Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 863 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #25861 of 52994 Old 04-12-2016, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Oh, oops. I re-did the sim with the correct specs and I see what you mean...but I still think you will be better off with a third sub, and it will work better anywhere off the front wall.




I'm sure you know this is not ideal, right? Having your MLP against a wall is a recipe for bad bass no matter how many subs you stuff into your room.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish by adding a third sub? More output, or a wider sweet spot? If you just want the added headroom, I'd say pass...it's not worth the money for the small gain you will get (~3dB). If it's for more even coverage you simply can NOT put the third sub on the front wall...you'll just be shooting yourself in the foot.

And get off of that back wall!!
Alan, was hoping to get a more even bass response in my room. My preference is on music. Things have to be very tight, punchy, and well articulated. Not trying to increase headroom per se, as I reside in a 1BR apartment. However, I do like to rock out every now and then. Likewise, also like to watch a movie here and there. If I don't place a 3rd S1500 along the front wall, then the ONLY other option is next to my seating position in the left corner. There are no other options as my listening area is rather small.

Placing a S1500 near-filed also affects changes in the time domain. I am afraid that the nearfield placed S1500 will muddy up things since the other two will be in opposing corners on the front wall. In other words, the bass will reach my ears sooner than the two S1500's up front. Just can NOT stand sloppy/muddy bass. How would I address that problem if a 3rd S1500 is placed near-field? Here are some pics that may be helpful:

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...arrived.98286/

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...changes.98259/

This should give you a better idea of my room layout and limitations. Also, if you go to post #25742 of this thread, there are even more pics. Any and all feedback is very helpful. Always strive to keep an open mind. That is, unless you marry me.......LOL!!!! Just kidding! Please take a close look at the pics and let me know what you think Alan. No hurry, just when you have the time. Appreciate the help!

Cheers,

Phil
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post #25862 of 52994 Old 04-12-2016, 06:55 PM
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Is anyone using a subdude with their V3600I, or another isolation system? This beast has created quite a few new rattles, and I'm trying to engineer them out, and an isolation system would be great.

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post #25863 of 52994 Old 04-12-2016, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofreak38 View Post
Placing a S1500 near-filed also affects changes in the time domain. I am afraid that the nearfield placed S1500 will muddy up things since the other two will be in opposing corners on the front wall. In other words, the bass will reach my ears sooner than the two S1500's up front. Just can NOT stand sloppy/muddy bass. How would I address that problem if a 3rd S1500 is placed near-field?
Use your miniDSP 2x4 to add delay to the nearfield sub, that should take care of the issue.
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post #25864 of 52994 Old 04-12-2016, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post
Use your miniDSP 2x4 to add delay to the nearfield sub, that should take care of the issue.
That is the idea. But, am a ways off before doing that. Just know learning how to use the Room Simulator. However, hope to be taking measurements soon enough. Just a slow progression on my end....LOL!!!

Cheers,

Phil
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post #25865 of 52994 Old 04-12-2016, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofreak38 View Post
That is the idea. But, am a ways off before doing that. Just know learning how to use the Room Simulator. However, hope to be taking measurements soon enough. Just a slow progression on my end....LOL!!!

Cheers,

Phil
Questions...
1- Are the front subs equal distance from the MLP?
2- How far from the MLP are they?
3- How far away from the MLP would the nearfield sub be?

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post #25866 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mattboyer View Post
Well the gang is finally all here. Received the second pair of V1800s today and am looking forward to getting them hooked up and integrated with the AM2DC.

One side note for anyone looking to add to previous purchases, the V1800s style (no idea on the other models) has changed on the front to have rounded edges along the face. So these won't match. It's not terribly dramatic, but it is immediately noticeable. I've included pics for those interested.

