The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread. - Page 60 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1771 of 2451 Old 01-16-2019, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Did a quick test on the low-low LPF some of you guys are using n your MA’s.

Short version: it felt neutered!

So my normal setting is 80hz LPF, and 14dB Low shelf at 17hz and -5dB level on the Minidsp Output channel.

So i tried a 30hz LPF, NO LS and up to +12dB on the output channel.

I don’t know, you are missing som much of the upper LFE band with that low LPF when switching between them, it is not subtle either, it is like turning off halv your subs.

More testing required, but not optimistic so far...
I think it all comes down to how much TR your getting from your VNFs, especially from 20-30hz and above as well as how your seating responds to it (maybe even if your on concrete or suspended floor) and of course subjectivity as to how much feel you like at certain frequencies.

All that will probably very much decide on just how much you want the MAs producing TR at above 20hz or so and will probably vary from individual to individual and system to system to suit their preferences.

All that said, for me I'm finding with the LPF down low at 22hz or so with a mild 12db/oct slope on the MA's and combined with the VNFs and their above 20hz TR feel, it feels the most natural and level balanced at all frequencies for TR when running together. If I get too much above 20hz with the MAs in combination, it just becomes distracting with too much compared to the ULF TR and out of balance. So a balanced feel in TR across the whole frequency range is what I'm after here, as I think we all are. I think one just has to mess with it enough to find what settings work best with their setup in their systems to achieve this. You may have yours spot on for what you like already with your 80hz LPF and low shelved at 17hz. Sounds like it and very cool if this is the case! Thanks for letting us know what you thought about it so far though, I like to hear about it all

Also, inverting your MA's may be great for aligning TR for all bass frequencies too in your system, not just because it didn't work on mine. Only testing will tell.
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post #1772 of 2451 Old 01-16-2019, 11:30 AM
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Has anyone tested how much delay the crowson d501 adds? I think the minidsp itself is 2ms? Just curious if anyone knew or has tested it?

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post #1773 of 2451 Old 01-16-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Incredibly helpful, thanks!

Understanding that you don't utilize any type of plywood platform, do you have problems with furniture shifting around after weeks/months of in and out of seating?

That would be awesome if you wouldn't mind grabbing a couple pics so I can see the way you have the MA positioned/installed right now as you mention you are very happy with your current positioning. That would be incredibly helpful as it looks to me that your seating is similar framework to mine and would give me a great place to start.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Room looks great BTW! Jealous of those NF SW!
No prob! Glad it helped!!

Well, as far as the seating shifting around, not really at all, except may a little over time on the left seat (that only has one arm) that just butts up to the two arm seat IF I don't connect it to the 2 arm chair. I just use a clamp (clamped down really tight and works great, probably a better way but this is quick and easy) to connect them together. They are pretty heavy seats too (probably like yours) so they don't move to easily actually. Like connected, the two seats are more like one and the 2 MAs and 2 BKs under each seat (plus the VNF's behind each) effect both seats as well, at least somewhat. What is primarily under each seat with the MA's and BK's still primarily effect that seat though, and same with the VNF's behind that particular seat if that makes sense. It all helps and adds up though, but still ...

Also I just leave my seats in recline mode at all times and just unplug them, killing the lights in the armrests. They are distracting in a blacked out room when watching a movie. That and I have them exactly where I want them (about an a half inch from full recline). I'm probably the only one on AVS that does this, buy hey it works great and I really have no need to every sit them up straight, as this is how I watch movies and is just as easy to climb into it in the relined position This puts the seat back exactly where I want it in relation to the driver from the sub, about a 1/2" away here at the top edge of the sub, and about an inch away from the bottom bar brace of the seat that goes all the way across at the bottom of the seat.

Yeah I think our seats are pretty similar, so might work great on yours as well.

Here's a few pics I snagged for you that may help give a better idea ...

I pulled the 18" sub back to try to show you what's going on underneath the best I could ..


If you look closely, the MA's are under the little plastic feet on the inner framing of the chair, keeping the MAs from touching directly to the metal frame. Plywood would work too if you don't have the plastic feet in the right spot...


