The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 37 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 2389 Old 10-02-2017, 06:47 AM
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Ok, So....the Crowson's have built in thermal protection. AWESOME.

Can anyone speak to if they have any mechanical protection in place?

Anything to protect from over excursion?

Has anyone bottomed these bad boys out yet?

I'm just wondering how idiot proof these little guys are.
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post #1082 of 2389 Old 10-02-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Ok, So....the Crowson's have built in thermal protection. AWESOME.



Can anyone speak to if they have any mechanical protection in place?



Anything to protect from over excursion?



Has anyone bottomed these bad boys out yet?



I'm just wondering how idiot proof these little guys are.


I did overdrive my four, running off the Crowson amp. It only required a fuse replacement to correct, although I did need to lower the gain a bit (it was on maximum). I plan to add a second amp to avoid this issue in the future.


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post #1083 of 2389 Old 10-02-2017, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I did overdrive my four, running off the Crowson amp. It only required a fuse replacement to correct, although I did need to lower the gain a bit (it was on maximum). I plan to add a second amp to avoid this issue in the future.


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Pardon? Are you saying that you blew a fuse in your amp?

I am asking about the transducers themselves. When you reach the mechanical limits of a subwoofer there is no protection and you can bottom out the driver. Can the same be done with the Crowson's? Or do they have some sort of excursion limiter built in?
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post #1084 of 2389 Old 10-02-2017, 01:00 PM
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Done deal. Crowsons ordered... some delay on shipment due to small back order but should ship Wednesday. My guess is I'll see them early next week.
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post #1085 of 2389 Old 10-02-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Pardon? Are you saying that you blew a fuse in your amp?



I am asking about the transducers themselves. When you reach the mechanical limits of a subwoofer there is no protection and you can bottom out the driver. Can the same be done with the Crowson's? Or do they have some sort of excursion limiter built in?


I would direct further inquiries to Randolph Crowson. I’ve had good luck calling him in the early evening ET.


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post #1086 of 2389 Old 10-02-2017, 02:36 PM
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I would direct further inquiries to Randolph Crowson. I’ve had good luck calling him in the early evening ET.


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Meh, don't have the patience for that.

I'll let you guys know if they break...
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post #1087 of 2389 Old 10-02-2017, 08:25 PM
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Done deal. Crowsons ordered... some delay on shipment due to small back order but should ship Wednesday. My guess is I'll see them early next week.
Woohoo! I'm super excited for you. If you get even a fraction of the results I am with a similar setup, I think you'll be blown away. The <40 Hz TR was the most profound addition.

You can at least download the iNuke DSP software and set the crossover, play with the DEQ, set the power limiter for each channel, etc.

I used a 50Hz crossover for a good while, and most recently tried up to 65Hz after adding the last two subs, but I honestly can't tell a huge difference in the upper bass TR with the higher crossover nor do I feel any deep voices being projected into the couch, as some have reported with >50Hz settings; most people seem to prefer 40-50Hz or lower for their tactile transducers.

I may have mentioned before that the iNuke software reverses the terms for high/low pass filters, so look at the graphic on screen to see what is happening to the signal's response. Also, to make amp adjustments simple, link both channels so the EQ settings equally apply.


Enjoy!
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post #1088 of 2389 Old 10-02-2017, 08:30 PM
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In regards to seating, I have the height of the plywood base maybe 1/8"-1/16" higher than the Crowsons before I slide them underneath, so some of the couch weight is resting on the isolation feet and some is distributed to the actuators; and this works amazingly well for my setup. I'm not really sure what the recommendation would be here to determine how much weight is optimal for maximum TR, but I would assume the less excess weight the better to be able to really feel that 1,000ft/lbs of force per actuator.

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post #1089 of 2389 Old 10-02-2017, 08:30 PM
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Meh, don't have the patience for that.

