The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 41 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1201 of 2345 Old 12-08-2017, 09:48 PM
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Finally got my single Shadow 8 actuator. I've only got about an hour on it so far and I have two observations. I can finally feel something during effing Irene...and I think I need to order another one of these things.
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post #1202 of 2345 Old 12-08-2017, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Finally got my single Shadow 8 actuator. I've only got about an hour on it so far and I have two observations. I can finally feel something during effing Irene...and I think I need to order another one of these things.
LOOL, that’s usually the way it goes

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post #1203 of 2345 Old 12-09-2017, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Finally got my single Shadow 8 actuator. I've only got about an hour on it so far and I have two observations. I can finally feel something during effing Irene...and I think I need to order another one of these things.
Congratulations Alan. And yes, they are addicting.

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post #1204 of 2345 Old 12-09-2017, 11:01 AM
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Am I running the MA too hot on the iNuke if I'm only two clicks down on the gain from where it shuts down?? Not sure how to adjust for max output without overloading it. Running with no EQ and no lpf or hpf for now.
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post #1205 of 2345 Old 12-09-2017, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Am I running the MA too hot on the iNuke if I'm only two clicks down on the gain from where it shuts down?? Not sure how to adjust for max output without overloading it. Running with no EQ and no lpf or hpf for now.
Congrats. Doesn’t the inuke have an adjustable limiter? 63v or 500w is the limit. You can set it with a 0db 20hz sine and an rms VM.
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post #1206 of 2345 Old 12-09-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Congrats. Doesn’t the inuke have an adjustable limiter? 63v or 500w is the limit. You can set it with a 0db 20hz sine and an rms VM.


Yes it does; set the limiter to 500w and you’re good to go. I only have my iNuke turned up a couple notches as well and it gives the Crowson’s full power when needed. I posted a picture of my 6000DSP settings a little while back for someone, so it’s in my pic history.

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post #1207 of 2345 Old 12-09-2017, 03:04 PM
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I have my iNuke gains set at 1:00 with a 490 W limiter and it's running with a pure signal from the Oppo 203 with it's volume at 100%. I usually hit 2 orange lights in intense scenes. War of the Worlds pod scene hit three orange lights. I'm trying to avoid the red clipping lights. But I don't know if they make a difference with the limiter set.

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post #1208 of 2345 Old 12-09-2017, 04:30 PM
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Where can you set the watts limit? Using the Remote Connect program, I'm only seeing dBfs and Vp under Peak Limiter. There is a W box, but no matter what I do there is only a "-" in it.
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post #1209 of 2345 Old 12-09-2017, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Yes it does; set the limiter to 500w and you’re good to go. I only have my iNuke turned up a couple notches as well and it gives the Crowson’s full power when needed. I posted a picture of my 6000DSP settings a little while back for someone, so it’s in my pic history.
How do I find your pic history? I looked in your profile but didn't find it.
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post #1210 of 2345 Old 12-09-2017, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Where can you set the watts limit? Using the Remote Connect program, I'm only seeing dBfs and Vp under Peak Limiter. There is a W box, but no matter what I do there is only a "-" in it.
Set the Ohm rating first, then the watts becomes available. And one Shadow 8 is 8 ohm.

Remember to save your setting to a memory slot on the inuke, otherwise it may reset when connected again.
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post #1211 of 2345 Old 12-10-2017, 08:10 AM
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I want to post this here. This is what I believe is the Reference Tactile Response of the Crowson MA taken at the Reference Listening Position in a typical Home Theater environment.

The TR chain consists of solid wood floor, HT Market Pembroke HT Recliner, Oppo 203, Marantz 7702mk2, SpeakerPower SP12k, MiniDSP, Crowson MAx2 per seat. The measurement process consists on using the VS app in your PED of choice, DL the WN0-50 test tone(white noise 0-50hz), set the VS to 5 sec delay and 10sec duration, start the Run and cover the PED with a 5lb bag of rice. The test tone should be running prior to the start of recording. No eq of any kind should be engaged. My prepro sub ch is set at -12db. Main Volume for this test is 0db. No speakers should be on while running the test, MAs only. I you happen to be running a SP amp the gain setting is 6 clicks from off.

