The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 39 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1141 of 2451 Old 10-23-2017, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Finally found my order for those feet I used for the plywood platform experiment:
ButtKicker RI-4-PAK Medium Kinetic Furniture Isolators Set of 5

Will these work with the MAs or do I need to order the ones from Crowson??
Use those, the Crowson sorbothane feet are 10 times the price. I'm using some harder cheap penn elcom feet I got from PE also. Sorbothane feet are great for decoupling, but I keep seeing reports of them disintegrating after heavy use within a year or less so that's a little worrisome, probably a YMMV type of thing.
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post #1142 of 2451 Old 10-23-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Woot, halfway there! That's basically it. RCA Y splitter from LFE then an RCA to XLR adapter going into the amp (or two depending on setup). I use a cheap pair of neutrik/speakon cables out that terminates into bare wires from the amp to the subs.
I have no idea what a "neutrik/speakon" cable is.

I've got an RCA>XLR adapter for the amp input, but can someone link me to the cable they are using between the amp and MA please? Sorry, I'm such a needy hand-holder...
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post #1143 of 2451 Old 10-23-2017, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Finally found my order for those feet I used for the plywood platform experiment:
ButtKicker RI-4-PAK Medium Kinetic Furniture Isolators Set of 5

Will these work with the MAs or do I need to order the ones from Crowson??
Alan, when you order a single Crowson I believe they will send three of their feet with it. that should be enough. But if you do need more feet then the Buttkicker feet work fine (that's what I'm using for my extra feet).

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I have no idea what a "neutrik/speakon" cable is.

I've got an RCA>XLR adapter for the amp input, but can someone link me to the cable they are using between the amp and MA please? Sorry, I'm such a needy hand-holder...
I'll send you a link for the Speakon connectors.

The cable going from the amp to the Crowsons is simply speaker wire. I'm using 14 gauge.

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post #1144 of 2451 Old 10-23-2017, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Alan, when you order a single Crowson I believe they will send three of their feet with it. that should be enough. But if you do need more feet then the Buttkicker feet work fine (that's what I'm using for my extra feet).
Hmmm...do you think they would give me a discount if I don't need the feet the provide??


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I'll send you a link for the Speakon connectors.

The cable going from the amp to the Crowsons is simply speaker wire. I'm using 14 gauge.
Thanks for the links!

Carp! I gotta go check when I get home...I don't think I have ANY speaker wire! Weird for me not to, but I think I gave all I had left to a buddy who was wiring up surrounds.
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post #1145 of 2451 Old 10-23-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hmmm...do you think they would give me a discount if I don't need the feet the provide??
FWIW I think the Crowsons feet are much better.

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post #1146 of 2451 Old 10-23-2017, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
FWIW I think the Crowsons feet are much better.
You've used both? Can you tell me why you think they are better??
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post #1147 of 2451 Old 10-24-2017, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You've used both? Can you tell me why you think they are better??
To me they feel like they have a little more movement in them. But I could be wrong and it certainly isn't a huge difference IMO. And I'm still in the experimenting phase so keep that in mind as well, I may change my mind in a few weeks... who knows.

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Last edited by Hopinater; 10-24-2017 at 06:40 AM.
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post #1148 of 2451 Old 10-24-2017, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I actually noticed a slight decrease in TR afterwards, the opposite of most peoples experience. Regardless, now I am ready for the Crowson(s).
And you should have. The fact that it feels that way is correct. When you place isolators on seating your decoupling. That takes away from acoustic coupled TR but increases direct coupled TR which is what you'll have. Lose a little but gain a lot.


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Are you using the sorbothane feet from Crowson? Do you have links to the hard rubber and cork stand offs that you mentioned?
I was using those feet. I'm using these now. Penn Elcom 9106 Feet
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post #1149 of 2451 Old 10-24-2017, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
I was using those feet. I'm using these now. Penn Elcom 9106 Feet
Those are the feet I use too, and I think a more firm base helps transmit the direct TR from the Crowson more accurately...maybe I'm wrong, but I love the results. I can see how softer isolation feet would also work well in other situations.

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post #1150 of 2451 Old 10-25-2017, 03:14 AM
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I went from the original rubber feet like the Penn Elcom's to the sorbethane and back to the rubber.

After approximately one year of using the sorbethane, I noticed the sorbethane was tearing which I believed was caused by the opening and closing of the recliner. It appears that the movement of the chair during the reclining and closing motion caused the upper and lower disc of the sorbethane isolator to tear into the sorbethane.