I'll let you guys know if they break...
DONT BREAK IT. Best way to set them that I know of is with EOT. Tried both ways I like the MA’s with Audyssey XT32. Set your system at max ref level that you’ll ever play. THE RUN EOT until clip lights just flicker. It’s a 0db 10hz clip in the center+LFE. That shows as a -7db in speclab only because it’s not 0db in all channels I believe, what’s called a WCS. I don’t believe that’s ever been recorded. I know JA has that blast that peaks at 25hz but it’s not 10hz. That makes EOT the WCS and gives you your boundary. Everything else falls into place from there and the Crowson is safe. That’s just for max level output. If your looking for the complete setup of a front/rear/TT system see Craig’s first few posts as I have a setup guide for that.

Then just start collecting more MAs. You need a Kill Box. 1x24/2xMA per seat is what you need. Your comments will be priceless. You can’t not do it. You already have the stuff. I can’t explain it. It’s you. I did it and it hits and you go of course that’s it. What took so long. It totally impractical and you can’t run at max for more than a few minutes but even at 50 or 25 percent it’s just feels so right.
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post #1090 of 2389 Old 10-03-2017, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Pardon? Are you saying that you blew a fuse in your amp?

I am asking about the transducers themselves. When you reach the mechanical limits of a subwoofer there is no protection and you can bottom out the driver. Can the same be done with the Crowson's? Or do they have some sort of excursion limiter built in?
Same as a sub. Any limiter is via the amp. You can bottom these and you will know it when you do.
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post #1091 of 2389 Old 10-03-2017, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Same as a sub. Any limiter is via the amp. You can bottom these and you will know it when you do.
I mean I get it and that makes sense. That said the only reason I asked is because I have never heard of anyone "bottoming out" a Crowson. In addition, since I know of ZERO drivers that have built in thermal protection (as I have learned the Crowson's have in place), asking if the Crowson's have built in mechanical protection made sense to me at the moment.
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post #1092 of 2389 Old 10-03-2017, 06:28 PM
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I mean I get it and that makes sense. That said the only reason I asked is because I have never heard of anyone "bottoming out" a Crowson. In addition, since I know of ZERO drivers that have built in thermal protection (as I have learned the Crowson's have in place), asking if the Crowson's have built in mechanical protection made sense to me at the moment.
I haven’t had mine bottom out, but what i’ve had happen is if no one sits in the other seat, and i play something loud sub-20hz, it can «shoot the couch up» so that it makes a sound when it lands again. The empty seat vs the two Crowsons simply gets to light, so it gets airborne. This is probably very minor, 1mm or two, but enough to hear it.

Nothing dangerous, but still something to be aware of.
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post #1093 of 2389 Old 10-05-2017, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I haven’t had mine bottom out, but what i’ve had happen is if no one sits in the other seat, and i play something loud sub-20hz, it can «shoot the couch up» so that it makes a sound when it lands again. The empty seat vs the two Crowsons simply gets to light, so it gets airborne. This is probably very minor, 1mm or two, but enough to hear it.

Nothing dangerous, but still something to be aware of.
@Hop inator would like this comment^...lol

Thanks for the feedback brotha!
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post #1094 of 2389 Old 10-05-2017, 01:09 PM
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In regards to seating, I have the height of the plywood base maybe 1/8"-1/16" higher than the Crowsons before I slide them underneath, so some of the couch weight is resting on the isolation feet and some is distributed to the actuators; and this works amazingly well for my setup. I'm not really sure what the recommendation would be here to determine how much weight is optimal for maximum TR, but I would assume the less excess weight the better to be able to really feel that 1,000ft/lbs of force per actuator.
Where did you get the 1000ftlb spec?
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post #1095 of 2389 Old 10-05-2017, 03:36 PM
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Where did you get the 1000ftlb spec?
Going by the Shadow-8 weight rating more than anything, not sure the force is ever listed.

