you want a bump below 30hz.
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post #23113 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
What is DEQ? How do you do it?

I think that all versions of Audyssey have DEQ. What version do you have? Or what AVR do you have? If you go into your audio menu, under Audyssey, you will find the DEQ setting. It should already be defaulting to on, though, whenever you do an Audyssey calibration. The link in the post above will describe what it does.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23114 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

Thanks. I was actually recently exploring DynEQ but could not figure out what it exactly did. I found an article of an interview with Tom Vodhanel where he was stating that DynaEQ caused problems for subwoofer integration into systems sometimes*, so I thought it was doing the opposite (taming bass etc.) So I am very glad this came up as it seems something you definitely want to run when listening at moderate levels.


*
S&V: How do you feel about the various automatic EQ technologies when it comes to subwoofer optimization?
TV: A lot of it seems to be room-dependent. In a bad room you’re asking the EQ to do a lot more. Jim [Farina, co-founder of Power Sound Audio] and I worked extensively with the Audyssey engineers back in 2006. We did many measurements in various rooms, probably a total of 200 or 300 graphs. Audyssey usually does a very good job across the board. There are things about it I don’t like, like Dynamic EQ—but I just don’t like that because it’s an extra variable I have to deal with when customers are having a problem. But the EQ part seems to do a great job now.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...6GSbYB2SVQq.99
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post #23115 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
Thanks. I was actually recently exploring DynEQ but could not figure out what it exactly did. I found an article of an interview with Tom Vodhanel where he was stating that DynaEQ caused problems for subwoofer integration into systems sometimes*, so I thought it was doing the opposite (taming bass etc.) So I am very glad this came up as it seems something you definitely want to run when listening at moderate levels.


*
S&V: How do you feel about the various automatic EQ technologies when it comes to subwoofer optimization?
TV: A lot of it seems to be room-dependent. In a bad room you’re asking the EQ to do a lot more. Jim [Farina, co-founder of Power Sound Audio] and I worked extensively with the Audyssey engineers back in 2006. We did many measurements in various rooms, probably a total of 200 or 300 graphs. Audyssey usually does a very good job across the board. There are things about it I don’t like, like Dynamic EQ—but I just don’t like that because it’s an extra variable I have to deal with when customers are having a problem. But the EQ part seems to do a great job now.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...6GSbYB2SVQq.99
One thing to remember about these types of articles is they tend to be heavily edited at multiple points in the publishing chain. In this case my main issue with DYN-EQ is how much boost it may apply at lower volume levels. 10-15dB in some cases! So this can be an important variable to consider when troubleshooting different applications.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #23116 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 06:59 AM
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^^^ I don't use it anymore because I think it tends to inflate the surrounds a bit much at times and that can drown out the dialogue coming from the center channel.
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post #23117 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
^^^ I don't use it anymore because I think it tends to inflate the surrounds a bit much at times and that can drown out the dialogue coming from the center channel.

I agree with both your post and Tom's. I know that Audyssey developed RLO (Reference Level Offset) to deal with over-boosting issues. At about -15, I typically use an RLO setting of -5, which if I remember correctly boosts the bass by about 5db. There are some measured responses for RLO in the FAQ.

I don't use DEQ at all for music. Even for football games, or other sporting events, and for most TV viewing, I find the bass boost and especially the surround boost, more irritating than helpful. But for certain types of movies with heavy special effects, or something like Game of Thrones, it can be pretty enjoyable if you are 10db, or so, down from Reference. Sometimes I have the same dialogue issues you mentioned, and then I turn up my center channel a little more. There has always been a lot of debate about whether or not people like it. With me, it's a sometimes thing.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23118 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 07:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I agree with both your post and Tom's. I know that Audyssey developed RLO (Reference Level Offset) to deal with over-boosting issues. At about -15, I typically use an RLO setting of -5, which if I remember correctly boosts the bass by about 5db. There are some measured responses for RLO in the FAQ.