Not sure when the change came along as my previous two were from Nov '15. I'm just a touch neurotic about things matching so I've rearranged the old sub layouts to have matching styles in front and the back, but otherwise that'd really bug me.
@mattboyer
DO you have a room measurement(before/after) from using your AM2DC? Would like to see, especially with 4 EA X V1800 I can try to find mine with the three subs that I have.
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post #25867 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
@mattboyer
DO you have a room measurement(before/after) from using your AM2DC? Would like to see, especially with 4 EA X V1800 I can try to find mine with the three subs that I have.
I did remember to snap a phone pic before running calibration again with the extra subs. This is the result of zero tweaking/effort for this comparison. All I did was place them in initial, distributed locations (four 'corners' of the open space - large rec room) and level match them.

The graph on the left is what I had w/ just the pair. At this point w/ the 2x V1800s I was wondering why I needed an AM2DC if that's all it was going to do. Graph on the right shows the 4x V1800s where the valleys were reduced about half but also managed to introduce new dips. Overall an improvement though (on graphs - haven't had a good listen yet).

Now I just need to spend a day moving things around to get those dips lessened and give AM2DC an easier task.
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post #25868 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post
Questions...
1- Are the front subs equal distance from the MLP?
2- How far from the MLP are they?
3- How far away from the MLP would the nearfield sub be?
The S1500 in the front left corner is about 9.5' from the LP whereas the other is about 10.5'. If I place a 3rd near-field it will be ~ 5' from my LP. However, getting ready to move things around some. When I am done, both S1500s will be much closer to being the same distance from the LP. Hope to be getting that done soon enough. The enemy is finding the time....LOL!!!!!

Cheers,

Phil

PS There is a link to some pics that may help you get a better idea of my room layout and/or limitations.
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post #25869 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 06:58 AM
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@mattboyer,
I do have one as well, as I have been playing with my 3 subs for a while and the AM2DC. Still have some work to do, as I have a horrible dip just after 100. I just need to get smarter about a few things in my room, which is the next thing I need to address.
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post #25870 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 07:13 AM
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Hey guys I've caught a cause of upgraditis and am looking to upgrade from my dual PB-1000s to dual V1500s or V1800s. Kind of leaning towards the V1800s so I can just upgrade once and for all. Has anyone here heard PB-1000s and moved to V15s or 18s? I have a small room (1500cf) would the V1800s be 'too much'?
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post #25871 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
I do have one as well, as I have been playing with my 3 subs for a while and the AM2DC. Still have some work to do, as I have a horrible dip just after 100. I just need to get smarter about a few things in my room, which is the next thing I need to address.
Aside from that one dip your graph looks awesome and very smooth. I'll have to work on mine to get it as good as yours. Do you have a REW setup available to test if your crossover settings can correct that one null?

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post #25872 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mattboyer View Post
Aside from that one dip your graph looks awesome and very smooth. I'll have to work on mine to get it as good as yours. Do you have a REW setup available to test if your crossover settings can correct that one null?

I acquired a laptop just recently, and d/l REW, just having a hard time managing time for that with 3 girls and sports. I am hoping that I can get the laptop running this weekend. The laptop doe not have DMI, but still can use the front AUX on the receiver to do some measuring with the center channel. Just thinking out loud, but I think the dip may be due to the room. I have manipulated the crossover settings, but only with AM2DC, and the posted result is the best I can do for now.
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post #25873 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 08:16 AM
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Lizruss, have you tried bumping up the crossover?
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post #25874 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 08:52 AM
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@basshead81
I really was adjusting the back of the subs, and adjusting the delay, and messing with room size. I did not adjust the crossover in XT32 in the receiver. I think it is set for 80. Think that bumping up to 90 or 100 would help? Guess I just need to do it, and answer my own question.
Thanks for the info.
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post #25875 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systemlayers View Post
Kind of leaning towards the V1800s so I can just upgrade once and for all. Has anyone here heard PB-1000s and moved to V15s or 18s? I have a small room (1500cf) would the V1800s be 'too much'?
I can't speak to the PB-1000s, but when I was trying to decided between the 15s & 18s I initially went with the 15s then overnight decided I'd be looking at them wondering how much better 18s would be. Switched the order in the morning and am glad I did. Figured I'd just go all in once and avoid the draw to upsize later (of course 4 months later I added 2 more 18s, but that's another story).