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post #1096 of 2389 Old 10-05-2017, 05:10 PM
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Going by the Shadow-8 weight rating more than anything, not sure the force is ever listed.
Ok I gotcha. I looked through all the website and I did come across that question about placing them under a bed. Never crossed my mind to do that to a bed whether by necessity or not. That opens possibilities for those that what this. Pretty cool. It does say 1000lbs which seems to contradict the 250lb rating on the website. Its not though if you consider a typical four post 1000lb bed which gives you 250lbs at each foot. Likewise with a chair or couch you take total weight divided by number of feet. Looking at it that way you could have 1xMA cover a large couch with 3-4 occupants. It’d be interesting to see your current configs vs 2xFeet+2xMA’s at the corners only with nothing else. That would be some valuable data as there’s at least as many with love seats or couch’s if not more than us with individual seats.

Btw, the specs for the MA is 0.25inls and 50ftlbs force. This may not seem like a lot but it’s a ton when you consider it’s direct coupled which has 10-1000x the tactile energy of a sub alone.
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post #1097 of 2389 Old 10-05-2017, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Ok, So....the Crowson's have built in thermal protection. AWESOME.

Can anyone speak to if they have any mechanical protection in place?

Anything to protect from over excursion?

Has anyone bottomed these bad boys out yet?

I'm just wondering how idiot proof these little guys are.
Just thought I'd add I've put a 1000w to these and they didn't bottom. The springs these have are load bearing so they have to be strong. Heres the TMI of it for those so inclined.
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post #1098 of 2389 Old 10-06-2017, 01:32 AM
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Just thought I'd add I've put a 1000w to these and they didn't bottom. The springs these have are load bearing so they have to be strong. Heres the TMI of it for those so inclined.
Me too, i have two MA’s in parallel on each NU6K channel (2KW RMS).

Thanks for the link
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post #1099 of 2389 Old 10-06-2017, 05:54 AM
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Me too, i have two MA’s in parallel on each NU6K channel (2KW RMS).

Thanks for the link
Hmmm...now I really want to push mine more to see what sort of added TR I get with excess power, currently have them limited at the recommended 500 watts each, one per channel of the NU6K. I was worried about damage, as I have read a few people that have done as much; but maybe that was on the older models.

Have you had their thermal limiter kick in yet?

And that was a sweet link to the patent @coolrda

I'll try and get some VS measurements of my loveseat one day soon and post them in that thread...so busy lately.
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post #1100 of 2389 Old 10-06-2017, 06:04 AM
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Hmmm...now I really want to push mine more to see what sort of added TR I get with excess power, currently have them limited at the recommended 500 watts each, one per channel of the NU6K. I was worried about damage, as I have read a few people that have done as much; but maybe that was on the older models.

Have you had their thermal limiter kick in yet?

And that was a sweet link to the patent @coolrda

I'll try and get some VS measurements of my loveseat one day soon and post them in that thread...so busy lately.
Earlier i had just two MA’s under a two seat recliner couch, and it tripped the themal when pushed hard. But that has not happened with the 4 i got now. Like i said i have a temp sensor on one of them, so i can watch the temp on them.

But then again i have a LS on mine, so i am maybe pushing a bit more than most.
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post #1101 of 2389 Old 10-06-2017, 06:49 AM
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For those curious about 1kw per and want to run it that way...Don't. I did it just to see and measure. I had 1 EP4K per 2xMa's bridged into 4 ohms which is about 900-1000w real watts, 2 amps, 4 MA's, 2 seats. I blew one set. The other side took it. To be fair, one blew thats was probably weak from all the prior beating it took. The 10hz with EOT is where that went then everything gets dumped to the single unit still up which is 1400w+ or so and I couldn't get to the MV fast enough. VS data didn't show much difference except at lower gain, maybe. Stick to the 500w and these can take it. These are very efficient so less power really doesn't compromise performance. If you feel you need more, more power isn't the answer. Better power and more units is.
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post #1102 of 2389 Old 10-06-2017, 06:55 AM
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For those curious about 1kw per and want to runit that way...Don't. I did it just to see and measure. I had 1 EP4K per 2xMa's bridged into 4 ohms which is about 900-1000w real watts, 2 amps, 4 MA's, 2 seats. I blew one set. The other side took it. To be fair, one blew thats was probably weak from all the prior beating it took. The 10hz with EOT is where that went then everything gets dumped to the single unit still up which is 1400w+ or so and I couldn't get to the MV fast enough. VS data didn't show much difference except at lower gain, maybe. Stick to the 500w and these can take it. These are very efficient so less power really doesn't compromise performance. If you feel you need more, more power isn't the answer. Better power and more units is.
Holy testicle tuesday, you can’t leave well enough alone !