The purpose is only to verify your system is working properly. I recommended the Behringer EP4000 in the past but no longer do due to issues I found with it below 12hz. It could be as simple as a defective amp. I with look into this further. My point in bringing this up is ninety nine times out of a hundred if your having a problem with your MA's not performing to this reference, its what the MAs are sitting on or pushing against. The iNukes don't appear to have the issue I had with the EP4K. None of your electonics, regardless of brand, make or type, should be the issue. All decent HT seating is built really well. I don't think you'll see much variance there either. Amplitude/magnitude isn't important. Flat response is the important thing. The Crowson have about as perfect linear response between 10-30hz as you can ask for. The only signal processing used on the MAs is a B/W 48db LPF.

We set reference level TR at 1e-03 or 0.001. We also talked about 1e-04 or some place in between. We had to set it somewhere. 115db LFE wasn't a standard until THX and Dolby set it there. Until I work out the SPL part of this equation out, the blending the MAs to the sub, I won't have any imput either way. The WN050 will feel like a lot of TR because of the wideband and it should as its representative of the most demanding type of tactile effect.

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post #1212 of 2345 Old 12-11-2017, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Set the Ohm rating first, then the watts becomes available. And one Shadow 8 is 8 ohm.

Remember to save your setting to a memory slot on the inuke, otherwise it may reset when connected again.
Thanks Nalleh! That did the trick.
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post #1213 of 2345 Old 12-11-2017, 11:27 AM
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OK guys,

After spending the weekend with my (single) Crowson MA/6000DSP combo, I have a few questions for those of you using the iNuke with the Crowsons:

1) In order to set the WATT limit, I have to either adjust the dBfs or Vp limits. In doing so, I am only able to get *close* to 500w (499.5w). Is there a way to get it at exactly 500w? Probably doesn't really matter though....

2) Should the Mode be set to Dual Mono, or...? Dual Mono is where I currently have it, using only the A output.

3) I currently have my Low Pass set to 90hz (same as my speaker xover). This seems to blend better than higher settings that I've tried, any lower and it seems I am losing too much "shake". Does this sound about right?

4) What does it mean when the MA just stops working? Am I reaching the thermal limits of the MA? This only happened a couple times when I first hooked it up and didn't have the Peak Limit set. I was looping the WoW Pod scene and kept turning it up....I think I went a bit too far.



So far, I'm really digging what the Crowson adds to the HT experience! Like I said, along with F***** Irene and a few other U-ULF scenes, I am feeling frequencies I've never had the output to properly experience. But not only that, the MA adds a lot to the higher bass frequencies as well...a kind of "fullness" is added to the audible bass (Hop and others described this phenomena previously in the thread). I did indeed end up turning my subwoofers down a couple dB.

I'm still messing with settings and I want to experiment some more with placement of the MA. Right now, I have the MA under the rear, right corner of the chair and I can definitely tell it shakes the right side of the chair more than the left. Tonight I am going to try placing the MA dead center under the chair, using four isolators (I've installed plywood under the chair). Have any of you tried that sort of placement with any success? Or, would it work better centered along the rear or front? Pretty sure the answer is going to be "try it for yourself" because that's what I always say.
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post #1214 of 2345 Old 12-11-2017, 02:22 PM
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That's awesome Alan. I'm glad you're having fun with your new toy. I'll do my best to answer some of your questions.

1. You got a lot closer than I did setting the limiter. I have my limiter set at somewhere around 495 watts. I didn't set it at 500 watts because no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get it to land on 500 using the mouse pad of the lap top. I'm close enough IMO.

2. Dual Mono is where I have mine set.

3. I have my low pass filter set at 55.

4. I haven't had my Crowsons cut out on me but I had my limiter set up before I played anything. As long as it is still working then I would say you are safe.

