Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 990 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #29671 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 06:21 PM
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That's totally fine.

George


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi George,

Thanks for taking the time to share you thoughts on the V3600i. Do you mind if we put this on our testimonial page/facebook?

Tom V.
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post #29672 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Agreed. The colors are not useful as a bias light. Ideally, for it to work properly, it needs to be 6500 kelvin (daylight) or as close as possible.
Zeus, when I got my first plasma I tried viewing in the dark and really didn't care for dark environment and at the same time didn't like the room bright as well. The problem for me was when watching TV my attention would wonder all around the frame of the TV against the back wall and my eyes would shift back and forth between wall and screen. Cnet advised a natural daylight bulb around two feet in length with 6500 Kelvin. To make a long story short I put the bulb behind the screen and dimmed the lights and it just seemed like the edges of the TV disappeared and the image was suspended in space.

I used other bulbs prior to the 6500 Kelvin daylight models and did not have the same effect. I still have that bulb and it's comparable to these.

http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/Ideal-Lume.htm

Just thought I would mention this as it has really improved my viewing experience, hoping a PJ is in the near future.
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post #29673 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 07:10 PM
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@Jim (Hop), when you hooked up your XV15SE how did you orient the the sub preouts, did you have both 3600s on sub 1 with a splitter and the 15 on sub 2, if not please advise. While I have yours or anybody else's attention I'd like to ask a question. I have SUB EQ and one V1800 is connected to sub 1 and the second to sub 2, I may be acquiring two much smaller subs from my brother who has no interest anymore in HT. What would be the best way to hook these four subs up, split sub 1 to the 1800s and then split sub 2 to the much smaller subs? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, and Jim stay with the XV15SE NF and start saving up for your Atmos speakers............

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #29674 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
start saving up for your Atmos speakers............

Cheers Jeffrey
Has there been word on the smaller PSA speakers? I'm holding out on Atmos for those, can't image what would go better with PSA speakers then more PSA speakers!

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post #29675 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 08:09 PM
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@TomVo dhanel Are there any pics of the S1500 next to the S1800? I'm trying to get a sense for how big the S1800 would feel in my space since you have that great sale going on. I was going to cut out a box to simulate it but my kids won't let me touch their castle lol.


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post #29676 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Kentucky View Post
Has there been word on the smaller PSA speakers? I'm holding out on Atmos for those, can't image what would go better with PSA speakers then more PSA speakers!
Don't quote me on this but I have a strong intuition that they will be available by end of year, hopefully will make for some nice stocking stuffer's..........
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post #29677 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Yup, that about covers it..

Same amp(even the same amp DSP program), same driver, same effective enclosure volume.

I get asked every day why the difference price given the above. The main reason is the grill. They are surprisingly costly to manufacture to our tolerances.

Tom V.
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Tom, can the 15S be placed on its side if need be?

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post #29678 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sunPin View Post
Tom, can the 15S be placed on its side if need be?
I don't think putting a down firing sub on it's side would yield any better results, I could be wrong though, I'm under the impression that the floor is the boundary from which the (output) gain is achieved.
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post #29679 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sunPin View Post
Tom, can the 15S be placed on its side if need be?
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I don't think putting a down firing sub on it's side would yield any better results, I could be wrong though, I'm under the impression that the floor is the boundary from which the (output) gain is achieved.
I think it's room dependent, many get the best results with their front firing subs facing into the room, while others get their best results with them facing into a wall. I don't see an issue with putting a down firing sub on its side, but measuring the results with REW will confirm whether it is the best way to go in your room.
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post #29680 of 52630 Old 11-15-2016, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by gbobrin View Post
I'm sure that I could dial things in to be even better. I haven't set up REW, and I'm not using any Audyssey or other processing (I can't find the microphone for my 4-year-old entry-level receiver). But I don't see the need; it sounds great now.
With 2ch you don't need any room correction. I have Yamahas in two rooms and a Marantz in ny media room and PURE DIRECT can't be beat for 2ch (unless you need the AV processors crossover for a subwoofer which you don't).
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post #29681 of 52630 Old 11-16-2016, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I don't think putting a down firing sub on it's side would yield any better results, I could be wrong though, I'm under the impression that the floor is the boundary from which the (output) gain is achieved.


