Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 875 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26221 of 53155 Old 05-10-2016, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
also the sub distance tweak also eliminates that null from floor/ceiling bounce
I am curious how much cancellation there would be above the crossover point with tower speakers and subs crossed at 80 Hz. There is quite a bit of power in the 100 - 200 Hz range with regard to the chest thump. I need to stop procrastinating and make some panels for my ceiling. It's impossible to find Rockboard 80 or OC 703 near me and shipping is outrageous.

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post #26222 of 53155 Old 05-10-2016, 04:35 PM
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Yeah Climber I'm in the same boat. My next move is room treatments. My problem is I find room treatments to be boring where as subwoofers and speakers are fun and exciting. However, I know room treatments are important to the overall response of the room so I know I need to take this step. And I also know that room treatments can transform your HT.

But I would much rather buy two V1800's and flank my MLP with them and see if I can get the serious mid bass punch make my pants flap like a flag in a hurricane.
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post #26223 of 53155 Old 05-10-2016, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kelly.mcaloney View Post
Anyone tell a fella how to get a drop ceiling to stop vibrating
Anyone tell a fella how to get a garage door from rattling all over the place as dual v3600's do their thing? Lol

Just got my twins last Thursday but have only been able to play with them twice (Star Wars TFA and Sicario). Have them set up in the front next to my mains in the 1/4 wall placement along the front wall and about two feet into the room. Have not used my anti-mode yet. Running with gain in the 9:00 position and sub trim at -3. Master volume level at -2. I have a Yamaha 3040 so YPAO wouldn't help me in those low bass levels and I usually run my gear without room correction. I like to tune by ear, using speaker placement and minimal room treatments if needed. Currently I have no room treatments in place because we just finished the room and I wanted to get set up first and make an assessment from there. Watching Star Wars TFA was crazy...lots of bass in this flick and things all over the garage were rattling like crazy. Even made my center channel travel across my makeshift ledge....had to pull out the blue tick and will be getting a dedicated stand this weekend. Someone else posted about the effortlessness of these bad boys and that was the immediate impression I got. I had bottomed out my previous subs a few times and would often get port chuffing as well. Tom was very confident that these issues would not be present with the V3600's and now I know why he was so confident. Finally I can dial in a movie, listen to it hot, and not worry about keeping my finger on the master volume button out of fear of bottoming out or sub farts, lol. Everyone was oohing and ahhhing as those bass scenes ripped across the room and even the kids were smiling with amazement. Great way to start off a relationship and I am excited about getting some more time this weekend to tweak and play with my Hekyll and Jekyll twins a bit more until I am satisfied with their placement, adjustments, and ultimate sound. Then I can truly sit back and enjoy my favorite artistic medium....the movies. Will post more impressions and music listening as well in the next few days. Thanks Tom...you weren't just trying to make the sale....you were providing me with truthful/useful information and God Bless my PSA family 😎
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post #26224 of 53155 Old 05-10-2016, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yup, more midbass slam for sure, and my L/C/R just sound clearer...a bit less "strained" (not that you can really strain the PSA speakers ).
This is what I noticed almost immediately. I'm running an AVR that is rated at 40- 45 watts/channel. But I noticed the extra clarity at volume levels well below where my AVR starts to run out of juice. Both movies and music seem to benefit.

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post #26225 of 53155 Old 05-10-2016, 07:16 PM
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just curious why dynamat hasn't been recommended for the ceiling rattles? seems like it would be the perfect solution as it has a bit of weight to it and is obviously a rattle killer. seems it would be easy to cut it to fit the tiles and make it easy to reinstall. i know it does a great job of removing rattles from a noisy car environment....why wouldn't it work here?
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post #26226 of 53155 Old 05-10-2016, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Yeah Climber I'm in the same boat. My next move is room treatments. My problem is I find room treatments to be boring where as subwoofers and speakers are fun and exciting. However, I know room treatments are important to the overall response of the room so I know I need to take this step. And I also know that room treatments can transform your HT.

But I would much rather buy two V1800's and flank my MLP with them and see if I can get the serious mid bass punch make my pants flap like a flag in a hurricane.
I feel ya Hop. I'd much rather buy quad V3600s and get heart-stopping bass than fiddle around with acoustic treatments too. The only problem is that I am a poor man in a rich man's hobby. C'est la vie.