The stiffer rubber feet provide better performance to me, the action is more jarring and abrupt and it appears faster. The sorbethane appear to perform best with very low frequencies and slow motion which enable the chair to quiver and swim a little. Overall, I feel the stiffer rubber feet are preferred for the majority of the action especially if you choose a higher crossover for the transducers.
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Last edited by H Stevens; 10-27-2017 at 12:03 PM.
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post #1151 of 2451 Old 10-27-2017, 10:38 AM
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Where are you guys mounting the amp? Since I will be splitting the signal from one of my rear subs to feed it, I was thinking somewhere in the back of the room (under the chair even?). But, I could just as easily split off of one of the front subs, put the amp in the equipment rack (really just a TV stand) and run speaker wire the 35' or so to the MA.

What say you?
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post #1152 of 2451 Old 10-27-2017, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Where are you guys mounting the amp? Since I will be splitting the signal from one of my rear subs to feed it, I was thinking somewhere in the back of the room (under the chair even?). But, I could just as easily split off of one of the front subs, put the amp in the equipment rack (really just a TV stand) and run speaker wire the 35' or so to the MA.

What say you?
Mines rack mounted.
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post #1153 of 2451 Old 10-27-2017, 02:44 PM
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Do the iNukes tend to run hot, or are they relatively cool running units? Asking because my available rack space is a bit tight, but could add a couple cooling fans if need be.
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post #1154 of 2451 Old 10-27-2017, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Do the iNukes tend to run hot, or are they relatively cool running units? Asking because my available rack space is a bit tight, but could add a couple cooling fans if need be.
Inukes are PA amps, so they are ment to be stacked. They have cooling fans in the rear blowing to the front.

The fans are noisy however, so if used in same room, they need a fan mod.
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post #1155 of 2451 Old 10-28-2017, 11:26 PM
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Question

So the 2 Crowsons came in a couple days ago and I'm terrible at setting these up!

I've got them wired properly to the iNuke 3000dsp amp and receiver, they seem to work okay? But I'm honestly kinda unimpressed. I'm sure that's due to my settings within the iNuke app...but what settings are you all using? If anyone could post screenshots of their equalizer graphs, db stuff. Anything really :P
I've tried messing around with it and I've gone from just a general constant vibrating happening all the time to what almost feels like I thought it would? I'm now getting somewhat punchy jolts with guns for instance but it's still hit or miss and feels sorta loose.

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post #1156 of 2451 Old 10-29-2017, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassiveG View Post
So the 2 Crowsons came in a couple days ago and I'm terrible at setting these up!

I've got them wired properly to the iNuke 3000dsp amp and receiver, they seem to work okay? But I'm honestly kinda unimpressed. I'm sure that's due to my settings within the iNuke app...but what settings are you all using? If anyone could post screenshots of their equalizer graphs, db stuff. Anything really :P
I've tried messing around with it and I've gone from just a general constant vibrating happening all the time to what almost feels like I thought it would? I'm now getting somewhat punchy jolts with guns for instance but it's still hit or miss and feels sorta loose.
I don't have my exact settings handy, but as a rough starter, turn the attenuator knobs on the front all the way clockwise so your AVR is sending the full signal to the amp. Give it a 3rd order BW low pass filter at 30-40Hz (gain=0) to eliminate the high frequency signals going to the transducers. Then if you listen at low volume, you can add DEQ so the amp automatically applies additional gain at low volume levels - as an example you can try a LP12 @ 20Hz, max gain, threshold = -50. That will amplify the low frequency signals at low volume and automatically turn it down as you raise the volume. You will need to adjust to suit your situation and taste but that should get you started.

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post #1157 of 2451 Old 10-29-2017, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MassiveG View Post
So the 2 Crowsons came in a couple days ago and I'm terrible at setting these up!

I've got them wired properly to the iNuke 3000dsp amp and receiver, they seem to work okay? But I'm honestly kinda unimpressed. I'm sure that's due to my settings within the iNuke app...but what settings are you all using? If anyone could post screenshots of their equalizer graphs, db stuff. Anything really :P
I've tried messing around with it and I've gone from just a general constant vibrating happening all the time to what almost feels like I thought it would? I'm now getting somewhat punchy jolts with guns for instance but it's still hit or miss and feels sorta loose.
For starters you should run the Crowson flat with no eq.
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post #1158 of 2451 Old 10-30-2017, 12:49 PM
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I started with an unequalized signal going to a minidsp 2x4. I had the best results by reducing the frequencies around 50 hertz by about 4 db and using a fairly wide Q so it gradually reduced the frequencies between 30 and 70hertz which were the most annoying with my seating. I like to keep the frequencies 80hz and higher on because they make the speech in movies more impactful. I would try youtube test tones between 10 and 100 hertz and see which ones are desirable with your seating and start from there.