Ah, for me it's more about space constraints than performance. If I need to fit it underneath my center channel, it needs to be <18" high.

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post #29682 of 52630 Old 11-16-2016, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@Jim (Hop), when you hooked up your XV15SE how did you orient the the sub preouts, did you have both 3600s on sub 1 with a splitter and the 15 on sub 2, if not please advise. While I have yours or anybody else's attention I'd like to ask a question. I have SUB EQ and one V1800 is connected to sub 1 and the second to sub 2, I may be acquiring two much smaller subs from my brother who has no interest anymore in HT. What would be the best way to hook these four subs up, split sub 1 to the 1800s and then split sub 2 to the much smaller subs? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, and Jim stay with the XV15SE NF and start saving up for your Atmos speakers............

Cheers Jeffrey
You always put the odd sub on its own sub output. If you have 4 sub's, then you put the 2 sub's that are equidistant on 1 one output and the vice versa.

Last edited by basshead81; 11-16-2016 at 06:27 AM.
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post #29683 of 52630 Old 11-16-2016, 06:24 AM
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Tom, can the 15S be placed on its side if need be?
Of course it can...S1500 is essentially the 15s but laying on its side.
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post #29684 of 52630 Old 11-16-2016, 10:28 AM
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Ordered the B-stock S-1500. It's been a hot minute since I've had a real sub in the house.
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post #29685 of 52630 Old 11-16-2016, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@Jim (Hop), when you hooked up your XV15SE how did you orient the the sub preouts, did you have both 3600s on sub 1 with a splitter and the 15 on sub 2, if not please advise. While I have yours or anybody else's attention I'd like to ask a question. I have SUB EQ and one V1800 is connected to sub 1 and the second to sub 2, I may be acquiring two much smaller subs from my brother who has no interest anymore in HT. What would be the best way to hook these four subs up, split sub 1 to the 1800s and then split sub 2 to the much smaller subs? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, and Jim stay with the XV15SE NF and start saving up for your Atmos speakers............

Cheers Jeffrey
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You always put the odd sub on its own sub output. If you have 4 sub's, then you put the 2 sub's that are equidistant on 1 one output and the vice versa.
If you have less capable subs in the system with SubEQ HT and you put the lesser sub(s) on a separate sub out, the auto-EQ will only EQ down to the -3dB point of the weakest sub(s).

That being said, if you have a fairly flat response before EQ below the -3dB point of the lesser sub, there is probably not much difference in the end result. But if you have issues that need EQ below where the lesser sub is -3dB, you would need to do that post calibration (e.g. MiniDSP).

If you y-split the signal to the lesser sub(s), the auto-EQ will still see the -3dB point of the better sub(s) and will EQ the low end as it should.

Both methods have their drawbacks, I suggest you try both and see what gives you the best results.
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post #29686 of 52630 Old 11-16-2016, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@Jim (Hop), when you hooked up your XV15SE how did you orient the the sub preouts, did you have both 3600s on sub 1 with a splitter and the 15 on sub 2, if not please advise. While I have yours or anybody else's attention I'd like to ask a question. I have SUB EQ and one V1800 is connected to sub 1 and the second to sub 2, I may be acquiring two much smaller subs from my brother who has no interest anymore in HT. What would be the best way to hook these four subs up, split sub 1 to the 1800s and then split sub 2 to the much smaller subs? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, and Jim stay with the XV15SE NF and start saving up for your Atmos speakers............

Cheers Jeffrey
I have the two V3600's on sub 1 and the XV15se on sub 2. The V3600's are not equidistant from the MLP but they are within a couple of feet (around 12 feet or so). The XV15se is next to the couch on the left hand side acting as an end table.