At that room size I'd imagine the 15s would be great, but if the "what-if" bug is likely to bite then that's something to consider.
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post #25876 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 09:13 AM
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I have run a single pb10-nsd which was the precursor to the pb-1000. I also ran the old dual 16-46 water heaters before upgrading to dual v1500 in my basement room. The v1500 is far and away better than the pb10/pb1000 which is no slouch in its own way. Its not even the same ballpark as far as output though and extension is much better.

I think you would be very pleased with either psa option. Sounds like the v1500 will dig a bit lower than the v1800 but loses out in the mid bass to them. If you go this route you would probably be very happy with the 15 but the ability to avoid upgraditis is always good w the v18. If going 15 you could save some money and go with the 15v as it sounds like almost identical output to the 1500 but with the downfiring configuration. You could put your savings towards a nice antimode or DSP solution for optimizing the dual setup. Tom is pretty good about putting some very attractive packages together when bundling things up.
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post #25877 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 09:16 AM
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Also for what it's worth I think 15's would be rocking in that size room but pop into chat with PSA and go through your listening habits and goals and they will give you some great advice.
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post #25878 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 09:36 AM
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Also for what it's worth I think 15's would be rocking in that size room but pop into chat with PSA and go through your listening habits and goals and they will give you some great advice.
+1 Perfectly said
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post #25879 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systemlayers View Post
Hey guys I've caught a cause of upgraditis and am looking to upgrade from my dual PB-1000s to dual V1500s or V1800s. Kind of leaning towards the V1800s so I can just upgrade once and for all. Has anyone here heard PB-1000s and moved to V15s or 18s? I have a small room (1500cf) would the V1800s be 'too much'?
We're always behind (my fault) on updating our testimonial pages. But I know we have a few on FB that might fit-the-bill to some degree.

https://www.facebook.com/powersounda...31778723597498

https://www.facebook.com/powersounda...55904077851629

https://www.facebook.com/powersounda...31217893653581

Either option (dual V1500s or dual V1800s) would be a significant upgrade in every important metric(sound quality, output capabilities, extension). In your room environment I would expect the two options to sound much more alike than different. So in terms of *value*, the dual V1500s are arguably the winner. However, as you and others have alluded too, the "go big now and eliminate upgrad-itis later" mentality shouldn't be ignored.

Pop into chat if you have time and we can work through some of these questions in real-time..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #25880 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofreak38 View Post
Alan, was hoping to get a more even bass response in my room. My preference is on music. Things have to be very tight, punchy, and well articulated. Not trying to increase headroom per se, as I reside in a 1BR apartment. However, I do like to rock out every now and then. Likewise, also like to watch a movie here and there. If I don't place a 3rd S1500 along the front wall, then the ONLY other option is next to my seating position in the left corner. There are no other options as my listening area is rather small.

Placing a S1500 near-filed also affects changes in the time domain. I am afraid that the nearfield placed S1500 will muddy up things since the other two will be in opposing corners on the front wall. In other words, the bass will reach my ears sooner than the two S1500's up front. Just can NOT stand sloppy/muddy bass. How would I address that problem if a 3rd S1500 is placed near-field? Here are some pics that may be helpful:

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...arrived.98286/

https://forums.audioholics.com/forum...changes.98259/

This should give you a better idea of my room layout and limitations. Also, if you go to post #25742 of this thread, there are even more pics. Any and all feedback is very helpful. Always strive to keep an open mind. That is, unless you marry me.......LOL!!!! Just kidding! Please take a close look at the pics and let me know what you think Alan. No hurry, just when you have the time. Appreciate the help!

Cheers,

Phil
Can we see some measurements of your current sub response? That would help determine if you even need another sub. Measurements from all seats that you are trying to optimize would be good. FR or FL+subs only.