5. As far as where to put the Crowson I would say try different locations and see what works best for you.
Actually, I'm curious to see what you think trying it in the middle of the seat. But I think in the end you'll want a 2nd one because they are kind of addicting.

I hope some of this helps.
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post #1215 of 2345 Old 12-11-2017, 03:15 PM
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Thanks for the input, Hop!

I'm currently wasting time at work re-reading some of the older posts in the thread, and I ran across this nugget from @coolrda :

Quote:
How did it feel? With a MA at each foot it felt like a mini D-Box. This was with them sitting on carpet/pad. Think of it as intense but mostly single axis. What I've found is that even when your peak PSD is the same, 2 close or equal axes response is far more tactile than 1. With MA's in the rear only, you have a throw arc(tilt/hinge effect)even if it 1/1000 of a degree. I believe this excites the Y axis(frontback)to match and even exceed the Z axis(up/down).
In order to get the "hinge" effect, the MAs need to be mounted at the front or rear of the seating. I would assume if I mount the MA dead center under the chair, it will eliminate the hinge effect which looks to be more desirable (and makes sense if you think about it). I'll still probably try it in the center though, just to see for myself.

Another good piece of advice I ran across was; if you have carpet, put a piece of plywood down over the carpet first then place the MA + isolators + chair on top of that. This will help mitigate the "squishy-ness" of the carpet/padding and help transfer more of the vertical energy to the chair. I plan on doing this tonight as well.
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post #1216 of 2345 Old 12-11-2017, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Another good piece of advice I ran across was; if you have carpet, put a piece of plywood down over the carpet first then place the MA + isolators + chair on top of that. This will help mitigate the "squishy-ness" of the carpet/padding and help transfer more of the vertical energy to the chair. I plan on doing this tonight as well.
Yep... thats exactly what I did. I'm on carpet so I put down thin (about 1/4" thickness) plywood squares under each isolator pad and both MAs. I saw that @SBuger did this with his set up in his living room and it made sense to me. It seems to work really well.
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post #1218 of 2345 Old 12-12-2017, 07:56 AM
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Last night, I put down a piece of plywood for the isolators and MA to rest upon, and it seemed to make quite a difference.

I ended up changing the LPF to 50hz, BW 48dB (based on an earlier recommendation from @coolrda ) and turning the gain on the iNuke down a notch.

I still have the MA under the right rear corner of the chair, ran out of time to test other locations. But, with the plywood base, it seems to be much less localizable now. The chair is shaking much more evenly than before.


One thing I am concerned about; the only plywood I had on hand is OSB (Oriented Strand Board) and it's not the most rigid. Should I plan to get something a bit more sturdy? Any recommendations?? I am not a very handy guy and know next to nothing about plywood.
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post #1219 of 2345 Old 12-12-2017, 10:43 AM
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Sorry for posting so much...but hey, I just got an MA, what can I say.

Just had a random thought; since I have carpet with a piece of plywood on top of that, would it make sense to mount spikes on that piece of plywood so it is coupled directly to the concrete below the carpet?

I think I have some speaker spikes laying around here somewhere........
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post #1220 of 2345 Old 12-12-2017, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Last night, I put down a piece of plywood for the isolators and MA to rest upon, and it seemed to make quite a difference.

I ended up changing the LPF to 50hz, BW 48dB (based on an earlier recommendation from @coolrda ) and turning the gain on the iNuke down a notch.

I still have the MA under the right rear corner of the chair, ran out of time to test other locations. But, with the plywood base, it seems to be much less localizable now. The chair is shaking much more evenly than before.


One thing I am concerned about; the only plywood I had on hand is OSB (Oriented Strand Board) and it's not the most rigid. Should I plan to get something a bit more sturdy? Any recommendations?? I am not a very handy guy and know next to nothing about plywood.
The OSB should be fine Alan. It's supported by floor so it's shouldn't be a problem.

