The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 2496 Old 06-18-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
Ok, thanks.

I have an EP4000 with one channel available and a minidsp for LPF. Anything else I need to get?
should be good
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post #302 of 2496 Old 06-19-2014, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jstach500 View Post
I spent some time last night playing with the settings in the iNuke. I think I agree with many in this forum that a low-pass filter at 40 Hz is the most natural setting. I applied a Butterworth 12 dB/octave slope, so it still passes some higher frequencies but with less intensity. I tried a number of other options between 40 Hz and 80 Hz with varying slopes, but every time I came back to the 40Hz/12dB setting.

I also applied a dynamic EQ of 9 dB at 40 Hz with an LP12 filter at a threshold of -30 dB. This helps keep the Crowson's effect relatively constant across volume levels. I tend to agree with Craig that there is one "right" intensity for the Crowson and it should stay there. I generally listen below reference level, so that is likely coloring my perception on this issue. At some of my listening levels, the Crowson has a very limited effect without the dynamic EQ. I can understand how some people would like that, but on balance, I think it is better to keep it at one intensity.

The delay took some time to dial in well, but it now feels right. My pre-pro (Emotiva UMC-200) has two LFE outputs. I use one to feed my subwoofer's amp and one to feed the iNuke NU3000DSP driving the Crowson. There are so many delay difference in the chain to account for, as the amps likely have different internal delays and the cable runs are different lengths. The sub sits several feet from me, so the sound it produces takes time to reach me. And the Crowson takes some amount of time translate the electrical signal into motion and for me to then feel that motion. Finally, I haven't researched this, but I suspect that we perceive sound at a different time than we perceive the sound's shockwave on our bodies. To feel natural, I suspect the low-frequency sound from the subwoofer and the motion from the Crowson may need to reach me at different times. As complex as it is to try to calculate the correct delay to apply to the Crowson, setting the delay is actually easy. I just played some clips that had a staccato low-frequency moment, closed my eyes, and listened/felt the response. I dialed in various delays until it felt natural. Not very scientific, but I am happy with the results. For those looking for clips to dial in the delay, try the moment when the window blows out of the building about 30 seconds into The Dark Knight.

My chair is a Fusion Escape sold by Roman of Ultimate Home Entertainment. I tried placing the Crowson in a few places. The best effect was achieved on the main cross-brace that extends from the left side to the right side of the chair in the back. The effect was similar when placed in the left-back corner as the right-back corner when facing forward in the chair.

So far I have spent more time configuring the Crowson than I have spent watching movies with it. That's not to say configuring it was difficult or particularly time-consuming. I just haven't had much time for movies lately. Based on the scenes I tested, however, I think I will very much enjoy having it in my system.
How exactly did you place the rubber mounts on the Escape chairs? I found they slipped over the existing feet perfectly if flipped over. I have the same seats and a pair of Crowsons, just trying to flesh out all ideas about placement. I may do a plywood riser also.
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post #303 of 2496 Old 06-19-2014, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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These are not the Escape chairs, but here's how I mounted them on my Acoustic Innovations chairs:


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post #304 of 2496 Old 06-20-2014, 02:55 AM
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I originally had a D500 amp but it had some issues, it was swapped for a D501. I noticed the movie mode has been changed, the D500 had 8db boost between 30 and 80hz, the 501 has a 6db boost but remains flat (according to the manuals).

I'm just wondering if anyone is running any EQ on their crowson setups? The really low stuff (<20hz) seems a lot more noticeable on mine than the higher frequency content, but it seems to blend with the subs better. I'm running the low pass at 40hz.
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post #305 of 2496 Old 06-22-2014, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubalis2 View Post
How exactly did you place the rubber mounts on the Escape chairs? I found they slipped over the existing feet perfectly if flipped over. I have the same seats and a pair of Crowsons, just trying to flesh out all ideas about placement. I may do a plywood riser also.
These are not great pictures, but they should show where I attached my Crowson feet. Since the Crowson feet are taller than the original feet on the Escape, I was able to leave the original feet on the chair. I just backed out a screw on each of the two main cross braces where the arms attached and then used that same screw to hold the Crowson feet on. If your Escapes don't have arms attached on both sides, then this won't work quite right for you. I put the Crowson itself in the back left corner between the two existing feet. It is tall enough that the feet don't touch the floor or otherwise interfere with the actuator. (Sorry if the images are larger than they should be or are rotated 90 degrees. Still working out the kinks in the new image uploading protocol.)