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post #26227 of 53155 Old 05-10-2016, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by brahman12 View Post
Anyone tell a fella how to get a garage door from rattling all over the place as dual v3600's do their thing? Lol
I think garage door removal might be the only way to stop dual v3600s from making them rattle. You could try nylon rollers and acoustic batting/insulation in the door panels. Just remember, if you add anything to your garage door, the springs will have to be adjusted or upgraded to prevent them from snapping and also prevent the door opener gear from shearing off. I learned that one the hard way...
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post #26228 of 53155 Old 05-10-2016, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by brahman12 View Post
Anyone tell a fella how to get a garage door from rattling all over the place as dual v3600's do their thing? Lol

Just got my twins last Thursday but have only been able to play with them twice (Star Wars TFA and Sicario). Have them set up in the front next to my mains in the 1/4 wall placement along the front wall and about two feet into the room. Have not used my anti-mode yet. Running with gain in the 9:00 position and sub trim at -3. Master volume level at -2. I have a Yamaha 3040 so YPAO wouldn't help me in those low bass levels and I usually run my gear without room correction. I like to tune by ear, using speaker placement and minimal room treatments if needed. Currently I have no room treatments in place because we just finished the room and I wanted to get set up first and make an assessment from there. Watching Star Wars TFA was crazy...lots of bass in this flick and things all over the garage were rattling like crazy. Even made my center channel travel across my makeshift ledge....had to pull out the blue tick and will be getting a dedicated stand this weekend.
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
I think garage door removal might be the only way to stop dual v3600s from making them rattle. You could try nylon rollers and acoustic batting/insulation in the door panels. Just remember, if you add anything to your garage door, the springs will have to be adjusted or upgraded to prevent them from snapping and also prevent the door opener gear from shearing off. I learned that one the hard way...
Maybe try some of that thin felt material used to put on the bottom of Knick-knacks to keep from scratching furniture?

I think you can buy it in sheets and cut out pieces you need.

Edit: didn't mean to put the whole quote but it didn't erase what I deleted
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Last edited by laserjock II; 05-10-2016 at 09:54 PM.
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post #26229 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 05:04 AM
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OK, feeling like a nimrod right now but I need to be clearer on when you are saying that you are running the sub hot.

Are you talking about how much of an increase in trim level at the avr after room eq has been run? This is what I always thought of but if so then running 10-12 hot will almost always put the trim into the +0 range.
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post #26230 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 06:33 AM
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Yes...all you do is calibrate so room correction sets the sub -12 and adjust the trim to 0 manually...that is +12db hot.
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post #26231 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by brahman12 View Post
Anyone tell a fella how to get a garage door from rattling all over the place as dual v3600's do their thing? Lol

😎
LOL… I was just thinking about you this morning and wondering how you liked your new V3600's. As you are discovering, it's really hard to adequately describe how well these subs perform. It's like trying to describe being in a minor earthquake. You need to experience it to appreciate it. The bottom line is simply this… The V3600 is A LOT of FUN! I look forward to reading more about your thoughts once you get them dialed in.

Congratulations once again.
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post #26232 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Yes...all you do is calibrate so room correction sets the sub -12 and adjust the trim to 0 manually...that is +12db hot.
Yep. But I try and keep mine calibrated to hit somewhere -11 to -9. The reason I do this (and correct me if my logic is wrong) is because Audyssey is maxed out at -12 so for all I know it should really be -20 but Audyssey won't set it that low. If I dial it in at say -11 then I really know where I stand and can adjust accordingly.

I don't know how YPAO or other calibration systems do things so YMMV.

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post #26233 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Yep. But I try and keep mine calibrated to hit somewhere -11 to -9. The reason I do this (and correct me if my logic is wrong) is because Audyssey is maxed out at -12 so for all I know it should really be -20 but Audyssey won't set it that low. If I dial it in at say -11 then I really know where I stand and can adjust accordingly.

I don't know how YPAO or other calibration systems do things so YMMV.
Yea but all you have to do is get to -11 and adjust up a very small amount until calibration hits -12.. I personally shoot for -6 and adjust to 0 because my wireless devices work best around 0.
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post #26234 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Yes...all you do is calibrate so room correction sets the sub -12 and adjust the trim to 0 manually...that is +12db hot.
Ok, so not that much of a nimrod as I am on the same page.

Now for me to get the avr to set up below zero I have to set the subs gains above 75DB to make that happen. That being said, my latest calibration had the subs at about 82-83db and it still set up at -4.75. Is this normal and how high do you guys have to go to get a calibration low enough into -10 or lower?

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post #26235 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 09:43 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Ok, so not that much of a nimrod as I am on the same page.



Now for me to get the avr to set up below zero I have to set the subs gains above 75DB to make that happen. That being said, my latest calibration had the subs at about 82-83db and it still set up at -4.75. Is this normal and how high do you guys have to go to get a calibration low enough into -10 or lower?