And then a shot form down under along the floor for another angle. It also shows the driver of the sub about an inch away from the support bar on the back of the chair down low. It looks closer than 1", but the camera just makes it look like that. This is critical though for it to not be too close and allow excursion of the driver on heavy ULF scenes but still be close enough to get the FULL benefit and effect of a Very Near Field sub.


Here is how I have the front as well that might give you an idea on how I leveled it up and used the isolators. I used big washers to get more heght to match the MA's, plus the isolator feet on top of a piece of cut plywood ...


And one with the seats clamped together to make them more like one ..



Thanks for the comments on the room!! I've put a lot of work into it to get it like I want it for darkness and setup of everything. Its dark and small, but does just what I wanted it to do, which is fully immerse me in video, bass (Impact and TR), as well as the surround sound with Atmos etc.

And about the NF subs, ya know what. I wouldn't trade them for anything or never want to be without them. I'd even take them over the MAs for a lot of reasons if I had to choose between them or the MA's. They are that capable down into the singles for TR, plus bring the weight, fullness, pressure and midbass slam to get with it. Luckily I don't have to choose and can use both, and they combine wonderfully to bring it that much harder, while still feeling like its coming from the subs, or better yet from what going on bass wise on screen for real in the room (not localized).

If you can add some VNF subs behind you eventually in addition to your MAs, highly recommended if you like a lot of Impact as well as a lot of TR

Hope this can help a little more! There is also one link that I wanted to link to about the positioning of the MA's that I used like Coolrda did. When I get a chance this afternoon, I'll find it and come back and edit this post to include it. EDIT: Ok here is that link to show what it looks like under the seats for another view that may help as well. Coolrda's seats are just like mine (HT Design Pembrokes) and may be real similar to yours underneath as well. He ended up liking the MA's way better positioned on the insides (blue markers, not the red) vs under the armrests. And I totally agree after trying them both ways. A large piece of plywood underneath may work great to cover all seats as well, but if you don't want to do this and want to do it like we did, it works great, especially with two MA's per seat. Link to his post in this thread with pics is HERE

Cheers mate!
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post #1774 of 2451 Old 01-16-2019, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Did a quick test on the low-low LPF some of you guys are using n your MA’s.

Short version: it felt neutered!

So my normal setting is 80hz LPF, and 14dB Low shelf at 17hz and -5dB level on the Minidsp Output channel.

So i tried a 30hz LPF, NO LS and up to +12dB on the output channel.

I don’t know, you are missing som much of the upper LFE band with that low LPF when switching between them, it is not subtle either, it is like turning off halv your subs.

More testing required, but not optimistic so far...

Do you have a VNF sub(s)? I've had a Crowson for a very long time, before I had mine. Back then I didn't like using a LPF on the Crowson but ever since I got the sub I prefer to have the Crowson cover only around 20hz and down.
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post #1775 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 06:44 AM
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I’ll have to try a lower LPF and see how I like it.

I originally had my Crowson’s at a LPF 60Hz for about a year, then dropped them to 40Hz for maybe 6 months and realized they weren’t adding any more TR anyway in addition to my farfield subs. Since adding the 2 VNF subs last year, I did some A/B testing and realized the nearfields really bring excellent TR down to 20-25Hz or so, and was shocked just how much they added on their own when I thought the Crowson’s were hitting hard and doing a lot of the heavy lifting the whole time.

I did prefer the larger bandwidth when I had the iNuke DEQ enabled for lower volume listening, but since adding so many BEQ tracks lately I disabled the Dynamic EQ on the MA’s. This week I’ll try a 25-30Hz filter and crank up the house curve on the MA’s and try some demo material.

Looking at houses this year and might redo my whole setup if I switch to sealed subs, but I’m not sure if I can sacrifice that brutal TR ported brings around tuning. If I get into a much smaller room maybe the trade off would be worth it. None of my current DIY subs lend themselves well to a potent sealed configuration for ULF so it’ll be a lot of wasted materials.
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post #1776 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Do you have a VNF sub(s)? I've had a Crowson for a very long time, before I had mine. Back then I didn't like using a LPF on the Crowson but ever since I got the sub I prefer to have the Crowson cover only around 20hz and down.
Yup




Ok, my last test was with music, so now i tried with movies instead.