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post #306 of 2496 Old 06-23-2014, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstach500 View Post
These are not great pictures, but they should show where I attached my Crowson feet. Since the Crowson feet are taller than the original feet on the Escape, I was able to leave the original feet on the chair. I just backed out a screw on each of the two main cross braces where the arms attached and then used that same screw to hold the Crowson feet on. If your Escapes don't have arms attached on both sides, then this won't work quite right for you. I put the Crowson itself in the back left corner between the two existing feet. It is tall enough that the feet don't touch the floor or otherwise interfere with the actuator. (Sorry if the images are larger than they should be or are rotated 90 degrees. Still working out the kinks in the new image uploading protocol.)
Pictures help, thanks for taking the time to flip the seats and show me.
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post #307 of 2496 Old 07-03-2014, 09:51 AM
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I've had my Crowson for about a week now, very impressed so far. Still trying some different LPF settings, currently using 30hz. Ordered more Crowson's for the rest of my chairs and a iNuke 3000dsp to drive them. I see some of you are using plywood under the chair. Do the Crowson and isolators sit under or on top of the plywood? One thing I noticed is at lower frequencies it shakes the seat of the chair more and higher frequencies shake the seat back of the chair. Anyone else notice this?
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post #308 of 2496 Old 07-03-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
I've had my Crowson for about a week now, very impressed so far. Still trying some different LPF settings, currently using 30hz. Ordered more Crowson's for the rest of my chairs and a iNuke 3000dsp to drive them. I see some of you are using plywood under the chair. Do the Crowson and isolators sit under or on top of the plywood? One thing I noticed is at lower frequencies it shakes the seat of the chair more and higher frequencies shake the seat back of the chair. Anyone else notice this?
what shakes depends on your seat. Isolators on top of the wood. I'm crossing mine at 60hz, but filtered a bit at the top end.
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post #309 of 2496 Old 07-08-2014, 09:04 AM
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Hi,

I live in a townhouse and keep the subwoofer volume as low as possible to not bother the neighbors. I planned on getting a set of crowson's to help overcome this and add the feel back in. However I read a review that mentions how the crowson's shake the floor and expect a knock from the neighbors.

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/aud...r-99090/review

My townhouse has old wood floors (built in the 40's) and neighbors on both sides, no one up or down. Any thoughts or comments on unwanted vibrations?

Thanks,
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post #310 of 2496 Old 07-08-2014, 07:18 PM
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Hi,

I live in a townhouse and keep the subwoofer volume as low as possible to not bother the neighbors. I planned on getting a set of crowson's to help overcome this and add the feel back in. However I read a review that mentions how the crowson's shake the floor and expect a knock from the neighbors.

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/aud...r-99090/review

My townhouse has old wood floors (built in the 40's) and neighbors on both sides, no one up or down. Any thoughts or comments on unwanted vibrations?

Thanks,
Just to isolate vibrations from your neighbors, you could build the smallest of risers then place the crowsons on top of that. What I'm describing is say a 3/4"piece (maybe even double it up) of plywood with rubber feet on the bottom. Then use another set of rubber feet when you place your seating on top of that. Essentially treat that first mini riser as if it is the regular floor and isolate the crowsons accordingly. Your seating would be elevated a few inches but...
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post #311 of 2496 Old 07-08-2014, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
I've had my Crowson for about a week now, very impressed so far. Still trying some different LPF settings, currently using 30hz. Ordered more Crowson's for the rest of my chairs and a iNuke 3000dsp to drive them. I see some of you are using plywood under the chair. Do the Crowson and isolators sit under or on top of the plywood? One thing I noticed is at lower frequencies it shakes the seat of the chair more and higher frequencies shake the seat back of the chair. Anyone else notice this?
Re the plywood, the crowsons are often placed on top of wood (should only need a piece as large as the crowson) so that the transducer doesn't sink into the carpet and diminish its effectiveness. Mine are placed underneath much larger pieces of wood so there is a much larger surface for the transducer to move and reduce localization vs some of the small metal supports that were under my seating.
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post #312 of 2496 Old 07-08-2014, 08:28 PM
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Any force absorbed under the unit is that much less force transmitted to the seat.
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post #313 of 2496 Old 07-09-2014, 06:39 AM
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Thanks for the idea gpmbc, hopefully they don't cause any noise problems.