I don't use DEQ at all for music. Even for football games, or other sporting events, and for most TV viewing, I find the bass boost and especially the surround boost, more irritating than helpful. But for certain types of movies with heavy special effects, or something like Game of Thrones, it can be pretty enjoyable if you are 10db, or so, down from Reference. Sometimes I have the same dialogue issues you mentioned, and then I turn up my center channel a little more. There has always been a lot of debate about whether or not people like it. With me, it's a sometimes thing.
you are correct about being able to adjust DEQ but your wrong in its implementation

if you set it to -5 then it will use -5 as "reference"....so if you are at -5 on mv...it will apply no boost (same as if you didnt touch the DEQ and had MV at 0.0) so it has less effect the lower your MV is

does that make sense? hard to explain in typed words
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post #23119 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 07:50 AM
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Checker9 - up until last week I owned 2 SVS subs. Before deciding to purchase my PSA sub I spent way too much time researching what to buy. Given I just joined the ranks of PSA ownership, still own a SVS sub, I would strongly encourage you look at another PSA product if tweaking doesn't solve your issues with the S1500, if you choose to go with a different brand there are much better ID options than SVS.

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post #23120 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
you are correct about being able to adjust DEQ but your wrong in its implementation

if you set it to -5 then it will use -5 as "reference"....so if you are at -5 on mv...it will apply no boost (same as if you didnt touch the DEQ and had MV at 0.0) so it has less effect the lower your MV is

does that make sense? hard to explain in typed words

Thanks! You are exactly right, but I think you may have misunderstood what I said. It is hard to put into words. I use an RLO setting of -5 at a MV setting of about -15. At that combination of settings, DEQ is adjusting as if I were at a MV setting of -10. The measured response at that level, according to some measurements that AustinJerry ran several years ago, is a max bass boost of about 5db (only about 3db at some frequencies). You have to experiment, of course, to find an RLO setting that works well with your MV setting, but that one seems to work pretty well for me.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23121 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Checker9 - up until last week I owned 2 SVS subs. Before deciding to purchase my PSA sub I spent way too much time researching what to buy. Given I just joined the ranks of PSA ownership, still own a SVS sub, I would strongly encourage you look at another PSA product if tweaking doesn't solve your issues with the S1500, if you choose to go with a different brand there are much better ID options than SVS.
I agree! I hope my post did not sound biased because I have a PC12 and 3 XV15se so I have a clue on which sub has more output. Even if you add 3db to the PC12 to achieve what the PC/PB2000 subs put out, they still would not touch the XV15se. I measured about 6db more headroom from the XV15se from 20hz on up compared to the PC12. Both subs sound great, the XV simply has more horsepower. You can easily add a small house curve to the XV if you want a bump below 30hz.


It sounds to me like Checker just needs to run the S1500 hotter...it's common for auto eq software to set the sub low leaving folks underwhelmed with their new toys.
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post #23122 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
Per my un-calibrate mic measurement, and the prediction of room simulator, I have a null around 60-70 Hz, at my subwoofer's current location - perhaps that is limiting any "wow." Room simulator is predicting that another location would have no such null, and besides some peaks would be flat with no nulls. So I will try that after I get the Umik. I would rather not do it now with an uncalibrated microphone because it would entail movie a large dresser and I would rather wait to see what the Umik shows for the current subwoofer location.

On wow, I mean "wow" as in surprised (hearing things I did not know where in movies, being surprised by "umphs" in movies etc.)

Is your room completely sealed? I believe you said your room is 2000cu, if so I would go with a XS30SE and if that doesn't do it for you I would go straight to a S3600I. If your receiver has audyssey and included Dynamic EQ, I would enable it as it boosts the surrounds and sub levels especially at your lower listening levels which should give you more of the " WOW" factor that you are looking for.


Sorry, I just saw Dynamic EQ was covered.

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post #23123 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
...it's common for auto eq software to set the sub low leaving folks underwhelmed with their new toys.
Probably so that when you take home your shiny Yamaha, Klipsch, Def Tech, etc subwoofers, you don't blow the damn things up! My brother has the $99 NewEgg Polk Audio subwoofer special and that thing is such a joke. (ported 10" or so) But, it sounds 'good to his ears', so I guess if he's happy, that's all that matters. When I turn it up to normal levels that us AVS guys and gals would appreciate, it's chock-full of distorted boomy bass and basically gets maxed at -25 to -30, depending on source content. The system sounds better when it's turned off!