I just jumped in:

Changed the AVR sub1out (farfields) distance from 12.5ft to max allowed(in my setup) 22.1ft and then added it back in the minidsp farfield output channel as 9.7ft=8.5ms.
Then set MA (also on the Sub1 channel) delay to 0 in the Mindsp and in phase, to gain negative delay.

Did the previous mentioned changes to the MA: LPF from 80hz to 30hz, no LS(from 14dBLS) and level from -6dB to +4dB( and in-phase).

I tested with the first scene from Predator(2018), the spaceship crash, as it has a lot of cool ULF espesially with BEQ.

During this test, by seperating the NF, i noticed they were shoving signs of being overpowered in the ULF, so i ended up removing a 8dB LS and entered a 15hz HPF to relieve them of the lowest notes.

End result: well, this was only done quickly and by the ol’ buttmeter, but i think we are on to something here

The timing change on the MA’s seem to make them more coherent, the low-low LPF made the MA’s more balanced, and giving the NF a bit less ULF made them sound cleaner. All improvements together made a pretty noticable impact.

I have been thinking lately to do all of the sub work/EQ all over again, start from scratch,with everything learned since i did it last, and all this new info lately have only confirmed the need for it But i need to wait for when i have the house to my self for a day(at least, LOL). Ahh, fun times...
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post #1777 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 10:30 AM
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^^^

Happy to hear it! I only wish we could achieve more negative delay. I hate not even knowing how much better it would be if I could get enough negative delay to actually properly time-align them. It's making me wish I went with a pre-pro and amp approach rather than AVR.

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post #1778 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 10:46 AM
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Yamaha AVR's have 0-80 feet adjustability

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post #1779 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
Yamaha AVR's have 0-80 feet adjustability
Do you know what they allow for differential between shortest and longest speaker distance?

Denons, for example, have 0-75 feet adjustability, except they won't allow the longest speaker distance to be more than 20' longer than the shortest speaker distance. They will allow you to specify something longer, but if you leave the screen and go back it will have reduced it. I assume this is because they have an inherent delay limit.

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post #1780 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Do you know what they allow for differential between shortest and longest speaker distance?

Denons, for example, have 0-75 feet adjustability, except they won't allow the longest speaker distance to be more than 20' longer than the shortest speaker distance. They will allow you to specify something longer, but if you leave the screen and go back it will have reduced it. I assume this is because they have an inherent delay limit.
I just recall the range seemed excessive for most rooms.
It's probably the same as Denon/Marantz, I'll have to check it later.

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post #1781 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 11:46 AM
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Ok so, I got a nearly unaltered response now from the AVR with Audy ON for the MAs and BKs. The miniDSP doesn't have USB streaming capability on my 10x10hd like the 2x4hd does, so I used at Behringer 202 sound card with an Analog RCA connection to get the reading. Thanks @Nalleh for the help and suggestion on using the 202 sound card as well as @aron7awal for showing this method! Much appreciated!

As you can probably see, Audy effected it some under 20hz around 15hz, a big dip around 24hz and a HUGE boost from abut 27-37hz to help correct my subs (30hz problem area in my room without enough sub locations). I could really feel that 30hz area with Audy ON through the MA's with it boosting it this much, even with the LPF BW12db/oct @22hz. It was just WAY too much in this area. I could also feel that it was thinner in the 15hz and 24hz range compared to running NO Audy on them, making them way more balanced feeling in all areas with no correction on them with Audy OFF. More like they felt through the Oppos subout too that is unaltered.