Is that your 3rd blow up?

Well then, proceed with caution everybody

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post #1103 of 2389 Old 10-06-2017, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
For those curious about 1kw per and want to runit that way...Don't. I did it just to see and measure. I had 1 EP4K per 2xMa's bridged into 4 ohms which is about 900-1000w real watts, 2 amps, 4 MA's, 2 seats. I blew one set. The other side took it. To be fair, one blew thats was probably weak from all the prior beating it took. The 10hz with EOT is where that went then everything gets dumped to the single unit still up which is 1400w+ or so and I couldn't get to the MV fast enough. VS data didn't show much difference except at lower gain, maybe. Stick to the 500w and these can take it. These are very efficient so less power really doesn't compromise performance. If you feel you need more, more power isn't the answer. Better power and more units is.
I've had similar experiences to yours. I sold an older unit, a TES-100, (pre-Shadow-8), to a friend and he had it seize up running it with a Buttkicker BKA-1000 amp, (1,000 wattas, mono.) Randolph fixed at a very reasonable cost. My friend has run it at lower levels on the Buttkicker amp since it came back and has not had further problems. He's also a little more cautious with the MVC.

I've also had a pair of mine make some bad noises when I drove them too hard. Turning down the input level corrected the problem. I run mine on a "fixed" input to my BKA-1000, and fixed output that is not responsive to the MVC, so I just turned it down about a 1 dB, and that's all it took. I've also had them freeze up temporarily from overheating. Again, turning down the input level fixed that problem as well. Nonetheless, I don't think there is any "mechanical" limiter built into the TA's. Randolph would have the final say on it tho.

Craig.
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post #1104 of 2389 Old 10-07-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Hmmm...now I really want to push mine more to see what sort of added TR I get with excess power, currently have them limited at the recommended 500 watts each, one per channel of the NU6K. I was worried about damage, as I have read a few people that have done as much; but maybe that was on the older models.

Have you had their thermal limiter kick in yet?

And that was a sweet link to the patent @coolrda

I'll try and get some VS measurements of my loveseat one day soon and post them in that thread...so busy lately.
I'm pushing mine with a FP10K clone. 2,100watts @ 4ohm I believe. I do have a significant house curve running. I've went into thermal protection once. Have yet to hear funny noises yet. Most fun experiment I've conducted thus far was seeing how much output I could get from a 4Hz sine wave.

Ok, I guess my question about mechanical protection has been answered. They can be over driven and damaged.

One other side question for anyone that may know. What is the Fs of the Crowson's? Would the Fs change dependent of the weight applied to the transducers? Almost like how the Fs changes dependent on enclosure size of a traditional subwoofer?
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post #1105 of 2389 Old 10-07-2017, 11:16 AM
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Like i said i have a temp sensor on one of them, so i can watch the temp on them.
How?
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post #1106 of 2389 Old 10-07-2017, 11:17 AM
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Earlier i had just two MA’s under a two seat recliner couch, and it tripped the themal when pushed hard. But that has not happened with the 4 i got now. Like i said i have a temp sensor on one of them, so i can watch the temp on them.

But then again i have a LS on mine, so i am maybe pushing a bit more than most.
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Holy testicle tuesday, you can’t leave well enough alone !

Is that your 3rd blow up?

Well then, proceed with caution everybody
3 Down and back up. All's well in tactileland.
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post #1107 of 2389 Old 10-07-2017, 11:45 AM
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I'm pushing mine with a FP10K clone. 2,100watts @ 4ohm I believe. I do have a significant house curve running. I've went into thermal protection once. Have yet to hear funny noises yet. Most fun experiment I've conducted thus far was seeing how much output I could get from a 4Hz sine wave.

Ok, I guess my question about mechanical protection has been answered. They can be over driven and damaged.