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post #23124 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
One thing to remember about these types of articles is they tend to be heavily edited at multiple points in the publishing chain. In this case my main issue with DYN-EQ is how much boost it may apply at lower volume levels. 10-15dB in some cases! So this can be an important variable to consider when troubleshooting different applications.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I agree. Since I did not know what DynEQ did, I just assume it retarded bass based on that interview. So glad I learned from this forum.
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post #23125 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Checker9 - up until last week I owned 2 SVS subs. Before deciding to purchase my PSA sub I spent way too much time researching what to buy. Given I just joined the ranks of PSA ownership, still own a SVS sub, I would strongly encourage you look at another PSA product if tweaking doesn't solve your issues with the S1500, if you choose to go with a different brand there are much better ID options than SVS.
What did you find SVS not having and the others having?
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post #23126 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Is your room completely sealed? I believe you said your room is 2000cu, if so I would go with a XS30SE and if that doesn't do it for you I would go straight to a S3600I.
It has 3 doors (outside of room, bathroom and a closet) but I keep the doors shut.
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post #23127 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
What did you find SVS not having and the others having?
Value ratio just isn't there for SVS anymore, sorry but they have been left behind. SVS is stuck in the 90's only offering 10"/12" drivers on nearly all of their subs IMO. SVS isn't that ID company I picked to do business with years ago, foreign owned now (not bad, but we all know what PSA takes pride in), but more importantly they seem to be putting all their focus on the speaker lines, not their subs. IMO the difference between the SB12 NSD and the SB2000 - meh. That's their big upgrade over the last 5 years besides going with Sledge amps vs. Bash.

If you look at PSA, Reaction Audio, HSU, Rythmik product offerings, new subs they have come out with over the past couple of years, use of ICEAmps (PSA and RA) - the offerings from SVS just don't match up. Keep in mind I spent a nice chunk of change with SVS a year ago when I bought the PC12+. For a while now I have been reading about SVS subs and how they are not musical. Personally I didn't believe it. As I have gotten more into hi-res music (shiny disks), thus listened to more music, I was disappointed with the sound of my system - the lower end of that sound. Bookshelves only get you so far without a good sub or 2 (on this thread 4+ ), especially if you are using room correction and cross them at 80 as I do. I had a good talk with Tom about the music performance of his subs, never doubted their ability with movies, bought the v1800 and to be completely honest I spent as much time listening to music this weekend as I did watching movies. Important to note - the v1800 kicks xxx on movies too.

I am not of only output matters camp, even though I know its a huge factor. SVS offers a very good bill of rights, but there are a number of ID that are similar - see PSA as one example. Look at the data-bass site, see how SVS #'s compare to other offerings or DIY solutions. With my new sub, the only thing I would look at now from SVS is an Ultra. Even then I have to say there are better choices at that price point. Another key point, when you get ready to upgrade or add a second - I would rather be talking to Tom instead of who knows who at "corporate" SVS. That is key for me, and a reason I chose to buy my speakers from Ascend. It's great to talk to the owner, the people who designed the products you own or are considering to purchase. Tom (PSA), Brian (Rythmik), Jeremy (RA), and Dr. HSU (one guess) - those ID companies get that.

Sorry for the long reply, not a simple answer. It's one I thought about long and hard before ending up with a PSA in my system. Steve

There is no perfect display, quit looking for faults and enjoy

LG OLED 65” B7 and 55” C8
Ascend's with RAAL, Love my PSA v1800 and a 7.2.4 speaker config, Oppo 203 and other stuff

Last edited by smurraybhm; 10-05-2015 at 10:58 AM.
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post #23128 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 10:14 AM
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What did you find SVS not having and the others having?
They are missing the "V".

Display - LG OLED
Receiver - Denon
Speakers - Klipsch
Subs - Rythmik
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post #23129 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
They are missing the "V".
That's what I was going to say. When the people that designed SVS"s products, Tom V (C0-founder SVS and PSA) Jim F,(CO-Founded PSA) and Stephen P (now at JL) leave. It's not hard to see why SVS has well, plateaued.

ShaunH

Last edited by oneeyeblind; 10-05-2015 at 10:36 AM. Reason: fixed
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post #23130 of 50361 Old 10-05-2015, 10:32 AM
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Checker, I highly recommend that you look at the data-bass review of the PB12 before you give up on the PSA. "Looking at the maximum long term and CEA-2010 peak output levels the PB12-NSD gives a strong performance for it's price class but is not an exceptionally loud subwoofer. It does offer more 16-30Hz power than most of its competitors though."
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