Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 916 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #27451 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rdb1276 View Post
Tom did all that for me here is what he said


Reference level can require up to 118dB(ish) from the subwoofer(s) at the key seating position. Now, add your 3dB( high bass level calibration) to that and we get 121dB. Next, let's say -12 is the loudest listening level. So it would be 121 - 12, or 109dB.


NOW---we have to look at the DYN-EQ graph too.


at -12 you can add another 5-7, maybe 9dB of EQ(boost) in the 15-25hz range.


So now I'd say we're back up to the 115-118dB range.


That will be very close to the limits of the dual S3600i(which will be 115-118dB in the 15-25hz range).


If you want some extra "safety net" the V3600i will give you that for sure. But for 99% of your listening I don't think you would be able to tell dual S3600i from dual V3600i.
Agree but remember not all of us use Dynamic EQ. I personally think it adds way too much boost on the low end and if you want a house curve then external eq such as a balanced mini dsp would be a better approach.
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post #27452 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
First before making that assumption about max output, we really need to crunch the numbers. For example, In my 2400^3 room a pair of S3600i's will net me reference capability down to 16hz and potentially lower depending on room gain. How many here routinely listen @ levels above 115db?

My guess is that in most rooms under 3000^3, a pair of S3600i's will be all most would need and the extra output around port tune of the V3600 would go unoticed. As the room climbs above 3500^3 and room gain is less persistent then the V3600i definitely makes more sense. Actually it makes sense anytime, if you can acommodate its size.. I am just trying to make a strong case for the S3600i...it's no slouch!
Hey bass,

for a newbie like me who purely went off the "need" (haha, rather desire) for more, how exactly does one crunch the numbers to determine "reference" capabilities? I have attached the room layout from my HT, which is 100% above ground and only consisting of drywall, windows and open room to the rest of the house.

I am really curious to hear this from the pro's!

Thanks in advance,

K
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post #27453 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rdb1276 View Post
I have 2 Definitive Technology powerfield 1800's (18 inch sealed) that I have had for 21 years. they still sound great but think I'm missing a lot with what newer subs can do. So its not that I prefer sealed, it these are the only subs I have owned.


Tom said the 2 S3600I's would be like 8 of the DT1800's and the V3600I"s would be like 12


so I just got to figure out how much more bass I want
I know that either will be a huge improvement to what I have now
To be perfectly honest regardless of the way you decide to go, once you hear the new subs you're going to be sitting in your seat bug eyed, mouth hanging open and a pile of drool on the floor. Either set of subs is going to blow you away.

Personally I would go with dual S3600's and see how I liked them. Then if I decided I wanted more (which I doubt I would) I could always add a third or fourth down the road when the wallet recovers.

Anyway… it seems from all the posts that most of us agree either set of subs would be great. Don't let analysis paralysis stop you from ordering.

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post #27454 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Grimm View Post
Hey bass,

for a newbie like me who purely went off the "need" (haha, rather desire) for more, how exactly does one crunch the numbers to determine "reference" capabilities? I have attached the room layout from my HT, which is 100% above ground and only consisting of drywall, windows and open room to the rest of the house.

I am really curious to hear this from the pro's!

Thanks in advance,

K
Your room comes in very close to mine @ 2500^3 roughly with the same size opening. According to the ULF thread you should be reference capable down to 16hz and fairly strong down into the 12-14hz range with 108-110db on tap in that region. Not to mention all the mid bass slam those efficient 18" drivers produce. I would say you are set for 95% of all source material in existence.
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post #27455 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rdb1276 View Post
Mark, I have no idea yet. I was all set to get the S3600I's until reading on here seems everyone went with the V3600I's instead. I have never owned a vented/ported sub. Always had sealed.
My media room is 3000 ft³ and upstairs with a 6" raised wood subfloor. I went sealed (Dual S1500s) because I wanted placement flexibility and I knew it would be easy to add more if necessary (I am considering adding another S1500, 15s, or S3000i). However, If I had the space for vented in/near the front stage I would have gone V1500s.

I have past experience with vented and they can sound great with music. Don't think sealed always equals better. In our downstairs den, I have an Energy S12.3 (same as the Mirage Omni S12) midwall behind a couch. This sub ranked near the top of the old Tom V/Tom Nousaine (R.I.P.) list. This room is open to the entire house (open concept) including 25' vaulted ceiling. I have not let anyone step foot in the media room (I am installing ceiling speakers now), not until it is finished. So movies are viewed downstairs. The Energy sub is crossed over at 90 Hz and blends perfectly. Company always exclaims about the bass. They think it is being produced by the 4 Mirage towers (2 OMD-15 & 2 OSv2-fs). I just smile and don't discuss the sub unless someone specifically asks.