This should fix me right up I think to have a pretty darn unaltered signal to the MA's (and BK LFE's) with them ran though the AVR subout now (tied into the subout in the mini from the FF's subout on the AVR). I used to run them though the OPPO up until just a couple of days ago, but really like it so far though the AVR, plus it allows me to get the negative delay to better time align them on all frequencies. Could probably still use more negative delay (limited by the Denon like is being talked about now), but seems pretty darn good now, waaaaaaaay better than it was so I think it's pretty close (at least in the frequencies I use the MA's).

The BLUE line (corrected to undo Audy with PEQ) now matches the RED line (No Audy correction) pretty well now. Probably not quite as good as totally unaltered, but pretty close. When I get a few more subs hopefully in the near future I should be able to place them to take care of that 30hz problem area so it want require any boost from Audy. That'll help cut down a LOT on what I need to undo for close to an unaltered signal, even though I have the MAs doing way more under 20hz than above with the LPF in place. Or when I get the other subs, I may just be able to totally undo Audy correction on the subs with the MultiEQ Audy App like Nalleh does and just use manual on the subs.

These are with no LPF applied to see the full range

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post #1782 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 12:20 PM
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If you can add some VNF subs behind you eventually in addition to your MAs, highly recommended if you like a lot of Impact as well as a lot of TR
Buger this is great thanks for the insight!

VNF subs are not going to happen for me as I have an aisle behind my front and rear row of seats. I'll have to settle for the next best thing which is MA along with my 6 Farfield ported subs behind the screen.

In your opinion, will I be able to balance the MA to feel natural when used in conjunction with my subwoofers?

The info you provided will be incredibly helpful if I pull the trigger and buy these. Looks like you are recommending 2 MA per seat placed along the cross bar and not under armrests. I still have more research to do but want to thank you for the help!
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post #1783 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 01:10 PM
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Buger this is great thanks for the insight!

VNF subs are not going to happen for me as I have an aisle behind my front and rear row of seats. I'll have to settle for the next best thing which is MA along with my 6 Farfield ported subs behind the screen.

In your opinion, will I be able to balance the MA to feel natural when used in conjunction with my subwoofers?

The info you provided will be incredibly helpful if I pull the trigger and buy these. Looks like you are recommending 2 MA per seat placed along the cross bar and not under armrests. I still have more research to do but want to thank you for the help!
No prob man!

As far as balancing them to feel natural with the subwoofer, oh definitely. The MA's feel so similar to the subs and very natural, it makes them way easier than say BK's IMO. Just have to get the levels set where you like and timing so they blend in well. They'll make you feel like you added more subs.

Well that would be awesome 2 MA's per chair, but that's a lot of MAs if you do that for all 6 of your seats, or even just the front row of 3. Depending on how they feel in your seats under the armrests or inner frame, that may be just as good under the arm rests and then you could use 4 per the 3 seats in the front row (one under each arm rest), instead of 6 (2 for each under the inner frame). Or you may be able to do one under each seat under the middle inner frame (or under a large piece of plywood under all 3 seats to connect them, putting 1 MA under each seat).

More choices, but all could would great. Certain routes may be a lot cheaper than others, especially if you want to do all 6 seats to experience MA's.

Damn nice room BTW and seating!! Just checked out some of your build right quick. You know, if you do decide you want some VNF subs or one behind you middle seat in the front row (where you'll be setting most of the time I'm sure ) , you can probably fit one in there with not too much problem and still allow enough room behind it to get into the second row of seats easy enough if you build an angled box with less depth like @carp did with his. Go check out his thread room thread, he's got some pictures of it I think in his first post. But then again, maybe it would take up too much space and cobble up your beautiful space, but thought I'd mention it

I really do think you'll love what the MA's add to the experience once integrated. I don't think I've really heard of anyone not liking them, even guys with some pretty mega sub systems to begin with.
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post #1784 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 01:49 PM
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No prob man!

As far as balancing them to feel natural with the subwoofer, oh definitely. The MA's feel so similar to the subs and very natural, it makes them way easier than say BK's IMO. Just have to get the levels set where you like and timing so they blend in well. They'll make you feel like you added more subs.
Great! I love my home theater but the concrete floor pulls a bunch of TR out of the experience. Plus, atleast ATM, I don't have any NFS. To me the MA's are a logical step as they will go a long way to adding TR to the room.

