The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 42 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1231 of 2451 Old 12-14-2017, 01:53 PM
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@Alan P You are not talking too much! In fact, I can see you are very excited and I am learning so much from you asking questions since I still plan on trying Crowsons myself. I came in here last year to learn on it and became interested, then lost interest after moving my dual subs right behind my couch....and then became interested again after a neighbor rings my door bell complaining of loud bass shaking her walls after warching Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2....and I only watch movies at 70db. So it looks like crowsons will allow me to enjoy the system while turning down the subs and still feel like I have my subs blasting......talking about win/win situation for me and my neighbor....am I about right? LOL

Enjoy those crowsons Alan P and ramble all you want....love learning things! Carry on the butt shaking talk!
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post #1232 of 2451 Old 12-16-2017, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
^^^

Great idea! Thanks Hop!
The spikes sound like they may work. Use lots especially under the MA.
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post #1233 of 2451 Old 12-17-2017, 08:40 PM
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I ordered a set of 4 of these for my one couch and hope to have them next week.

At normal levels that you guys regularly use these at, what distance do they actually move the couch up and down?

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post #1234 of 2451 Old 12-18-2017, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I ordered a set of 4 of these for my one couch and hope to have them next week.

At normal levels that you guys regularly use these at, what distance do they actually move the couch up and down?
These have a 0.25" max excursion rating. I would consider a 1/16-1/8" a significant amount of excursion with these and only in the single digits. Even a mm of travel is a lot at certain frequencys.
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post #1235 of 2451 Old 12-18-2017, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
These have a 0.25" max excursion rating. I would consider a 1/16-1/8" a significant amount of excursion with these and only in the single digits. Even a mm of travel is a lot at certain frequencys.
Thanks. I was mostly just curious if they generated any measurable SPL by moving the huge surface area of a leather couch the tiny amount that they move. After all, the surface area of my reclined couch is equivalent to 20+ 18" drivers.

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post #1236 of 2451 Old 12-18-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Thanks. I was mostly just curious if they generated any measurable SPL by moving the huge surface area of a leather couch the tiny amount that they move. After all, the surface area of my reclined couch is equivalent to 20+ 18" drivers.
With 4 MAs you’ll get a SPL reading due to the vibration. Mine makes a lot of noise if someone’s not sitting in the seat. A seat can’t generate a sound wave. Too compliant. Think sub without the cone.
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post #1237 of 2451 Old 12-18-2017, 10:44 AM
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Well, after another full weekend of movies (and demo clips) I've made a few adjustments....imagine that!

I cut the high shelf from 3dB to only 1.5dB and cut the boost on the DEQ from 8dB to 4dB. With the higher settings, the MA was just a tad overpowering.

Turned my sub trims down 2dB more...now running about 6dB lower than I was pre-Crowson. This is the thing I find most astounding. I just don't seem to need all that crazy sub boost like before. I used to be running the subs about 13-14dB hot...now, only around 7-8dB and everything just sounds better. I also find myself watching movies at a slightly lower MV setting than before; 2-3dB depending on the movie.

I did experiment with placement a bit as well; I tried the MA at both the dead-center of the chair and at both the center-back and center-front of the chair. All three placements were extremely underwhelming compared to the right rear corner where the MA is directly underneath the metal frame of the chair. I'm guessing this is because of the lack of metal crossbars under the chair combined with the flexibility of the OSB.


I haven't listened to a whole lot of music since getting the MA, but last night I watched the blu ray of John Mayer: Where the Light Is and it sounded very sweet indeed. This disc has an outstanding mix and I've watched it quite a few times...it has never sounded as good as it does with the Crowson in the mix. The bass guitar had a weight to it that was missing before, and the drum hits gained a certain "attack" and "impact".

Loving my MA!
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post #1238 of 2451 Old 12-18-2017, 12:24 PM
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^^ That's awesome Alan. I knew you would love your Crowson once you got it. I've experienced the same as you, I listen at lower volumes now on the MV and I run my subs less hot. It's really amazing how that works. It definitely tricks the brain.

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post #1239 of 2451 Old 12-20-2017, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, after another full weekend of movies (and demo clips) I've made a few adjustments....imagine that!

I cut the high shelf from 3dB to only 1.5dB and cut the boost on the DEQ from 8dB to 4dB. With the higher settings, the MA was just a tad overpowering.