One other side question for anyone that may know. What is the Fs of the Crowson's? Would the Fs change dependent of the weight applied to the transducers? Almost like how the Fs changes dependent on enclosure size of a traditional subwoofer?
You da man, Pops! Everytime I've blown one the amp(EP4K) has been clipped to hell I'm sure even with the limiter on. I liked the feel best when I had my SP12K running them and I will definitely be moving to that in the future in some form. I concur on the 4hz. That queasy, weightless feel is just too fun. Its like having your own rollercoaster in your house. Having these and the 24 is about as perfect as you can expect. Nothing like it.

Theres no Fs(I dont believe theres an imoedance curve). Its a Linear Actuator. So the tactile response is of whats its actuating. This has been tested. I'll find and repost the pics of all the VS testing done on this. With a 25lb weight on several different iphones placed placed directly on the MA, the response is flat to 1hz obviously dependant on signal/source ability.
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post #1108 of 2389 Old 10-07-2017, 12:35 PM
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How?
I use a weatherstation which uses remote sensor for outdoor temperature. It has up to 3 sensors/channels, so i monitor outdoor temp on one channel, one MA on ch.2 and the NU6K on ch.3 (since i have done the fan mod, i wanted to monitor any changes in temp). Sensor is fastened with doublesided tape to the side of one MA.



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You da man, Pops! Everytime I've blown one the amp(EP4K) has been clipped to hell I'm sure even with the limiter on.
That might be the problem. Randolph mentioned clipping when i burned mine. Maybe your amp is to small!! (I burned mine with the much smaller AODA MA200 amp, probably clipping like crazy too). And thereby goes into clipping, thus burning your MA’s (remember when the first one burned, the load went from 4 to 8 ohm, reducing power to the one left).

The Crowson amp has a built in compressor/limiter to avoid this clipping reaching the MA’s.
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Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 8xJBL 12" BOSS - 4xJBL 12" w/SLAPS M12" VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
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post #1109 of 2389 Old 10-09-2017, 06:24 PM
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For those curious about 1kw per and want to run it that way...Don't. I did it just to see and measure. I had 1 EP4K per 2xMa's bridged into 4 ohms which is about 900-1000w real watts, 2 amps, 4 MA's, 2 seats. I blew one set. The other side took it. To be fair, one blew thats was probably weak from all the prior beating it took. The 10hz with EOT is where that went then everything gets dumped to the single unit still up which is 1400w+ or so and I couldn't get to the MV fast enough. VS data didn't show much difference except at lower gain, maybe. Stick to the 500w and these can take it. These are very efficient so less power really doesn't compromise performance. If you feel you need more, more power isn't the answer. Better power and more units is.
How would you suggest one achieve better power? Curious about the ultimate power source for the Crowsons, how does the Crowson amp (that can power up to 4 actuators?) compare to say a Speakerpower amp? Both significant steps up from an ep4000?
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post #1110 of 2389 Old 10-10-2017, 01:45 AM
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How would you suggest one achieve better power? Curious about the ultimate power source for the Crowsons, how does the Crowson amp (that can power up to 4 actuators?) compare to say a Speakerpower amp? Both significant steps up from an ep4000?
First pay attention to frequency response and power figures as measured from a third party. Behringer measure far less than advertised. The One amp measured was [email protected] and the EP4000 [email protected] You can eq to fix this roll but it costs you valuable gain. Then as resistance drops, frequency response changes and rolls even harder. Presently I run 1xEP4k bridged to 2 MA’s wired in series. That’s 16ohm bridged. Soon as I added 2 more MA’s I could feel the hit it took to TR, especially 15hz and below. The EP4k does 900w/16ohm, 1300w/8ohm and 1800w/4ohm bridged but wont pass the 10hz text bridged into 4 ohm. Into 16ohm it measures better and feels stronger. No such problem with the SP amp. I may get a speakerpower plate to power the MAs. The Crowson amp has a lot of features but is low on power into 4 Crowson’s. The Speakerpower amps should handily beat the Crowson amp.
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