What I did was get the two V3600's dialed in with one another using REW and playing with the delays. Once I got them having the best combined response I could I plugged in the XV15se on it's own sub-out and ran Audyssey with XT32. Then I ran REW again to see how it looked. It was okay but I had a narrow but deep dip at 60Hz. I easily got rid of that by moving the XV15se's phase knob (post Audyssey) one click (to 8:00). That fixed the dip and gave me a pretty decent response with extension to 11Hz before starting to fall off and even then it's not the normal ported drop off, it's a relatively slow roll off. However, I do have a slight dip between 20 to 30 Hz which I still need to do some tweaking on to see if I can lessen it or maybe even eliminate it. It's not worth stressing over but I would like to see if I can do something about it.

One final note, I've always had a cruddy response around the cross over point. Not anymore, the NF sub seems to have smoothed that right out.
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Last edited by Hopinater; 11-16-2016 at 01:01 PM.
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post #29687 of 52630 Old 11-16-2016, 09:15 PM
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This would be the situation with the four subs, the two upfront L&R corners V1800s are equidistant to MLP and the two lesser sus at L&R of the MLP which would be equidistant to the MLP, so in other words the front 1800s would both be about 12' to the MLP and the two rear corners subs would be about 8' from the MLP and also be equidistant to MLP. The 2 front are equidistant to MLP and the rears (lesser subs) are equidistant to MLP just at different distances, fronts and backs..

I'm thinking I'm just wasting my time with the lesser subs, I have a very good FR now but like you said Hop when I take C+subs measurements I have this dip around 60-70Hz and subs only I don't. I think a better third sub is in order.

Like this, I think if I play around a little more and put the mini in I could boost that frequency range......

Here's what I mean



I then moved the subs around and tried to get the dip out and raised the XO to 100Hz and it helped but I lost some of that low 17Hz energy.

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post #29688 of 52630 Old 11-16-2016, 10:17 PM
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Jeffrey,

You are one of the most tenacious REW-graphing forum members I know of. You certainly seem to have much more patience than me!

That said, you surely are splitting hairs and many would kill for your room response, but that dip is certainly a good one in the 65Hz area. Any chance you can place something near-field? (within maybe a foot of your MLP?) When you're shooting for the gold here, placing a sub close by you is the best bet to removing room acoustics and wave interactions before you, and your mic, interpret them. Have you tried even just rotating your V1800, one at a time in 45 degree turns, in their current spots? Driver placement is key, not necessarily box orientation.

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post #29689 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 12:24 AM
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Hi All !
Thx for the replies / suggestions. Before I did audyssey as pr. manual - the pre subwoofer sound check was in the green zone - like 75-77 db. Read somewhere that there is a bug in the way this works - so you need to have it like 81-82 db for the subwoofer to be calibrated correctly ?
I did another try - subwoofer gain dial at 9-10 (think it's more like 10) - and now I'm in the red zone around 81 db. Final results now say subwoofer = - 9.5 db so I now got something to play with. Did raise subwoofer trim 6 db.
First impressions - music - sounds great - punchy and not boomy. Unable to get DEQ to work - sounds bad - no matter what I choose -15 db, -10 db.... just too boomy - so off with DEQ.
Movies - tried same movie - still netflix: monsters vs aliens - same scene - much much better - but maybe I'm a bassmaniac / insane / ears not ok (according to wife) - but I still like to raise it 3-6 db to get that "in your face" feeling - but only on movies and not music.


No matter music or movies - I'm still amazed how detailed this V1800 can play. I'm now ready for a demo for my brother in law - as he is a sealed guy - and true believer of the myths with ported vs sealed + the higher inch woofer the boomier it gets.


Also did use alot of time to get this to work with a 60 hz crossover as this was the case with my pb-13 ultra - but here - best crossover is 80 hz. When I try 60 hz - it's just too weak.


Looking forward to have the house by myself as I need to demo some of the bass monster movies... unlucky me - I got a wife that hates the sound of deep bass


Again - thank you guys !
Oh also thanks to you Tom for the link to a new Denon manual - my manual was 338 pages long - but they have made a new one - this one is like 378 pages - don't know what has changed but will try to compare.


Great thread by the way - check this every day - like the news pages !