To be certain, you told me to consider Crowsons firstly, over BK correct? In other words, if I only choose one, it would be the Crowsons in your opinion correct?

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Well that would be awesome 2 MA's per chair, but that's a lot of MAs if you do that for all 6 of your seats, or even just the front row of 3. Depending on how they feel in your seats under the armrests or inner frame, that may be just as good under the arm rests and then you could use 4 per the 3 seats in the front row (one under each arm rest), instead of 6 (2 for each under the inner frame). Or you may be able to do one under each seat under the middle inner frame (or under a large piece of plywood under all 3 seats to connect them, putting 1 MA under each seat).
True!! I think what I'll do is consider the package with 4 MA and the amp. Then I will have some options to try in front row and hopefully find a way to get it done with only 1 MA per chair. I'm thinking middle inner frame as you mentioned.

Unfortunately, its gonna cost me approx 2" row height - (2) layers 3/8" plywood (one on carpet under MA and one under frame on top of MA) plus the 1" tk MA. Actually, if I remove the stock feet from the seats and replace with isolators/washers as you've done I can prob save 1/2" off that - so only gaining 1.5" row height. I have to look into this but that shouldn't cause any major issues for viewing from back row.

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Damn nice room BTW and seating!! Just checked out some of your build right quick. You know, if you do decide you want some VNF subs or one behind you middle seat in the front row (where you'll be setting most of the time I'm sure ) , you can probably fit one in there with not too much problem and still allow enough room behind it to get into the second row of seats easy enough if you build an angled box with less depth like @carp did with his. Go check out his thread room thread, he's got some pictures of it I think in his first post. But then again, maybe it would take up too much space and cobble up your beautiful space, but thought I'd mention it
haha you aren't letting me off the hook with those VNF's. This is a good idea, i'll check it out! I would really like to have VNF subs - I can only imagine how much TR they add.

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I really do think you'll love what the MA's add to the experience once integrated. I don't think I've really heard of anyone not liking them, even guys with some pretty mega sub systems to begin with.
I trust you are correct! Anxious to try it out and get back with impressions!
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post #1785 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 05:32 PM
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Do you know what they allow for differential between shortest and longest speaker distance?

Denons, for example, have 0-75 feet adjustability, except they won't allow the longest speaker distance to be more than 20' longer than the shortest speaker distance. They will allow you to specify something longer, but if you leave the screen and go back it will have reduced it. I assume this is because they have an inherent delay limit.
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I just recall the range seemed excessive for most rooms.
It's probably the same as Denon/Marantz, I'll have to check it later.
I just tried setting my Front subs to 80 feet, Rear subs (near field) to 1 foot and it worked for my Yamaha.
Re-booted the system and it's still unchanged, will check again later but all good after 10 minutes.



After a little tweaking with my butt-o-meter,
I ended up with 11' Front Sub distance, Crowson's at 70'

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post #1786 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 07:37 PM
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I just tried setting my Front subs to 80 feet, Rear subs (near field) to 1 foot and it worked for my Yamaha.
Re-booted the system and it's still unchanged, will check again later but all good after 10 minutes.
That is awesome for you! I wish I had a Yamaha now.
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post #1787 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 08:00 PM
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Great! I love my home theater but the concrete floor pulls a bunch of TR out of the experience. Plus, atleast ATM, I don't have any NFS. To me the MA's are a logical step as they will go a long way to adding TR to the room.

To be certain, you told me to consider Crowsons firstly, over BK correct? In other words, if I only choose one, it would be the Crowsons in your opinion correct?

True!! I think what I'll do is consider the package with 4 MA and the amp. Then I will have some options to try in front row and hopefully find a way to get it done with only 1 MA per chair. I'm thinking middle inner frame as you mentioned.