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Originally Posted by MassiveG View Post
So the 2 Crowsons came in a couple days ago and I'm terrible at setting these up!

I've got them wired properly to the iNuke 3000dsp amp and receiver, they seem to work okay? But I'm honestly kinda unimpressed. I'm sure that's due to my settings within the iNuke app...but what settings are you all using? If anyone could post screenshots of their equalizer graphs, db stuff. Anything really :P
I've tried messing around with it and I've gone from just a general constant vibrating happening all the time to what almost feels like I thought it would? I'm now getting somewhat punchy jolts with guns for instance but it's still hit or miss and feels sorta loose.

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post #1159 of 2451 Old 10-30-2017, 02:06 PM
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I like to keep the frequencies 80hz and higher on because they make the speech in movies more impactful.
Why would you want that? (Just curious.)
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post #1160 of 2451 Old 10-31-2017, 10:38 AM
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Personal preference. Works well IMO at lower volumes and remember it is a very small range of frequencies under the center crossover.
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Why would you want that? (Just curious.)

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post #1161 of 2451 Old 11-03-2017, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
For starters you should run the Crowson flat with no eq.
I can confirm this. For convenience sake I split my Crowsons off my NF sub (Audyssey settings and all) and ran it like that for awhile. I really liked it a lot. But SBuger had mentioned he was running his off his OPPO sub out for a pure signal. Tonight I decided to do the same. WOW! Definitely a noticeable difference.
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post #1162 of 2451 Old 11-03-2017, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I can confirm this. For convenience sake I split my Crowsons off my NF sub (Audyssey settings and all) and ran it like that for awhile. I really liked it a lot. But SBuger had mentioned he was running his off his OPPO sub out for a pure signal. Tonight I decided to do the same. WOW! Definitely a noticeable difference.
What do people do, who don't have an OPPO?
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post #1163 of 2451 Old 11-03-2017, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I can confirm this. For convenience sake I split my Crowsons off my NF sub (Audyssey settings and all) and ran it like that for awhile. I really liked it a lot. But SBuger had mentioned he was running his off his OPPO sub out for a pure signal. Tonight I decided to do the same. WOW! Definitely a noticeable difference.
Nice, I'm glad you tried it.

I've done both. I've mainly used the OPPO, then one of the AVR subouts for a while, and currently and for the last 6 months or so I'm back to the OPPO. I just prefer the OPPO after experimenting with it quite a bit. Pro's and Con's to both, but I think I ultimately liked the OPPO method better because it just feels cleaner and more detailed to me, even though I set it up real similar to the way coolrda does so that Audy didn't EQ it much at all and have all subs on one subout and the MAs/TT's on the other. It looked great in VS (combined great with subs), maybe a little better than using the OPPO (almost looks as good though), but just felt better subjectively. IDK, maybe I was doing something wrong and may try it again at some point, but for now I love the OPPO method and am very used to it.

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What do people do, who don't have an OPPO?
If you don't want to use your AVR and don't have an OPPO, you just need a player with an Analog Subout, then go into speaker setup and set your crossovers and delays for bass management within the player. Intensity can be controlled with the volume control on the remote (set to variable on the OPPO, probably something similar with a different player).

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post #1164 of 2451 Old 11-04-2017, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
If you don't want to use your AVR and don't have an OPPO, you just need a player with an Analog Subout, then go into speaker setup and set your crossovers and delays for bass management within the player. Intensity can be controlled with the volume control on the remote (set to variable on the OPPO, probably something similar with a different player).
What about the difference in delay between direct from the player vs the added processing delay through the AVR's sub outs? Admittedly we're talking about really low frequencies, but if the AVR's delay also includes additional delay for video lip sync, then we can be talking well over 100 msec of AVR delay. If the upper end of the TT is 40 Hz, then one cycle of that is only around 25 msec.

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post #1165 of 2451 Old 11-04-2017, 04:55 PM
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What about the difference in delay between direct from the player vs the added processing delay through the AVR's sub outs? Admittedly we're talking about really low frequencies, but if the AVR's delay also includes additional delay for video lip sync, then we can be talking well over 100 msec of AVR delay. If the upper end of the TT is 40 Hz, then one cycle of that is only around 25 msec.
Yeah it can be kind of tricky, especially when throwing lip sync in there. I had to mess with delays for lip sync and time alignment with the subs from the AVR and MA's/TT's from the OPPO . VibSensor really helps with TA of the Crowsons and Subs. If its off, they can cancel each other out at certain frequencies kind of like two subs out of phase can (a little or a lot). If it's off a fair amount, it can really be felt subjectively. Craig John (thread starter) had a couple of good explanations somewhere around here on how to get the timing close for starters when using the OPPO.