Turned my sub trims down 2dB more...now running about 6dB lower than I was pre-Crowson. This is the thing I find most astounding. I just don't seem to need all that crazy sub boost like before. I used to be running the subs about 13-14dB hot...now, only around 7-8dB and everything just sounds better. I also find myself watching movies at a slightly lower MV setting than before; 2-3dB depending on the movie.

I did experiment with placement a bit as well; I tried the MA at both the dead-center of the chair and at both the center-back and center-front of the chair. All three placements were extremely underwhelming compared to the right rear corner where the MA is directly underneath the metal frame of the chair. I'm guessing this is because of the lack of metal crossbars under the chair combined with the flexibility of the OSB.


I haven't listened to a whole lot of music since getting the MA, but last night I watched the blu ray of John Mayer: Where the Light Is and it sounded very sweet indeed. This disc has an outstanding mix and I've watched it quite a few times...it has never sounded as good as it does with the Crowson in the mix. The bass guitar had a weight to it that was missing before, and the drum hits gained a certain "attack" and "impact".

Loving my MA!
Hi Alan,

I agree completely with being able to turn down sub trims and/or overall volume if you have means of creating adequate TR in lieu of high sound pressure levels. IMO most people crank up the bass because they're after a certain level of TR they can feel. I started a new thread in the Audio Chat forum several days ago discussing REQ target curves and TR.

I see a big opportunity here for hobbyists and the industry in general to develop ways to more efficiently generate TR across a wide frequency range (probably higher than the Crowsons should go) while balancing this TR with appropriate sound levels. But I think we'll probably need a lot more widespread support before sub and AVR/prepro manufacturers start to address TR directly. As I mentioned in the other thread (and have seen else where in this forum), room correction may one day evolve into calibrations based on simultaneous mic and accelerometer measurements.

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post #1240 of 2451 Old 12-20-2017, 11:25 AM
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Sorry for posting so much...but hey, I just got an MA, what can I say.

Just had a random thought; since I have carpet with a piece of plywood on top of that, would it make sense to mount spikes on that piece of plywood so it is coupled directly to the concrete below the carpet?

I think I have some speaker spikes laying around here somewhere........
Did you ever do this with the spikes? I think this might actually be a great idea if your on carpet and pad and want to get the most out of your MA's. I just may try this since I'm on carpet and pad with plywood (mine are squares) as well for the MA's to push into. @coolrda says he gained about 10db TR going from carpet and pad to hardwood floor. That's a lot of difference. This does make sense, since range of motion on these is small (like 1/8 -1/4" max I think). I was going to remove the pad under my carpet underneath my seat, but I think I may try this first. I'm thinking it could work great if it gives them something hard to push against that doesn't have any give to it (or a least not much).
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post #1241 of 2451 Old 12-20-2017, 09:26 PM
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Penn-Elcom 9106 rubber isolators question.

I ordered a bunch of these from Parts Express to isolate my theater seats from the concrete floor for transducers, I was expecting squishy rubber but these are hockey puck hard. Then I heard that there are two varieties of these. Markertek was said in another thread to have the same isolators but that they were a softer durometer rubber that is better and like sorbothane. I ordered some from Markertek and they are identical to the hard rubber (almost plastic) from Parts Express. Hmmm. I am not sure how this hard rubber is any better than the plastic ones that come on the chairs, except maybe they raise it off floor carpet a bit better and have a smaller point of contact?

So,.... are there several species of Penn-Elcom 9106 rubber feet? If so, which are better and where do I get them? Are the Crowson isolators softer than the hard rubber 9106? Anyone use the hard hockey puck 9106? I am using ADX Maximus transducers. Thanks.
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post #1242 of 2451 Old 12-21-2017, 04:42 AM
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Buttkicker vs crowsons

I had a buttkcicker wireless kit that I used when I had some sensitive neighbors. But retired it when the neighbours moved. I remember having to constantly use the remote to up or down the BK depending on the movie and the shake also seemed kind of artificial to me. Just wondering how the crowsons are compared to the Butt kicker?

I am kicking my butt ( pun intended) to have sold that unit. Also why is a single crowson MA 3 times the cost of a BK?
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post #1243 of 2451 Old 12-21-2017, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnymenudo View Post
Penn-Elcom 9106 rubber isolators question.

I ordered a bunch of these from Parts Express to isolate my theater seats from the concrete floor for transducers, I was expecting squishy rubber but these are hockey puck hard. Then I heard that there are two varieties of these. Markertek was said in another thread to have the same isolators but that they were a softer durometer rubber that is better and like sorbothane. I ordered some from Markertek and they are identical to the hard rubber (almost plastic) from Parts Express. Hmmm. I am not sure how this hard rubber is any better than the plastic ones that come on the chairs, except maybe they raise it off floor carpet a bit better and have a smaller point of contact?