I think the AVR plays the test tone during calibration at 75db no matter what and it is measuring the amount of power from the AVR that is needed to play back the tone. A very minor change on the ice power amps makes a big swing in the AVR levels during calibration. The gain is sensitive on them.

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post #26236 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
@Alanp, I just went into the ULF thread and calculated your scorecard using 5000cf. You have a SI of 8. 5000 / 8 = a ULF score of 625 which is a 4.5 star system. You should be reference capable down into the 10hz range and possibly lower if your signal chain is not rolling off.
Going strictly by the ULF score, he is only reference capable to 12.5Hz as the calculator has no 10hz estimate for the v3600.

Real world he might get more, but from a score standpoint no 10hz and below.
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post #26237 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
I think the AVR plays the test tone during calibration at 75db no matter what and it is measuring the amount of power from the AVR that is needed to play back the tone. A very minor change on the ice power amps makes a big swing in the AVR levels during calibration. The gain is sensitive on them.
The way I understand it is that the AVR is trying to get back to 75db thus giving the negative trim levels. So, yeah I am adjusting the gain levels up to get the lower negative trim.

What I am getting at is that the measured db from an spl meter is well over 80db. It does make sense to me, just wanted to confirm that I am doing this correctly. If 83ish db at the SPL meter is getting me -4.75, then what are you guys seeing to get to -10 to -12? Or do you even care at that point?
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post #26238 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Going strictly by the ULF score, he is only reference capable to 12.5Hz as the calculator has no 10hz estimate for the v3600.

Real world he might get more, but from a score standpoint no 10hz and below.
I don't have a V3600...dual T-18s + dual S3000s.


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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
The way I understand it is that the AVR is trying to get back to 75db thus giving the negative trim levels. So, yeah I am adjusting the gain levels up to get the lower negative trim.

What I am getting at is that the measured db from an spl meter is well over 80db. It does make sense to me, just wanted to confirm that I am doing this correctly. If 83ish db at the SPL meter is getting me -4.75, then what are you guys seeing to get to -10 to -12? Or do you even care at that point?
Like I said, when I posted about how "hot" I was running my subs, it was as measured by REW. In order to run 14dB hot, and stay under 0 on the sub trim, I had to boost the gain on the subs themselves by a good amount (post-Audyssey).

I typically set the gains so I am getting about 82-83dB on the Audyssey SPL meter, it then comes back with trims around -10 or -11. If you want to get a lower initial trim, just keep turning up the gain on the sub and re-running the first Audyssey mic position until you get where you want to be, then run the full Audyssey cal.
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post #26239 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 11:00 AM
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Sounds good and is what I have been doing. Thanks

Regarding adjusting the gain post Audyssey (or ARC in my case), I thought that was a no no.
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post #26240 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 11:05 AM
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Sounds good and is what I have been doing. Thanks

Regarding adjusting the gain post Audyssey (or ARC in my case), I thought that was a no no.
Adjusting gain post-cal will not harm anything, it's just not as easy to know exactly where you're at like it is with the sub trim settings.

My subs are gain-matched, so I just take my hand held SPL meter and set it on the floor about an inch from the front of the sub and adjust the gain by as many dBs as I need. This method works great and is just about spot on every time.
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post #26241 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 11:05 AM
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I don't have a V3600...dual T-18s + dual S3000s.
Oops, my bad! Then @basshead81 is spot on.
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post #26242 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 11:25 AM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
The way I understand it is that the AVR is trying to get back to 75db thus giving the negative trim levels. So, yeah I am adjusting the gain levels up to get the lower negative trim.



What I am getting at is that the measured db from an spl meter is well over 80db. It does make sense to me, just wanted to confirm that I am doing this correctly. If 83ish db at the SPL meter is getting me -4.75, then what are you guys seeing to get to -10 to -12? Or do you even care at that point?


You are measuring the internal test tones or something external? The Dolby Atmos disc has test tones and they read 10db hotter than the avr's internal test tones do in my case, 85db vs 75db

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post #26243 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
You are measuring the internal test tones or something external? The Dolby Atmos disc has test tones and they read 10db hotter than the avr's internal test tones do in my case, 85db vs 75db
Level matching 2 subs to prepare for ARC Eq
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post #26244 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Level matching 2 subs to prepare for ARC Eq
Yes but what are you using to produce the test tone? In my experience it makes a difference with the output spl. That's all I was saying. Reading near 85db can be correct for some test discs.