Quote:
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Sorry for posting so much...but hey, I just got an MA, what can I say.

Just had a random thought; since I have carpet with a piece of plywood on top of that, would it make sense to mount spikes on that piece of plywood so it is coupled directly to the concrete below the carpet?

I think I have some speaker spikes laying around here somewhere........
That would be interesting. I doubt it would make much difference but it might be worth some experimentation.
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post #1221 of 2345 Old 12-12-2017, 02:35 PM
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I'm more concerned about the OSB I'm using for the top layer, the layer that the MA is pushing against. I can't help but think that a more sturdy wood (oak?) would work better. I've got a contractor buddy, so I could probably get some oak scraps for cheap/free.

Tonight I'm going to experiment with the spikes (if I can find them in my Big Box of Wires) and also fool around with some PEQ and DEQ (after doing a bunch of reading today about the DEQ in the iNukes).

That is, if I can tear myself away from playing AVS Demo Discs long enough to get something accomplished!
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post #1222 of 2345 Old 12-12-2017, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I'm more concerned about the OSB I'm using for the top layer, the layer that the MA is pushing against. I can't help but think that a more sturdy wood (oak?) would work better. I've got a contractor buddy, so I could probably get some oak scraps for cheap/free.

Tonight I'm going to experiment with the spikes (if I can find them in my Big Box of Wires) and also fool around with some PEQ and DEQ (after doing a bunch of reading today about the DEQ in the iNukes).

That is, if I can tear myself away from playing AVS Demo Discs long enough to get something accomplished!
What thickness is the OSB you are using on the top piece?

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post #1223 of 2345 Old 12-12-2017, 03:14 PM
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post #1224 of 2345 Old 12-12-2017, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Half inch. Both are half inch.
I'm using 1/2 plywood and it works fine but as you mentioned, OSB is a little more flexible than plywood. Here are my thoughts and I'll be honest, this is just me guessing. I think you will be fine, especially if your chair has four legs instead of a metal frame, which I assume it does. Where as my couch has a metal frame that had about a dozen plastic feet attached to it, so I removed the little feet and the entire metal frame now sits in contact with the plywood.

This means there is weight resting on the entire sheet of plywood, even where the wood isn't supported underneath with the isolator pads or the MA's. For this type of application I would want the sturdier plywood... however, I bet the OSB would work okay. But if you have four legs (instead of a frame) and each leg rests on the OSB which is supported underneath with the isolator pads and the MA then I think the OSB would be fine.

I hope that makes sense.

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post #1225 of 2345 Old 12-13-2017, 08:21 AM
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My recliner actually has a metal frame, no legs. I attached the first piece of OSB directly to the frame (with 4 bolts) and it seems pretty sturdy, I just worry about it flexing if I were to put the MA anywhere other than directly under the frame (which is only on the right and left sides, as I removed the cross bars in order to attach the plywood).

I didn't get a chance to test other locations last night as I was messing around with setting limits, PEQ and DEQ most of the evening.

I set the limits following advice from @coolrda in his post here using the EoT opening. I hit the thermal limit on the MA more than a couple times doing this...and after looping that clip about 20 times, man, that Crowson got HOT! Anyways, I found the limits and all seems to be well.

After that, I started messing with a high shelf filter on the iNuke to get flat to 10hz using this post from @Shreds . It most definitely increases the wobble under 10hz and I really like it! Be aware that the high shelf filter will cut the response over 20hz, so you need to bump up the gain a bit to compensate. You also need to find the limits again after this.

DEQ was next, mostly following advice from this 6000DSP DEQ thread. It is definitely effective, but I'm not sure if I have it optimized yet. I pretty much listen at the same MV most of the time, so DEQ doesn't really benefit me all that much. I usually listen around -15MV to -12MV, but I was watching The Equalizer and turned it down to -20MV and then to -25MV and the DEQ kept the MA at a good, natural feeling level for those lower MV settings and didn't feel overpowering at all (as Audyssey DEQ can). The DEQ on the iNuke works, and it works well, I think I just need to mess with the settings more...after I actually acquire more understanding of what they do.