So,.... are there several species of Penn-Elcom 9106 rubber feet? If so, which are better and where do I get them? Are the Crowson isolators softer than the hard rubber 9106? Anyone use the hard hockey puck 9106? I am using ADX Maximus transducers. Thanks.
Post about feet
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post #1244 of 2451 Old 12-21-2017, 12:04 PM
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Also why is a single crowson MA 3 times the cost of a BK?

Component/build quality (hand made to the highest standards) and manufacturing origin (USA vs PRC). Crowson are worth it.

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post #1245 of 2451 Old 12-21-2017, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rsmt2000 View Post
I had a buttkcicker wireless kit that I used when I had some sensitive neighbors. But retired it when the neighbours moved. I remember having to constantly use the remote to up or down the BK depending on the movie and the shake also seemed kind of artificial to me. Just wondering how the crowsons are compared to the Butt kicker?

I am kicking my butt ( pun intended) to have sold that unit. Also why is a single crowson MA 3 times the cost of a BK?
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Component/build quality (hand made to the highest standards) and manufacturing origin (USA vs PRC). Crowson are worth it.
I have the Crowson MA's and BK LFE's. Both are great but work differently. The BK's are more gain sensitive than the MA's and can be powerful as hell in the 10-27hz range. But this needs to be kept in mind or they can get out of control if not careful. The MA's are more even tempered I guess you could say and are easier to blend in with the rest of your system (these are my experiences with the two of them of course)

Sekosche is right, the MA's are great and are worth their price tag.

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post #1246 of 2451 Old 12-21-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Did you ever do this with the spikes? I think this might actually be a great idea if your on carpet and pad and want to get the most out of your MA's. I just may try this since I'm on carpet and pad with plywood (mine are squares) as well for the MA's to push into. @coolrda says he gained about 10db TR going from carpet and pad to hardwood floor. That's a lot of difference. This does make sense, since range of motion on these is small (like 1/8 -1/4" max I think). I was going to remove the pad under my carpet underneath my seat, but I think I may try this first. I'm thinking it could work great if it gives them something hard to push against that doesn't have any give to it (or a least not much).
I have not tried the spikes yet...I know I have a bunch of them around the house somewhere, but for the life of me, I can't find 'em!!

May have to bite the bullet and buy some because I really am curious how if would effect the TR.
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post #1247 of 2451 Old 12-21-2017, 04:48 PM
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^^ I thought I had some around the house too but couldn't find them, so I ordered some off of amazon.

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post #1248 of 2451 Old 12-22-2017, 04:51 PM
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I'm all wired up and ready to install 4 Crowsons under my 2-seat couch as soon as UPS shows up. What level do most people like with the Crowson amp driving 4 MA?

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post #1249 of 2451 Old 12-22-2017, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I'm all wired up and ready to install 4 Crowsons under my 2-seat couch as soon as UPS shows up. What level do most people like with the Crowson amp driving 4 MA?
I'm using the Crowson amp with two actuators and I have the intensity level on default which I believe is 20. I have "movie" mode selected and I lowered the crossover to around 50-60Hz
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post #1250 of 2451 Old 12-22-2017, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I'm all wired up and ready to install 4 Crowsons under my 2-seat couch as soon as UPS shows up. What level do most people like with the Crowson amp driving 4 MA?
I'm a 'set it and forget it' kind of guy, but if I remember correctly it's at 17, movie mode & 40-50Hz.

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post #1251 of 2451 Old 12-23-2017, 08:07 AM
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I watched Pacific Rim last night with the 4 MAs set to intensity of 20 and crossover at 40Hz. I recently built my two subs tuned at 11.5Hz and the difference was huge, but adding these Crowsons it's like I added 10 more subs. These things are incredible, and I haven't even dialed them in yet.

How does everyone time-align their Crowsons? I've started off with distance set to 0 for their channel.

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post #1252 of 2451 Old 12-23-2017, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I watched Pacific Rim last night with the 4 MAs set to intensity of 20 and crossover at 40Hz. I recently built my two subs tuned at 11.5Hz and the difference was huge, but adding these Crowsons it's like I added 10 more subs. These things are incredible, and I haven't even dialed them in yet.