/Thomas
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post #29690 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 07:16 AM
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Jeff, If you plan on incorporating weaker subs I would think about putting them closer than 8 feet away otherwise they will be over powered by the V1800s and you may notice a decay in your SQ when they give out when pushed hard while the V1800s keep going without breaking a sweat. If you go nearfield with them they may be able to keep up.
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post #29691 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomasdk1405 View Post
Hi All !
Thx for the replies / suggestions. Before I did audyssey as pr. manual - the pre subwoofer sound check was in the green zone - like 75-77 db. Read somewhere that there is a bug in the way this works - so you need to have it like 81-82 db for the subwoofer to be calibrated correctly ?
I did another try - subwoofer gain dial at 9-10 (think it's more like 10) - and now I'm in the red zone around 81 db. Final results now say subwoofer = - 9.5 db so I now got something to play with. Did raise subwoofer trim 6 db.
First impressions - music - sounds great - punchy and not boomy. Unable to get DEQ to work - sounds bad - no matter what I choose -15 db, -10 db.... just too boomy - so off with DEQ.
Movies - tried same movie - still netflix: monsters vs aliens - same scene - much much better - but maybe I'm a bassmaniac / insane / ears not ok (according to wife) - but I still like to raise it 3-6 db to get that "in your face" feeling - but only on movies and not music.

/Thomas
If this helps, Audyssey sets my subs at 9.5 and I'm running them 9dB hot. So even if your wife thinks you have problems around here you are normal.

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post #29692 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 02:43 PM
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Does anyone know if Audyssey uses a specific frequency when it runs the sub calibration? What I'm wondering is this - if Audyssey uses a specific frequency (lets say 40hz), and I have a 6db null at that frequency, if I set the sub to the desired 75db will the other frequencies be 6db too 'hot'? What got me thinking on this is my issue where I can't get the v3600 above 72db even with the gain all the way up, whereas my v1500 on the same output and with the same cable will hit 75db with the gain like 1/4 of the way up. The only thing I can think of is that maybe my v3600 is in a null (I haven't have much free time this week, so I haven't moved it around yet), which may cause other areas to be overly high?
Really just thinking out loud here, so feel free to correct me if I'm way off.

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post #29693 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kentucky View Post
Does anyone know if Audyssey uses a specific frequency when it runs the sub calibration? What I'm wondering is this - if Audyssey uses a specific frequency (lets say 40hz), and I have a 6db null at that frequency, if I set the sub to the desired 75db will the other frequencies be 6db too 'hot'? What got me thinking on this is my issue where I can't get the v3600 above 72db even with the gain all the way up, whereas my v1500 on the same output and with the same cable will hit 75db with the gain like 1/4 of the way up. The only thing I can think of is that maybe my v3600 is in a null (I haven't have much free time this week, so I haven't moved it around yet), which may cause other areas to be overly high?
Really just thinking out loud here, so feel free to correct me if I'm way off.
My understanding is that Audyssey uses rapid impulses at varying frequencies. I could be wrong about that though.
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post #29694 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 05:44 PM
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Well, I got the furniture movers on tonight so i can finally move this beast around and see if it helps. There has to be a piece of the puzzle I'm missing!

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post #29695 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by k1n3t1k View Post
Haha, I have no doubt - I'm still waiting for someone with carpentry skill to use the V3600 and build a couch around it. Also, paging @Alan P for PSA rides!

I never quite understood the "MBM phenomenon" myself - of course any near-field driver installation is going to yield a more tactile experience and I couldn't agree more with you about trying to blend a PA-oriented driver with anything from PSA, Rythmik, or JTR; it's just too much risk for a SQ compromise.

So the question now is...another V3600 to replace your XV15SE?

Travis
I'm not sure if many people are using the B1200d in music applications where sound quality might be of highest priority, although I believe distortion has been measured to be very low. The whole point is to add mid bass slam, and the reason the B1200d does it better is because its port tune is around 60+ Hz, so the tactile effect, even at the same SPL, is drastically higher due to the high port tune. If you don't understand the MBM phenomenon, the thread explains pretty well why it is so effective for its intended purpose.