Do you have a MiniDSP (as mentioned above)?? If so, that is how you would add delay to the nearfield sub.

If "Things have to be very tight, punchy, and well articulated" and you "Just can NOT stand sloppy/muddy bass", you need to find a way to get your MLP away from the back wall if at all possible. More than anything else you can do right now (including adding a third sub), this will improve your bass (along with the overall sound of your system) dramatically.
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post #25881 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 11:30 AM
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Thanks everyone for the opinions. I think dual V1500s seem like the way to go for my space. There's always a 'better' and really I'm just looking for a bigger 'thump' and more tactical response. Just have to 'find' some cash and hopefully I can join the PSA club .
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post #25882 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattboyer View Post
Well the gang is finally all here. Received the second pair of V1800s today and am looking forward to getting them hooked up and integrated with the AM2DC.

One side note for anyone looking to add to previous purchases, the V1800s style (no idea on the other models) has changed on the front to have rounded edges along the face. So these won't match. It's not terribly dramatic, but it is immediately noticeable. I've included pics for those interested.

Not sure when the change came along as my previous two were from Nov '15. I'm just a touch neurotic about things matching so I've rearranged the old sub layouts to have matching styles in front and the back, but otherwise that'd really bug me.
If this helps… I looked at your photos before reading your post and I couldn't figure out what you were trying to show with your pics. So I had to read your post before I even noticed the difference.

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post #25883 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systemlayers View Post
Thanks everyone for the opinions. I think dual V1500s seem like the way to go for my space. There's always a 'better' and really I'm just looking for a bigger 'thump' and more tactical response. Just have to 'find' some cash and hopefully I can join the PSA club .
Wise choice regarding the V1500 if you aren't a guy who suffers from upgradeitis (which I personally seem to have contracted since jointing AVS).

I know this was mentioned earlier but I'll repeat it… If you are strapped for cash the 15V is very similar to the V1500 in terms of output and SQ but it is cheaper and will save you some cash. That would be a good option to consider if you want to join this PSA club a little sooner.

As a side note…my dad owned a pb1000 for awhile and I helped him set it up so I heard it quit a bit. Coming from the pb1000 any of the three options (15V, V1500 or the V1800) should pretty much blow you away.

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post #25884 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systemlayers View Post
Thanks everyone for the opinions. I think dual V1500s seem like the way to go for my space. There's always a 'better' and really I'm just looking for a bigger 'thump' and more tactical response. Just have to 'find' some cash and hopefully I can join the PSA club .
I'm sorry for being lazy and not reading your previous post but instead of buying 2 V1500's why not buy a single V3600I now and add a V1500 or V1800 later if need be.
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post #25885 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Can we see some measurements of your current sub response? That would help determine if you even need another sub. Measurements from all seats that you are trying to optimize would be good. FR or FL+subs only.

Do you have a MiniDSP (as mentioned above)?? If so, that is how you would add delay to the nearfield sub.

If "Things have to be very tight, punchy, and well articulated" and you "Just can NOT stand sloppy/muddy bass", you need to find a way to get your MLP away from the back wall if at all possible. More than anything else you can do right now (including adding a third sub), this will improve your bass (along with the overall sound of your system) dramatically.
Alan, I just got my speaker stands put together today. Will be removing the tables from my front-stage and putting my Ultras on the stands. Then, I will be moving my AVR, BR Player, and DVR onto my tv stand. As such, will be moving things around somewhat. Should have a bit more room upfront so hope to balance things out more. May move my S1500's a bit as well. So, can't take any measurements just yet. But, hope to do so very soon.

I do have a miniDSP 2X4 and a CSL UMik 1 mic. Already downloaded REW. So, I am getting there one step at a time. Not sure if I need to order a tri-pod or not. I have a tri-pod but not sure it will suffice. What would you recommend? Also, I may can move my couch off of the back wall by putting some 2X4's spacers. How far off the back wall would you recommend? I think that the 2X4 spacers would work quite well. Appreciate all of your help. Down the road, want to do some bass traps/room treatments too.