How does everyone time-align their Crowsons? I've started off with distance set to 0 for their channel.
Congrats and enjoy. 0ft is the correct setting and is the longest delay. You time align from there. Start with what your AVR gives you.
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post #1253 of 2451 Old 12-24-2017, 05:15 AM
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Congrats and enjoy. 0ft is the correct setting and is the longest delay. You time align from there. Start with what your AVR gives you.
I think I perceive a slight delay from the MAs, like they are slightly behind the subs. The only reason I can think of for this would be some latency introduced by the Crowson amp.

Edit: I also think I noticed it at the frequencies close to the LPF frequency. Can I possibly be noticing the group delay introduced by the LPF?

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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post #1254 of 2451 Old 12-24-2017, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I think I perceive a slight delay from the MAs, like they are slightly behind the subs. The only reason I can think of for this would be some latency introduced by the Crowson amp.

Edit: I also think I noticed it at the frequencies close to the LPF frequency. Can I possibly be noticing the group delay introduced by the LPF?
Absolutely. I think my minidsp has something like 12ms of processing time depending on function used. Thats why I'm anal about using the exact same sigpath fpr all LFE components even if dsp isn't used. If you think you feel it, you probably do.
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post #1255 of 2451 Old 12-24-2017, 07:01 AM
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Also why is a single crowson MA 3 times the cost of a BK?
1-10hz response. Smooth linear response up to 40hz. Highest quality tactile response that blends perfectly with top shelf subwoofers.
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post #1256 of 2451 Old 12-24-2017, 07:41 AM
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Absolutely. I think my minidsp has something like 12ms of processing time depending on function used. Thats why I'm anal about using the exact same sigpath fpr all LFE components even if dsp isn't used. If you think you feel it, you probably do.
I set the distance on my Crowsons to 2.5' and it seems much better. Strange that I would be able to notice only 2.5ms difference but I really do think I do.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #1257 of 2451 Old 12-24-2017, 10:02 AM
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I watched Pacific Rim last night with the 4 MAs set to intensity of 20 and crossover at 40Hz. I recently built my two subs tuned at 11.5Hz and the difference was huge, but adding these Crowsons it's like I added 10 more subs. These things are incredible, and I haven't even dialed them in yet.

How does everyone time-align their Crowsons? I've started off with distance set to 0 for their channel.
Yeah, Crowsons are not cheap but when you compare the cost of them to what it would cost to add enough subs to match what they do then they become a bargain. Adding Crowsons is worth every penny IMO.
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post #1258 of 2451 Old 12-24-2017, 10:26 AM
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After significant system changes, I finally adjusted my Crowson’s delay and cranked up the dynamic EQ on the iNuke 6K for optimal lower volume listening (newborn). I haven’t intentionally watched a movie at -25 or -30 in years, but with the Crowson’s running 15dB hot in the DEQ up to 40Hz and crossed over at 65Hz, it’s really not that bad.

Without the Crowson on, even running the subs +8dB hot with XT32 DEQ on, there’s almost no TR at -25 to -30...especially after removing two nearfield MBMs, two 18” subwoofers, and the miniDSP house curve. Once again, these MA are making a huge impact in the viewing experience.

Anyone have a ballpark number for the iNukeDSP processing delay? When I was using the miniDSP, it was 8ms for the simple PEQ I ran, but I know they can vary. I added an 8ms delay and will start from there.
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Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
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post #1259 of 2451 Old 12-24-2017, 06:10 PM
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After significant system changes, I finally adjusted my Crowson’s delay and cranked up the dynamic EQ on the iNuke 6K for optimal lower volume listening (newborn). I haven’t intentionally watched a movie at -25 or -30 in years, but with the Crowson’s running 15dB hot in the DEQ up to 40Hz and crossed over at 65Hz, it’s really not that bad.

Without the Crowson on, even running the subs +8dB hot with XT32 DEQ on, there’s almost no TR at -25 to -30...especially after removing two nearfield MBMs, two 18” subwoofers, and the miniDSP house curve. Once again, these MA are making a huge impact in the viewing experience.

Anyone have a ballpark number for the iNukeDSP processing delay? When I was using the miniDSP, it was 8ms for the simple PEQ I ran, but I know they can vary. I added an 8ms delay and will start from there.
Shreds tested the 6000DSP and found the latency to be only 0.5ms no matter how many filters were enabled:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post54635152

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #1260 of 2451 Old 12-24-2017, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Shreds tested the 6000DSP and found the latency to be only 0.5ms no matter how many filters were enabled:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post54635152


Wow, that is low! Thanks

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
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