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post #26245 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
Yes but what are you using to produce the test tone? In my experience it makes a difference with the output spl. That's all I was saying. Reading near 85db can be correct for some test discs.
Ahhh, understand now. Using the avr for test tones at the time I am referring to.
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post #26246 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Another often overlooked variable in this is the way the front/left speakers are affected by first reflections. Floor/ceiling "bounce" along with the side wall proximity can all lead to various(and sometimes severe) cancellations in the 100-400hz range. The higher you bump up the crossover point in the receiver the more likely you'll minimize this.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Words of wisdom for sure. With dual subs I think the 80/100 Hz and under is pretty easy to get nicely flattened out, but above 80/100 can be a much bigger challenge. And I definitely agree that improving this area has a big impact on overall sound quality/chest slam at spirited levels. I have come to appreciate, the more I learn, what I consider to be PSA's balanced approach to bass. In other words, they don't produce extreme high excursion low bass monsters at the expense of mid and upper bass output, which is an inferior product imo. They strike a fine balance of good output across the board while maintaining excellent mid and upper bass output....something I have come to appreciate more and more as I dabble on the DIY side of things. To this day, a single original XS30 has produced some of the most impressive bass for music in my room that I have heard. I don't think I found its limits on music content! I imagine some of their newer, more capable offerings are just astounding in this regard.

So Tom, how about a kick ass $5-$600 sub that plays loud and proud down to 30 Hz or so? Bet you would sell them faster than you could build them.
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Last edited by bear123; 05-11-2016 at 07:51 PM.
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post #26247 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 09:04 PM
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I have come to appreciate, the more I learn, what I consider to be PSA's balanced approach to bass. In other words, they don't produce extreme high excursion low bass monsters at the expense of mid and upper bass output, which is an inferior product imo. They strike a fine balance of good output across the board while maintaining excellent mid and upper bass output....something I have come to appreciate more and more as I dabble on the DIY side of things. To this day, a single original XS30 has produced some of the most impressive bass for music in my room that I have heard. I don't think I found its limits on music content! I imagine some of their newer, more capable offerings are just astounding in this regard.
Well said Bear. One thing I've always loved about my PSA subs is their ability to really deliver the goods when it comes to the low bass in movies and still be able to reproduce music wonderfully.

Making a sub that simply pounds out LFE content with high excursion drivers really isn't all that difficult. And really a sub like that is just a one trick pony in that it only does one thing well… the LFE of movies. But there is so much more to bass than LFE.

I'm very happy PSA has a balanced approach to subwoofer design and makes subs that can do so much more than just low bass. PSA subs can easily handle the LFE of movies but just as importantly they also deliver powerful mid and upper bass… making them great for music. And for the people out there who may think music isn't important, stop and listen to the accompanying soundtrack to your favorite movies… music plays throughout.

So I really appreciate a balanced approach to subwoofer design and that's exactly what Tom and Jim do extremely well.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

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post #26248 of 53155 Old 05-11-2016, 09:45 PM
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post #26249 of 53155 Old 05-12-2016, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Words of wisdom for sure. With dual subs I think the 80/100 Hz and under is pretty easy to get nicely flattened out, but above 80/100 can be a much bigger challenge. And I definitely agree that improving this area has a big impact on overall sound quality/chest slam at spirited levels. I have come to appreciate, the more I learn, what I consider to be PSA's balanced approach to bass. In other words, they don't produce extreme high excursion low bass monsters at the expense of mid and upper bass output, which is an inferior product imo. They strike a fine balance of good output across the board while maintaining excellent mid and upper bass output....something I have come to appreciate more and more as I dabble on the DIY side of things. To this day, a single original XS30 has produced some of the most impressive bass for music in my room that I have heard. I don't think I found its limits on music content! I imagine some of their newer, more capable offerings are just astounding in this regard.

So Tom, how about a kick ass $5-$600 sub that plays loud and proud down to 30 Hz or so? Bet you would sell them faster than you could build them.
It is amazing to see how many people on AVS forums want 1 or 2 good subs, and have a budget between $1000 and $1200. Have to think that bear123 is right with this one Tom, you probably couldn't keep up with the demand for a sub in that price range with PSA on it.
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post #26250 of 53155 Old 05-12-2016, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

So Tom, how about a kick ass $5-$600 sub that plays loud and proud down to 30 Hz or so? Bet you would sell them faster than you could build them.
Hi Bear, thanks for the comments.

Per the $600 sub,

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html

You're not going to do any better than those at $1150(?) for the pair delivered.

Keeping everything on USA soil, the math doesn't work. If/when we go vertical and bring all the cabinet and driver assembly in house---MAYBE. There's so much added cost versus mass produced in china and not just on the major components. Little things like inner and outer boxing. We could get a complete inner and outer boxing set with a TON of artwork for like five bucks per unit. Here, about thirty five bucks. Sell a few hundred units a month? JUST the difference in boxing cost = $108,000 a year.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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