Sort of the same principle of 100 dB @ 20 Hz from a ported sub is more tactile than 100 dB @ 20 Hz from a sealed sub. With the MBM, you get incredibly high mid bass slam without having to run the mid bass ridiculously bloated in such a way that it would deteriorate sound quality.
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post #29696 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I'm not sure if many people are using the B1200d in music applications where sound quality might be of highest priority, although I believe distortion has been measured to be very low. The whole point is to add mid bass slam, and the reason the B1200d does it better is because its port tune is around 60+ Hz, so the tactile effect, even at the same SPL, is drastically higher due to the high port tune. If you don't understand the MBM phenomenon, the thread explains pretty well why it is so effective for its intended purpose.

Sort of the same principle of 100 dB @ 20 Hz from a ported sub is more tactile than 100 dB @ 20 Hz from a sealed sub. With the MBM, you get incredibly high mid bass slam without having to run the mid bass ridiculously bloated in such a way that it would deteriorate sound quality.
What you say is true but in my experience with the 1200d if it is pushed past a certain point (even a little) it will quickly deteriorate the sound quality of the setup. But if kept below that level it does pretty good.

The big wild card in the scenario is whether a given system will allow the 1200 to provide the desired tactile effect while playing at a low enough level so that the sound quality doesn't degrade. Or (as in my system) will it have to be turned up to a level that quickly deteriorates the sound quality. Some guys seem to have made this sub work well while others have not been able to get the desired effects.

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post #29697 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I'm not sure if many people are using the B1200d in music applications where sound quality might be of highest priority, although I believe distortion has been measured to be very low. The whole point is to add mid bass slam, and the reason the B1200d does it better is because its port tune is around 60+ Hz, so the tactile effect, even at the same SPL, is drastically higher due to the high port tune. If you don't understand the MBM phenomenon, the thread explains pretty well why it is so effective for its intended purpose.

Sort of the same principle of 100 dB @ 20 Hz from a ported sub is more tactile than 100 dB @ 20 Hz from a sealed sub. With the MBM, you get incredibly high mid bass slam without having to run the mid bass ridiculously bloated in such a way that it would deteriorate sound quality.
I believe its tuning point ended up being around 40hz after measurements were posted. From what I read guys are running it way hot to get the slam, when its calibrated flat then it does not do much. My experience is that midbass slam never sounds good running excessively hot...to get more slam you need to increase the overall system volume and keep the system balanced. Deep bass on the other hand can still sound good running a bit hot.
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post #29698 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 08:40 PM
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I believe its tuning point ended up being around 40hz after measurements were posted. From what I read guys are running it way hot to get the slam, when its calibrated flat then it does not do much. My experience is that midbass slam never sounds good running excessively hot...to get more slam you need to increase the overall system volume and keep the system balanced. Deep bass on the other hand can still sound good running a bit hot.
Thanks Bass for that, in my experience mid bass slam doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a 1 or 2 MBMs tuned to 45-60Hz beating your back into submission, and for a lot of folks this still does not happen. When I want to get crazy I'll run my subs 6-8dB hot but to me even when I do that the bass can get bloated and sound fake and overtakes the movie, plus my misses complains a floor above me (concrete) like she's in one of those insert quarter in slot motel beds, don't ask how she knows what that feels like. I prefer to add a couple dB to my subs trim levels and listen at higher output levels and I get more tactile feel that way.

When I run my subs excessively hot I really can't stand to listen above a very modest level, now with the subs close to what Audy sets them I can listen at reference easily, I usually don't but it's not irritating or offensive especially knowing I have my setup dialed in and everything (speakers) just seem to gel. My only reason for another sub(s) is to bring my system up to another level, not to crack my ceilings or back. I'm thinking a 15V might be just want I need, I've always had a soft spot for the original XV15 with base.

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #29699 of 52630 Old 11-17-2016, 09:04 PM
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I watched Deadpool this evening, glad it was early because I was seriously worried about the levels. I know the neighbor can hear it. There are only about 18 ft separating the houses. I am going to have to turn it down a ways. 4 subwoofers is working really well in my theater
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I watched Deadpool this evening, glad it was early because I was seriously worried about the levels. I know the neighbor can hear it. There are only about 18 ft separating the houses. I am going to have to turn it down a ways. 4 subwoofers is working really well in my theater
That's one of my favorite movies when I want to laugh and FEEL the movie.........
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