Has anyone experienced unwanted vibrations/noise throughout the house or got any complaints?

Thanks,
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post #314 of 2496 Old 07-10-2014, 10:06 AM
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A couple of questions for you Crowson enthusiast.

What's the difference between the old discontinued TES 100 and the new Shadow 8 model?
Which one offers the most bang for the buck?
I think I saw yesterday that the TES 100 is still available on Amazon.

Also is it necessary to purchase subwoofers, if you opt for the Crowson system for your HT seating?

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post #315 of 2496 Old 07-10-2014, 10:39 AM
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Coolcat, not sure of the difference between the old transducer and the new. Transducers are not a substitute for subs though. They will make your subs feel like they have more extension for sure.
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post #316 of 2496 Old 07-10-2014, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post
A couple of questions for you Crowson enthusiast.

What's the difference between the old discontinued TES 100 and the new Shadow 8 model?
Which one offers the most bang for the buck?
I think I saw yesterday that the TES 100 is still available on Amazon.

Also is it necessary to purchase subwoofers, if you opt for the Crowson system for your HT seating?
From their website:

The Shadow-8 is part of the same family as the original TES100. The Shadow-8 shares the same famous quality and reliability but delivers improved performance especially when producing infrasonic frequencies (below 20Hz). The Shadow-8 has a new magnet structure with a vented center pole to allow air to move in and out more efficiently. The Shadow-8 also sports a new 8 ohm drive coil and an increased range of motion.
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post #317 of 2496 Old 07-10-2014, 10:50 AM
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Transducers are not a substitute for subs though. They will make your subs feel like they have more extension for sure.
+1
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post #318 of 2496 Old 07-10-2014, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post
A couple of questions for you Crowson enthusiast.

What's the difference between the old discontinued TES 100 and the new Shadow 8 model?
Which one offers the most bang for the buck?
I think I saw yesterday that the TES 100 is still available on Amazon.

Also is it necessary to purchase subwoofers, if you opt for the Crowson system for your HT seating?
AFAIK, the only significant difference between the TES 100 and the Shadow 8 is the impedance. The TES 100 is 4 Ohms and the Shadow 8 is 8 Ohms. This is only important for single transducers if the amp has a problem driving an 8 Ohm load. For multiple transducers driven by a single amp, it will determine how you hook up the multiples; series or parallel. Other than that, the form factor and the performance is virtually the same.

The TES 100 was D/C'd a number of years ago. If someone is still selling them as "new" I would want verification that it is actually new, in box and not refurbished or used. Also, I would ask Randy Crowson if he still provides a warranty for, and still stocks parts for the TES 100's.

As far as transducers being a substitute for subwoofers, IMO, the answer will depend on your speakers. If you use "full range" speakers, and they provide all the bass you want, then transducers will enhance that bass, and subs will be unnecessary. However, if you use bookshelf, satellite or "LCR-type" speakers, I would not suggest using transducers without subs. It would be weird to "feel" the transducers without any appropriate bass "sound" with which to correlate it.

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post #319 of 2496 Old 07-11-2014, 11:41 AM
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Thanks everyone for your replies.

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post #320 of 2496 Old 07-13-2014, 05:15 PM
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Hey everyone. I'm interested in potentially adding to transducers to my setup and it sounds like Crowson is the best bet. However after reading through a number of threads (including this one) I'm still feeling a bit lost. I've done my best to outline my questions below but I'm fairly new to all of this so I apologize if some of them are silly -I searched and read other threads before hand!

1. I had thought transducers just needed a sub/LFE signal to function but the install guide on Crowson's site show inputs for FR and FL speakers as well. How would transducers output stereo and more importantly does anyone use them this way/is it worth while? Link to Crowson install manual (http://crowsontech.com/_CrowsonTech/...m%20Manual.pdf)

2. I have a Denon X1000 configured with Audyssey and watch BD's through an Xbox1. My sub (a PSA XS30) is just a few feet from the listening position but after reading some of these threads I'm a little bit concerned about Audyssey potentially ruining my transducer experience -especially because I enjoy both dynamic volume and dynamic EQ enabled. What amplifier would you recommend and why? Also note the amplifier will likely be awfully close to the seating position so a quiet running amp is highly desirable.