Unfortunately, its gonna cost me approx 2" row height - (2) layers 3/8" plywood (one on carpet under MA and one under frame on top of MA) plus the 1" tk MA. Actually, if I remove the stock feet from the seats and replace with isolators/washers as you've done I can prob save 1/2" off that - so only gaining 1.5" row height. I have to look into this but that shouldn't cause any major issues for viewing from back row.

haha you aren't letting me off the hook with those VNF's. This is a good idea, i'll check it out! I would really like to have VNF subs - I can only imagine how much TR they add.

I trust you are correct! Anxious to try it out and get back with impressions!
Yeah I'd go with the Crowsons. They are the easiest to get to feel most natural and definitely easiest to setup, just slip them under where you want them, as opposed to bolting the rather large and heavy BK's to the underside of your seat frame, if they'll even fit. They worked perfectly in the space available on mine and may on yours too, but I think you'll be happiest with the Crowsons, first. The BK's are awesome too and wicked good in certain ways, just a little different and harder to get set right IME. Plus the BK's aren't great under 8-10hz, and MA's are. They can be amazing from 10hz to about 27ish hz though. They can give me a certain feel that the MA's can't sometimes, which is why I have them too.

lol about the VNF's (yeah I do love what they can do so thought I'd throw that smaller angled option out there as well), if you can make them or one work behind you, cool, if not then the MA's can and do still add so much. Its all good

Also, sounds like a good plan you have with the 4 MA's first to see what works best on your front row.
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post #1788 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 08:02 PM
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That is awesome for you! I wish I had a Yamaha now.
Guess I'll be loading up the VibSensor for some testing this weekend.

I played with the app a few times about a year ago, but never with my Crowsons in the chain.
I thought I had everything dialed in perfectly, but now you guys have me second guessing.

Have to remember to pick up a bag-o-rice on the way home tomorrow
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post #1789 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 08:55 PM
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Cool, sounds like some of you guys are getting ready to do some VibSensing I know Nalleh is a seasoned vet with VS, and also sounds like Pio may have dabbled with it a while back as well. Not sure if Aron has used it or not yet.

I'm not as much of an expert VSer as coolrda and a few other in the VS thread, but have done my far share and can be pretty fun and pretty easy too once you get everything setup and take a few measurements.

Over in the 'Subwoofer comparison thread' about 3 weeks ago we did some VSing (not with the MA's), but with the subs only to help with the comparisons. To try to make it easier since some of those folks haven't really heard of VS or ever used it, I tried to lay out some easy steps to get started and take some readings, as well as how to read some of it. Some of you guys may not need it, but some may find it helpful though if your not real familiar with VS yet. A link to that post is HERE. Just scroll down a bit in the post for the list of steps.

White Noise (there is a link in that post to that as well) could be a really good one to see if the MA's are combining well with the subs at all the different frequencies. Take a measurement with the Subs only first, then the MA's only, and then combined. Tweak distance and repeat. Same with sines at different frequencies, or some of your favorite time stamps that have good ULF and LF. Also a REW sweep might be great too.
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post #1790 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 09:13 PM
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Cool, sounds like some of you guys are getting ready to do some VibSensing I know Nalleh is a seasoned vet with VS, and also sounds like Pio may have dabbled with it a while back as well. Not sure if Aron has used it or not yet.
I did some really quick testing tonight with 0-50Hz white noise and simply compared my current setup with the maximum 7.5 of negative delay on my MAs, and a test of the subs and MAs with the same delay. I could see a null around maybe 12Hz with the same delay, and it was definitely significantly better with the negative delay.

I didn't have enough time to do any thorough testing, but I definitely want to test subs only and MAs only along with both combined (and different delays) to get some good data. I finally got my bag of rice tonight. It's easy to get parts for speakers and subs around here, but man, tough to get my hands on some rice! Thank god for my lovely wife picking it up for me, or I might have had to step foot in a grocery store! Uncle Ben never felt so much TR!