Cheers,

Phil

Last edited by audiofreak38; 04-13-2016 at 07:17 PM.
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post #25886 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 08:08 PM
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The S1500 in the front left corner is about 9.5' from the LP whereas the other is about 10.5'. If I place a 3rd near-field it will be ~ 5' from my LP. However, getting ready to move things around some. When I am done, both S1500s will be much closer to being the same distance from the LP. Hope to be getting that done soon enough. The enemy is finding the time....LOL!!!!!

Cheers,

Phil

PS There is a link to some pics that may help you get a better idea of my room layout and/or limitations.
Ok, now that I'm home from work and have access to my spreadsheet, here's what I come up with.

At the distances you stated, put these delays into your miniDSP 2x4 and you will be very close...
Sub 1 at 10.5 feet - 0 delay
Sub 2 at 9.5 feet - .89 ms delay
Sub 3 at 5 feet - 4.88 ms delay

After running Audyssey, if that's what you have, you may need the Sub Distance Tweak to dial in the crossover region, but the above delays shouldn't need to be changed.
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post #25887 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 08:51 PM
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Ok, now that I'm home from work and have access to my spreadsheet, here's what I come up with.

At the distances you stated, put these delays into your miniDSP 2x4 and you will be very close...
Sub 1 at 10.5 feet - 0 delay
Sub 2 at 9.5 feet - .89 ms delay
Sub 3 at 5 feet - 4.88 ms delay

After running Audyssey, if that's what you have, you may need the Sub Distance Tweak to dial in the crossover region, but the above delays shouldn't need to be changed.
Hey, really appreciate what you are doing for me here. But, to be honest I am a ways away from using my miniDSP. Have not even taken any measurements just yet. Got a lot to learn before I get to that stage. Also, just got my stands put together today so I am removing my tables. My AVR, BR Player, and DVR are going onto my tv stand as well. The idea is, to balance things out a bit. That means, I will need to move things around some. Once I get that done, I will measure how far my S1500's are from my MLP. Going to try to keep them equidistant from MLP. Really like my stands and hope that they make my Ultras sound even better. Will find out soon enough. Thanks for your help. Wished you lived closer.....LOL!!!!!

Cheers,

Phil
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post #25888 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 09:06 PM
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Hey, really appreciate what you are doing for me here. But, to be honest I am a ways away from using my miniDSP. Have not even taken any measurements just yet. Got a lot to learn before I get to that stage. Also, just got my stands put together today so I am removing my tables. My AVR, BR Player, and DVR are going onto my tv stand as well. The idea is, to balance things out a bit. That means, I will need to move things around some. Once I get that done, I will measure how far my S1500's are from my MLP. Going to try to keep them equidistant from MLP. Really like my stands and hope that they make my Ultras sound even better. Will find out soon enough. Thanks for your help. Wished you lived closer.....LOL!!!!!

Cheers,

Phil
No worries, when you get it setup give me a shout and I can work out the basic delays to start with.
Have fun getting everything setup, it's half the fun of this hobby...The other half of the fun, enjoying the results...
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post #25889 of 52994 Old 04-13-2016, 09:51 PM
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No worries, when you get it setup give me a shout and I can work out the basic delays to start with.
Have fun getting everything setup, it's half the fun of this hobby...The other half of the fun, enjoying the results...
Yeah, it is a lot of fun. But, also somewhat time consuming. Finding the time is a bit of a problem as of late. Seems like there just is NOT enough time. Then, when I get some time am too worn out to really get much done.....LOL!!!! Certainly, not getting any younger either. But, hey appreciate the help.

Cheers,

Phil
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post #25890 of 52994 Old 04-14-2016, 06:54 AM
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I'm sorry for being lazy and not reading your previous post but instead of buying 2 V1500's why not buy a single V3600I now and add a V1500 or V1800 later if need be.
Hmm that's an interesting option. Ideally I'd like at least duals but that beast is intriguing. The V300i pairs alright with even the V1500?
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