Thanks in advance!
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post #321 of 2496 Old 07-13-2014, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey everyone. I'm interested in potentially adding to transducers to my setup and it sounds like Crowson is the best bet. However after reading through a number of threads (including this one) I'm still feeling a bit lost. I've done my best to outline my questions below but I'm fairly new to all of this so I apologize if some of them are silly -I searched and read other threads before hand!

1. I had thought transducers just needed a sub/LFE signal to function but the install guide on Crowson's site show inputs for FR and FL speakers as well. How would transducers output stereo and more importantly does anyone use them this way/is it worth while? Link to Crowson install manual (http://crowsontech.com/_CrowsonTech/...m%20Manual.pdf)
Crowson pushes this "stereo" transducer concept. However, the fact is that most bass below 80 Hz is recorded in multi-channel "mono" anyway, so very little "stereo bass" even exists. There is no reason for recording engineers to record "stereo" bass as humans can't hear directionality of sound below 80 Hz. Furthermore, since most of us cross our transducers out at 40 Hz, and there is ZERO directional bass at 40 Hz and below, there is simply no benefit whatsoever to "stereo" transducers. Finally, the LFE channel is a mono channel and it gets a 10 dB boost on playback, so it will be the primary signal for the transducer(s.)

Bottom line, if you are going to use the transducers below 80 Hz, there is little, if any, benefit to "stereo" transducers. To realize any benefit of "stereo" transducers, you would need to run them up to 200 Hz or so, and running them that high makes the shaking very unrealistic, (IMO.)

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2. I have a Denon X1000 configured with Audyssey and watch BD's through an Xbox1. My sub (a PSA XS30) is just a few feet from the listening position but after reading some of these threads I'm a little bit concerned about Audyssey potentially ruining my transducerexperience -especially because I enjoy both dynamic volume and dynamic EQ enabled.
Audyssey may, or may not have a big impact on the transducers depending on what it's doing to the signal below your transducer cross out point. If you're crossing your transducer(s) out at 40 Hz, and Audyssey is not doing much boosting or cutting below 40 Hz, it will have little impact. If there are large boosts or cuts in the <40 Hz range, you'll want to find a signal for the transducers that is not exposed to Audyssey RC. I use the analog subwoofer output of my Oppo BluRay player for the source signal for my transducers. This ensures they are not exposed to Audyssey processing.

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What amplifier would you recommend and why? Also note the amplifier will likely be awfully close to the seating position so a quiet running amp is highly desirable.
I use the Buttkicker BKA 1000 amp. It has a level control and a selectable "high cutoff" filter, (as well as an unused "low cutoff" filter.) I use the Bass Management in my Oppo for "delay" of the signal to time align the "shake" of the transducers with the "sound" of the subs.
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post #322 of 2496 Old 07-14-2014, 03:29 PM
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.
I'm not interested in investing the money for an Oppo when I already have a BluRay player, and can't seem to find a good way to get an Audyssey free signal... I guess I'll aim to set the gain on my sub such that it doesn't get boosted by the receiver and hope it's not tinkering with the signal too much... Any way to check how Audyssey corrects the signal in my X1000 without measuring with microphone?

What made you choose the ButtKicker BKA 1000? After quickly looking it looks like the iNuke offers more functionality in a package costing half as much. Am I missing something?

Thanks Craig!
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post #323 of 2496 Old 07-15-2014, 10:28 AM
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Any way to check how Audyssey corrects the signal in my X1000 without measuring with microphone?
Connect the sub out to the soundcard input, measure with REW or something similar.
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post #324 of 2496 Old 07-15-2014, 06:07 PM
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Which amp does everyone recommend? I'm starting to lean toward the buttkicker as it has a lower stated frequency response but would love to hear other feedback.