Then, I tried running with both the high shelf and DEQ at the same time. This seemed to negate the need to bump up the gain after applying the high shelf and provided a good balance between both the PEQ alone and the DEQ alone. So far, I'm really liking it...but I only watched with these settings for about a half hour last night before it got too late.

I've attached screenshots of the DEQ and PEQ high shelf filter settings that I'm currently using...I'm sure these will change after more tweaking.

Still thinking I'm probably going to get a second MA, but I need to mess with placement first to confirm that and I plan on doing that tonight. When I was finding the limits of my single MA, I couldn't help thniking that more headroom would be nice to have.
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post #1226 of 2345 Old 12-13-2017, 06:45 PM
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So here is something I'm noticing with recliner seats and the Crowsons. The leg rest really has some great tactile impact. When I have the recliner back and my legs resting on the leg rest I experience some great tactile feed back, I assume this is because the leg rest is just kind of hanging out there in free space. It's a great full body impact. Does anyone else with recliner seats notice this?

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post #1227 of 2345 Old 12-13-2017, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
So here is something I'm noticing with recliner seats and the Crowsons. The leg rest really has some great tactile impact. When I have the recliner back and my legs resting on the leg rest I experience some great tactile feed back, I assume this is because the leg rest is just kind of hanging out there in free space. It's a great full body impact. Does anyone else with recliner seats notice this?


I experience this too. For those of us without true risers that extend all the way to the feet, putting the legs up and resting your feet with knees bent or fully reclined on the leg rest allows more TR to hit the body.

I’m glad to see some new faces enjoying their Crowson’s so much. These things really are something special.
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post #1228 of 2345 Old 12-14-2017, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
So here is something I'm noticing with recliner seats and the Crowsons. The leg rest really has some great tactile impact. When I have the recliner back and my legs resting on the leg rest I experience some great tactile feed back, I assume this is because the leg rest is just kind of hanging out there in free space. It's a great full body impact. Does anyone else with recliner seats notice this?
I've actually notice on the EoT intro that the 10hz tone shakes my leg rest a lot more than the rest of the chair. The leg rest kind of oscillates to the left and the right a good inch or so while the rest of the chair goes up and down maybe 1/4".

I still didn't get around to testing more locations...I'm sure the effect might be different if I were to put the MA under the front of the chair.

One annoying little niggle; I have to be careful when getting off/on the chair because the chair will slide a bit on top the lower plywood piece. I was getting up last night and kind of pushed off with my calves touching the chair and I moved it back a good 2-3" and it's not really easy to get it lined up again. Has anyone found a solution for that? I thought about covering the lower piece of plywood with something that would help the sorbothane feet "stick" better, but not sure what to use.
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post #1229 of 2345 Old 12-14-2017, 08:50 AM
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I've actually notice on the EoT intro that the 10hz tone shakes my leg rest a lot more than the rest of the chair. The leg rest kind of oscillates to the left and the right a good inch or so while the rest of the chair goes up and down maybe 1/4".

I still didn't get around to testing more locations...I'm sure the effect might be different if I were to put the MA under the front of the chair.

One annoying little niggle; I have to be careful when getting off/on the chair because the chair will slide a bit on top the lower plywood piece. I was getting up last night and kind of pushed off with my calves touching the chair and I moved it back a good 2-3" and it's not really easy to get it lined up again. Has anyone found a solution for that? I thought about covering the lower piece of plywood with something that would help the sorbothane feet "stick" better, but not sure what to use.
With the couch I don't have that issue, probably due to size. Go out and buy some of that grip tape that they use on steps and skate boards... that should do the trick.

https://www.amazon.com/XFasten-15-Fo...ape+for+stairs
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post #1230 of 2345 Old 12-14-2017, 09:44 AM
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