If I were you, the decision would come down to: do I want placement flexibility (S3600i) or will I be happy with corner placement (V3600i). Would the V3600s be stuck in the corner or could you move away from either wall a few feet in either direction? If they can move, personally I would go V3600i. If not you can always add to the S3600s if you need more headroom (which you probably won't).

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post #27456 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Your room comes in very close to mine @ 2500^3 roughly with the same size opening. According to the ULF thread you should be reference capable down to 16hz and fairly strong down into the 12-14hz range with 108-110db on tap in that region. Not to mention all the mid bass slam those efficient 18" drivers produce. I would say you are set for 95% of all source material in existence.
What is this ULF thread you speak of?

Power Sound Audio S7201 Quad 18" 4000W Sealed Subwoofer - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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post #27457 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 02:07 PM
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Basshead it's a good thing we have you to keep us honest because through time I've noticed you are usually the voice of reason around here. When you stop to think about what have in our rooms it's obvious that we are a little on the extreme side.
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post #27458 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 02:12 PM
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What is this ULF thread you speak of?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...ulf-score.html
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post #27459 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 02:26 PM
 
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What is this ULF thread you speak of?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...ulf-score.html
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post #27460 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 02:26 PM
 
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damn!
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post #27461 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
My media room is 3000 ft³ and upstairs with a 6" raised wood subfloor. I went sealed (Dual S1500s) because I wanted placement flexibility and I knew it would be easy to add more if necessary (I am considering adding another S1500, 15s, or S3000i). However, If I had the space for vented in/near the front stage I would have gone V1500s.

I have past experience with vented and they can sound great with music. Don't think sealed always equals better. In our downstairs den, I have an Energy S12.3 (same as the Mirage Omni S12) midwall behind a couch. This sub ranked near the top of the old Tom V/Tom Nousaine (R.I.P.) list. This room is open to the entire house (open concept) including 25' vaulted ceiling. I have not let anyone step foot in the media room (I am installing ceiling speakers now), not until it is finished. So movies are viewed downstairs. The Energy sub is crossed over at 90 Hz and blends perfectly. Company always exclaims about the bass. They think it is being produced by the 4 Mirage towers (2 OMD-15 & 2 OSv2-fs). I just smile and don't discuss the sub unless someone specifically asks.

If I were you, the decision would come down to: do I want placement flexibility (S3600i) or will I be happy with corner placement (V3600i). Would the V3600s be stuck in the corner or could you move away from either wall a few feet in either direction? If they can move, personally I would go V3600i. If not you can always add to the S3600s if you need more headroom (which you probably won't).

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post #27462 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 06:32 PM
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damn!
LOL… Fast but not fast enough.

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post #27463 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 09:09 PM
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Have there been any output comparisons with the triax, cap s2 and maraina 24? Just curious
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post #27464 of 52381 Old 07-13-2016, 09:10 PM
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Duh I ment t18..... still living in the past haha
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post #27465 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 12:39 AM
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I just received a MiniDSP 2x4 to eq my s3600is. I'm setting the input level to avoid clipping, using Terminator Genisys nuclear war scene and Edge of tomorrow intro. Is there anything else that has more bass output than those two that I should try? I've had a Behringer DSP1124 in my system for the last week and those two scenes are the only time I've noticed the signal meter going into the orange.
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post #27466 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 03:23 AM
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EoT opening scene is probably one of the worst movies to use as a demo. Nothing impressive at all about that scene. Try these:

War of the Worlds pod emergence scene(greatest of all time)
Olympus has Fallen Washington monument scene.
WWZ grenade scene...short but sweet.
Underworld Awakening giant lycan scene.
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post #27467 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 03:42 AM
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Not looking for demo scenes, i'm trying to clip the input of the minidsp.

Forogot about WWZ, that was the other one that lit up the bfd.

Eot intro is pretty impressive when the entire house is shaking.
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post #27468 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 03:47 AM
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EoT opening scene is probably one of the worst movies to use as a demo. Nothing impressive at all about that scene. Try these:

War of the Worlds pod emergence scene(greatest of all time)
Olympus has Fallen Washington monument scene.
WWZ grenade scene...short but sweet.
Underworld Awakening giant lycan scene.
Maybe add:
Flight of the Phoenix- Barrel Roll
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post #27469 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 04:45 AM
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After playing around with the MiniDSP for a bit, I've decided it won't work in my system. I'm limited to -17db on the master volume to avoid clipping in some of the scenes mentioned above. I could possibly get another 2db of headroom by bottoming out my sub trim but it leaves me nowhere to go if I get a movie with hot LFE.