Thanks,
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post #325 of 2496 Old 07-15-2014, 06:43 PM
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So I have pretty much decided to get some Crowsons (3 to start) but there are a few things I would like to clarify:

1) Like t231 asked above, is is advantageous to get the BK amp instead of the Crowson amp to drive three attenuators? BK specs say it goes lower than Crowson amp.

2) I really can't afford to get Crowsons as well as a OPPO BD Player so I can have an unprocessed signal going to the Crowson/BK amp. So I will have to go with a cheap AV receiver and HDMI splitter to achieve the same results. For those who have gone this route, can you please recommend a splitter that is known to work well?

3) Is the AVS discount still available?


Thanks Guys,
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post #326 of 2496 Old 07-15-2014, 11:33 PM
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1) Many have had good luck with the Behringer Inuke 1000/3000 depending on how many transducers. Craig has obviously had great success with the BK amp. I myself have had great success with the Crowson amp driving four transducers. I wouldn't put much stock in the spec game as I'm sure you'll reach ULF easily with either amp provided your signal chain is not compromised.

2)I can't recommend an hdmi splitter but an unprocessed or minimally processed signal is best unless you intentionally EQ for say a house curve like JapanDave.

3) You just have to call to get the AVS discount.
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post #327 of 2496 Old 07-16-2014, 01:21 PM
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1) Many have had good luck with the Behringer Inuke 1000/3000 depending on how many transducers. Craig has obviously had great success with the BK amp. I myself have had great success with the Crowson amp driving four transducers. I wouldn't put much stock in the spec game as I'm sure you'll reach ULF easily with either amp provided your signal chain is not compromised.

2)I can't recommend an hdmi splitter but an unprocessed or minimally processed signal is best unless you intentionally EQ for say a house curve like JapanDave.

3) You just have to call to get the AVS discount.
Thank gpmbc, appreciate the response!!. In lieu of a HDMI splitter and a second receiver, is there a cheaper blu-ray player alternative to the OPPO that has the same analog sub out?

thanks
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post #328 of 2496 Old 07-16-2014, 01:38 PM
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I use a BKA1000-N to power my one Crowson transducer(that I got from Craig). If I am not mistaken we had to connect it to my Integra 80.3. I have the level on the Butt Kicker at about 3 and that gives me plenty of shake for my Lazyboy chair. It's not the way Craig likes to run it but since I am using a server, I had no choice. I am very glad that I have this now though. The extra tactile feel is really cool and I don't know if I could do without it now.

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post #329 of 2496 Old 07-20-2014, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
From the Crowson FAQ:
Quote:Q: Is the Crowson TES-100 different from a "shaker?"
A: Yes, most definitely.

Many people, even some industry "experts" use the terms "shakers" and "tactile transducers" interchangeably, which is not technically correct.

A "shaker" can be a "tactile transducer," but not all "tactile transducers" are "shakers." Crowson TES-100 is a tactile transducer, but does not employ an "inertial-shaking" like any device which bolts onto the internal frame of a chair.

Crowson drivers are true Linear Actuators, not "shakers." They physically lift the seating (in the vertical plane), directly transferring motion at the points that were designed to bear the weight of the furniture.

The result is an incredibly realistic ("fast") motion rather than what can be a distracting, "one-note rumble" (shakers).

Crowson patented technology, Linear-Direct-Drive (LDD TM), delivers an audiophile-grade motion, with a linear, flat frequency response that exceeds even the finest loudspeakers (though it is not designed as a subwoofer replacement).

Imagine attempting to use a siren as a full-range home theater loudspeaker. Sirens are very efficient at a narrow band of frequencies, but terribly inefficient and inaccurate at other frequencies.
Inertial "shakers" can add an interesting, vigorous effect for similarly narrow frequency ranges (different "shakers" are optimized for different narrow frequency ranges), but are severely limited in their overall accuracy due to similar technical constraints.

Crowson TES-100 Linear Actuators are not simple "shakers" and should not be refered to as such.


http://crowsontech.com/go/crowsontec...opDefault.aspx

Craig
How does that compare to the buttkickers, same idea?
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post #330 of 2496 Old 07-22-2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post
Just to isolate vibrations from your neighbors, you could build the smallest of risers then place the crowsons on top of that.

I live in an apartment, with neighbors to the right, left and under me.
Will something like the Auralex isolation platform work?

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