My UM18s and flatpacks came in this week too, so I've got some serious work to do! I'm definitely going to test them in a few spots VNF, and I'm seriously considering bypassing the huge ported sub riser idea my wife hates and going with the small sealed angled VNF right behind. My two monster 11.5Hz ported, the two new UM18s under the L and R, and then future builds of the angled VNF behind, and maybe even replace the two end tables with a couple more! Then I'm done...maybe...no promises.
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post #1791 of 2451 Old 01-17-2019, 10:16 PM
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I did some really quick testing tonight with 0-50Hz white noise and simply compared my current setup with the maximum 7.5 of negative delay on my MAs, and a test of the subs and MAs with the same delay. I could see a null around maybe 12Hz with the same delay, and it was definitely significantly better with the negative delay.

I didn't have enough time to do any thorough testing, but I definitely want to test subs only and MAs only along with both combined (and different delays) to get some good data. I finally got my bag of rice tonight. It's easy to get parts for speakers and subs around here, but man, tough to get my hands on some rice! Thank god for my lovely wife picking it up for me, or I might have had to step foot in a grocery store! Uncle Ben never felt so much TR!

My UM18s and flatpacks came in this week too, so I've got some serious work to do! I'm definitely going to test them in a few spots VNF, and I'm seriously considering bypassing the huge ported sub riser idea my wife hates and going with the small sealed angled VNF right behind. My two monster 11.5Hz ported, the two new UM18s under the L and R, and then future builds of the angled VNF behind, and maybe even replace the two end tables with a couple more! Then I'm done...maybe...no promises.
Cool! Crazy what increasing the negative delay can do huh! I was blown away with the difference I 'felt' with adding in the delay with a handful of frequencies from 12 to 30hz. The higher I got in negative delay, the better the subs and MA's continued to combine from low to high. It really is a shame that we are limited to 20ms over from the shortest distance speaker!

So mine was just seat of the pants the other day for more quick and dirty, but I could so easily tell. The VS would be awesome as well, especially if we could go higher in negative delay and really get it fine tuned, telling us exactly where it combines the very best at all frequencies and then starts getting more and more out of line again when you start getting too much delay.

LOL on the rice!

Yeah man, you get all that done with the subs you described, that's gonna be one hell of mean TR and Impact crazy bass system that goes deep into the singles with plenty of SPL capability. Not that what you have now isn't awesome, but ya know, it can always be better right

EDIT: Awesome that you got your UM-18's with flatpacks in! I might be ordering the same thing soon (2 of them). The guy I was buying the 2 DS4-18's from is flaking out on me or something and wont send me an invoice and get them shipped. Will give him over the weekend I guess, then I think I'm gonna just order what you did before they go on backorder again (wouldn't surprise me if it happens fairly soon). I did buy a new Inuke NU6000DSP to match my other two a few days ago though for $290, so am glad about that. One 6K Powers 2 UM-18's or 2 DS4-18s just about perfectly (maybe a little more with what they actually give per channel at 4 ohms, about 1200w I think it was proved at one point) . It should be here be here beginning part of this next week.
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post #1792 of 2451 Old 01-18-2019, 03:09 AM
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I'm using my second sub out on my Yamaha for my Crowson amp and have settled on a distance of 60 feet and channel level at "0", crossover on the Crowson amp is set as low as it will go which is 40 Hz and the Intensity is set at 21. My sub connected at the first sub out was set at 10.6 feet by YPAO and I did not alter that. The results are very good, but I have to follow Pio's direction and learn how to use the Vibsensor app and chart some results to verify.
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post #1793 of 2451 Old 01-18-2019, 07:25 AM
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Yeah I'd go with the Crowsons. They are the easiest to get to feel most natural and definitely easiest to setup, just slip them under where you want them, as opposed to bolting the rather large and heavy BK's to the underside of your seat frame, if they'll even fit. They worked perfectly in the space available on mine and may on yours too, but I think you'll be happiest with the Crowsons, first. The BK's are awesome too and wicked good in certain ways, just a little different and harder to get set right IME. Plus the BK's aren't great under 8-10hz, and MA's are. They can be amazing from 10hz to about 27ish hz though. They can give me a certain feel that the MA's can't sometimes, which is why I have them too.

lol about the VNF's (yeah I do love what they can do so thought I'd throw that smaller angled option out there as well), if you can make them or one work behind you, cool, if not then the MA's can and do still add so much. Its all good

Also, sounds like a good plan you have with the 4 MA's first to see what works best on your front row.
Incredibly helpful thanks again Buger. My piggy bank is looking nervous ATM thanks to you haha!
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post #1794 of 2451 Old 01-25-2019, 05:53 PM
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Hi Everybody,


I'm new to setting up Crowsons, but I've been following the thread for a while now and I have a few questions. I'm looking to hook up two Crowsons for now, with a possibility of going to four in the future. These will be run through a minidsp 2x4HD box, so I don't need DSP capability in the amp.