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post #1166 of 2451 Old 11-04-2017, 09:25 PM
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Yeah it can be kind of tricky, especially when throwing lip sync in there. I had to mess with delays for lip sync and time alignment with the subs from the AVR and MA's/TT's from the OPPO . VibSensor really helps with TA of the Crowsons and Subs. If its off, they can cancel each other out at certain frequencies kind of like two subs out of phase can (a little or a lot). If it's off a fair amount, it can really be felt subjectively. Craig John (thread starter) had a couple of good explanations somewhere around here on how to get the timing close for starters when using the OPPO.
Looks like you can compensate for quite a bit of delay if you're using an iNuke DSP to drive Crowsons. I just looked in my iNuke manual, and it shows you can add '100 m' of delay between speakers which I take to mean 100 meters, or more than 300 msec. It makes sense they can add this much delay since they're designed for outdoor concerts with large distances between speakers.

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post #1167 of 2451 Old 11-05-2017, 06:07 AM
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Yeah it can be kind of tricky, especially when throwing lip sync in there. I had to mess with delays for lip sync and time alignment with the subs from the AVR and MA's/TT's from the OPPO . VibSensor really helps with TA of the Crowsons and Subs. If its off, they can cancel each other out at certain frequencies kind of like two subs out of phase can (a little or a lot). If it's off a fair amount, it can really be felt subjectively. Craig John (thread starter) had a couple of good explanations somewhere around here on how to get the timing close for starters when using the OPPO.
Yep. I know its been written that even TA thats 30ms off isn't an issue with subs such as front rear array. I can easily hear the difference that change in delay does to the magnitude response. But i guess its not terribly objectionable. I found though, that when it comes to TR, theres a considerable difference with 3ms, like huge, when the MA's are put in play. Even 1ms can be felt. I've found that to be the big problem guys are having with integrating the Crowsons in their system, far more so than having an EQ issue. It really does cancel/null your TR and robs one of performance. Thats why I run all subs off one channel after REQ and setup is done. While I can feel the difference, VS does back that up. Best way to describe it is when properly setup, ULF transients have a razor sharp, defined quality to them.
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post #1168 of 2451 Old 11-05-2017, 06:39 AM
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Yep. I know its been written that even TA thats 30ms off isn't an issue with subs such as front rear array. I can easily hear the difference that change in delay does to the magnitude response. But i guess its not terribly objectionable. I found though, that when it comes to TR, theres a considerable difference with 3ms, like huge, when the MA's are put in play. Even 1ms can be felt. I've found that to be the big problem guys are having with integrating the Crowsons in their system, far more so than having an EQ issue. It really does cancel/null your TR and robs one of performance. Thats why I run all subs off one channel after REQ and setup is done. While I can feel the difference, VS does back that up. Best way to describe it is when properly setup, ULF transients have a razor sharp, defined quality to them.
It would be nice if AVR manufacturers started giving us separate outputs for TTs vs subs. It seems very clusmy to get the optimal settings for both LF device types any other way. Another issue with using your BluRay player's output is you can't get the same TT optimizations for other sources without going thru another set of source switches into the TT path (and then having to remember to switch everything properly every time you change sources). I'm not looking to patent this idea, so any AVR manufacturers out there, please feel free.
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post #1169 of 2451 Old 11-05-2017, 06:50 AM
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Yep. I know its been written that even TA thats 30ms off isn't an issue with subs such as front rear array. I can easily hear the difference that change in delay does to the magnitude response. But i guess its not terribly objectionable. I found though, that when it comes to TR, theres a considerable difference with 3ms, like huge, when the MA's are put in play. Even 1ms can be felt. I've found that to be the big problem guys are having with integrating the Crowsons in their system, far more so than having an EQ issue. It really does cancel/null your TR and robs one of performance. Thats why I run all subs off one channel after REQ and setup is done. While I can feel the difference, VS does back that up. Best way to describe it is when properly setup, ULF transients have a razor sharp, defined quality to them.
If they were still alive today, there's probably several famous French mathematicians that would agree whole-heartedly that phase is every bit as important as magnitude.

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post #1170 of 2451 Old 11-05-2017, 08:15 AM
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It would be nice if AVR manufacturers started giving us separate outputs for TTs vs subs. It seems very clusmy to get the optimal settings for both LF device types any other way. Another issue with using your BluRay player's output is you can't get the same TT optimizations for other sources without going thru another set of source switches into the TT path (and then having to remember to switch everything properly every time you change sources). I'm not looking to patent this idea, so any AVR manufacturers out there, please feel free.
Yep. I think it was Not that has a preamp with 3 subouts so he has a dedicated output.
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