So I tried setting the room size control on the S3600is to 12 o'clock, run an Audyssey calibration, then move the room size controls back to large. On the REW graph the blue trace is room size at 12 o'clock, red trace is room size large (That's 2 x S3600i in a 4800 ft^3 space).
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post #27470 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 07:43 AM
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post #27471 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 07:48 AM
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Did you get the balanced Mini DSP?
No, i got the unbalanced, the balanced one would have been a better fit.
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post #27472 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 07:54 AM
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I figured as much. Fwiw The balanced does not have the clipping issues from my understanding.
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post #27473 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 09:01 AM
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After playing around with the MiniDSP for a bit, I've decided it won't work in my system. I'm limited to -17db on the master volume to avoid clipping in some of the scenes mentioned above. I could possibly get another 2db of headroom by bottoming out my sub trim but it leaves me nowhere to go if I get a movie with hot LFE.

So I tried setting the room size control on the S3600is to 12 o'clock, run an Audyssey calibration, then move the room size controls back to large. On the REW graph the blue trace is room size at 12 o'clock, red trace is room size large (That's 2 x S3600i in a 4800 ft^3 space).
The way I got around the minidsp clipping issue was to boost the 7/5.0 channels and then increase the gain on the sub and now my reference level is -5, if you also use dynamic eq change the offset to 5
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post #27474 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 09:15 AM
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The way I got around the minidsp clipping issue was to boost the 7/5.0 channels and then increase the gain on the sub and now my reference level is -5, if you also use dynamic eq change the offset to 5
That could work.
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post #27475 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 09:19 AM
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I figured as much. Fwiw The balanced does not have the clipping issues from my understanding.
When using the balanced model do you use an rca output at the avr? (I also have balanced outputs available).
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post #27476 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 10:50 AM
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Use balanced connections when possible but you can still use RCA adapter's if need be. The main issue is the balanced DSP has more output ⚡which helps prevent signal clipping. If you noticed when using the standard unbalanced DSP, output drops significantly with it in the chain and you have to offset that by turning up the gain on the subwoofer. This introduces signal clipping at higher volumes...it may or may not be a issue for some folks depending on how loud they listen.

I did what Jwtallguy suggested and that helped get me close to reference without clipping but it was right there.
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post #27477 of 52381 Old 07-14-2016, 11:22 AM
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Use balanced connections when possible but you can still use RCA adapter's if need be. The main issue is the balanced DSP has more output ⚡which helps prevent signal clipping. If you noticed when using the standard unbalanced DSP, output drops significantly with it in the chain and you have to offset that by turning up the gain on the subwoofer. This introduces signal clipping at higher volumes...it may or may not be a issue for some folks depending on how loud they listen.

I did what Jwtallguy suggested and that helped get me close to reference without clipping but it was right there.
I thought i read somewhere that the balanced output from the prepro puts out a higher voltage than the rca output.

The lower output from the dsp shouldn't be a problem, i have a lot of room to move on the sub gain dial (although i didn't get as far as changing the sub gain). From what i read the input clipping was a more common problem, i didn't find anything about output clipping.

After doing the recalibration with the room size control offset i don't think there's any need to go back to an external eq unit, i have a better response now than what i previously had with the behringer eq.

The dsp might come in handy in the future if i add more subs but for now i can get by without it.
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post #27478 of 52381 Old 07-15-2016, 03:03 AM
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Excellent, thanks for the recommendation.

I talked to Tom on Friday and ordered the V3600i. It got shipped out on Friday and hopefully will arrive sometime this coming week. I have a feeling that I'll be setting it up next weekend! Can't wait to hear the difference it makes in my system!
My V3600i arrived last week and the first reaction I had was that it is huge! In fact my family were wondering whether I had bought another set of floor standing speakers instead of just one sub! I was glad that my sister and family were visiting me over the weekend because I got my nephew to help me unpack the sub and get it into place. It would have been tough for me to do that by myself. However, because I had to play host over the weekend, I could not get it hooked up and calibrated until yesterday evening. I took a very preliminary reading using REW after I calibrated the system with Audyssey, and the new sub definitely filled in a huge dip that I was seeing in the 25Hz range and another smaller dip in the 80Hz range. But I still have a dip at the 150Hz range and the curve did not look flat at all. Because the V3600i is such a huge monster(), there are not many choices as to where it can be placed in my HT. But I'll try a couple of different locations and see what readings I get on REW.

I plan to fire it up this evening and watch a few "bass heavy" movies. I'm looking forward to being blown away!
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post #27479 of 52381 Old 07-15-2016, 03:44 AM
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Cal68,
You will be blown away, as once I received the V3600, I watched movies over again that I had watched before, knowing that I was going to be amazed with the new addition. Enjoy your sub and all the benefits it brings to you in your home.!
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post #27480 of 52381 Old 07-15-2016, 03:49 AM
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