Outside of cost, how would you compare the Crowson amp to the Behringer NX 6000? I've read about the fan noise and the mods to take care of that, but are there other features of Crowson amp worth considering?


Is the new NX4-6000 worth considering for this application?


Thanks.
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post #1795 of 2451 Old 01-26-2019, 10:45 AM
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Outside of cost, how would you compare the Crowson amp to the Behringer NX 6000? I've read about the fan noise and the mods to take care of that, but are there other features of Crowson amp worth considering?

Is the new NX4-6000 worth considering for this application?
It is nice that the Crowson amp is silent, if you're going to have it close to you.

The fan noise on the Behringer amps is obnoxious, but if you're willing to do the fan mod, they are great once modded. I modded a NX3000D this morning, and modded my NU6000DSP previously, with the Noctua FLX fans.

The NX4-6000 is overpowered for 4 MAs, but that's not necessarily a bad thing if you want to use other channel(s) for subs. If you're only looking to power the 4 MAs, you could certainly step down to the 3000 and still have plenty of power.
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post #1796 of 2451 Old 01-26-2019, 12:00 PM
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^^ Yeah, i have recently blown two!! MA’s using a NU6K on 4 MA’s, but then again i have run them HARD for three years. But if you plan on similar amplification, be aware that they CAN blow the Crowsons.
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post #1797 of 2451 Old 01-26-2019, 07:25 PM
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^^ Yeah, i have recently blown two!! MA’s using a NU6K on 4 MA’s, but then again i have run them HARD for three years. But if you plan on similar amplification, be aware that they CAN blow the Crowsons.
What are the symptoms when you damage them? I think I remember you saying they still work, but you can tell they are blown/damaged?

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post #1798 of 2451 Old 01-26-2019, 07:58 PM
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Thank you both, I'll be careful. Randolf at Crowson had also warned me about not over powering them. I was considering how useful the remote control of the presets in the Crowson amp would be, but since I'll control everything from the MiniDsp units, I don't know that I would end up using it. Have you found any need for it?
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post #1799 of 2451 Old 01-26-2019, 07:59 PM
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What are the symptoms when you damage them? I think I remember you saying they still work, but you can tell they are blown/damaged?
Please don’t tell me you have blown one too ??

Yeah, they still work, measure the correct ohms and on low level nothing seems wrong. But if you turn it up, like movie level, it makes a easy audiable clacking noise, kind of. Sounds like a loose bolt in the couch frame or something like that. Normally they are silent in operation, so it is easy to hear.
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post #1800 of 2451 Old 01-26-2019, 08:31 PM
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Please don’t tell me you have blown one too ??

Yeah, they still work, measure the correct ohms and on low level nothing seems wrong. But if you turn it up, like movie level, it makes a easy audiable clacking noise, kind of. Sounds like a loose bolt in the couch frame or something like that. Normally they are silent in operation, so it is easy to hear.
Does it feel any different or just make the sound? I'm a bit worried that what I was thinking was a bad resonance in my couch could possibly be this issue.

I had found a level that completely prevented it from happening (successfully for months), but today I noticed it happening a few times and it confused me because it had never happened at this level. It even made me double-check the level just to be sure.

Note that I am using the Crowson amp so too much power is certainly not the cause in my case, if this is in fact the same issue. I've had them for about 13 months, and I have 4 MAs on a 2-seat reclining couch.

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Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

Last edited by aron7awol; 01-26-2019 at 08:34 PM.
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